Quote from: hollingsworth

Alan:

Quote

If I were in a part of the world where we were being persecuted by Muslims or Jews (as it probably will be in Britain soon enough...) I still wouldn't go to the Novus Ordo. Even if they tried to force us under pain of death I believe the only moral option would be to accept martyrdom.  

And do you think Bp. Williamson would encourage you to do any differently?  This whole thread has been about H.E. allegedly going soft on the NO Mass.  Has he said anything that would suggest to you, that in the face of persecution and death, he would advise you to relent and to attend the New Mass?

If I decided that it would 'nourish my faith' in those circuмstances, then why not?

Perhaps, for some of us, attending the NO doesn't have so much to do with nourishment as it has to do with not wanting to offend God by being a home-aloner. It's a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday. Most here probably wouldn't have a problem with this, but I'd rather attend a dumbed-down bare-bones peace-and-luv hippie Mass than stay at home. I know this will sound ridiculous to most here. Especially the SV's.

I can't believe the excuses and handwringing from the R&R crowd on this.  You all sound just like the Novus Ordites who get all up in arms when a trad dares to criticize their beloved "pope".   What a joke.

I for one support Bishop Williamson but I am critical of him here and am not making excuses for him.

I for one support Bishop Williamson but I am critical of him here and am not making excuses for him.

I know Matto, but you also do not follow the R&R position.[/quote]
Yes. But I do respect Bishop Williamson and If I had the option, I would go to his Mass  even though I disagree with him on this issue.

Perhaps, for some of us, attending the NO doesn't have so much to do with nourishment as it has to do with not wanting to offend God by being a home-aloner. It's a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sunday. Most here probably wouldn't have a problem with this, but I'd rather attend a dumbed-down bare-bones peace-and-luv hippie Mass than stay at home. I know this will sound ridiculous to most here. Especially the SV's.

I used to attend the NO, sitting at the back, reading my missal, trying to ignore everything that was happening, so I could fulfill the obligation. Then it occurred to me that, by just being present from the Offertory until the Post Communion prayer I would also fulfill the obligation, but that that would just be fulfilling the letter of the law. I could fulfill the spirit of the law by reading the missal at home. The spirit of the law is to hallow the sabbath.

That said, I would never say, as some do, that one does not fulfill the obligation at the NO, nor that it is a mortal sin to attend. Maybe this is subjectivism, but I very much doubt that any trad who attends the NO does it for malicious reasons. They're desiring to hallow the sabbath. Subjective dispositions do count for something. If you can fulfill the obligation by reading the missal at home, you can fulfill it by reading the missal in a church while a Novus Ordo Mass is going on.

Maybe reading it in a church while the NO isn't going on might be an idea.

I can't believe the excuses and handwringing from the R&R crowd on this.  You all sound just like the Novus Ordites who get all up in arms when a trad dares to criticize their beloved "pope".   What a joke.

Glad you're posting again 2V.

How long were you a NOer and a willing participant in the new mass?

We're not talking about US going to the Novus Ordo. The classic SSPX, the Resistance, and Bishop Williamson are quite clear on this: the Novus Ordo is dangerous to the Faith, it was created to take away our Faith, and should be red-lighted. If you don't have a Tridentine Mass, you stay at home on Sunday.

Yes, he made an exception for one emotional woman who was *still in the Novus Ordo*. But how many of us does that describe?

Let's not intentionally confuse the issue, or confuse ourselves.

The lady that asked the question prefaced it by saying she goes to the Latin mass on Sundays and to the Novus Ordo during the week, she believes that the priest is reverent etc... so not a complete 'babe in the traditional woods' at all. I couldn't hear if she said where she goes to the TLM, it sounded like maybe SSPX by BP Williamson's answer.

Bishop Williamson also prefaced his answer by saying he was going to stick his neck out, way out. and someone can chop it off if they want. Fair enough, count me among the surprised that he is publicly 'yellow lighting' the Novus Ordo!

To quote him directly "the golden rule, the rule of rules is do whatever you need to nourish your faith". Apparently even going to a poisonous bastard rite of mass. What just eat around the poison?? OK then, at least we know clearly where BP Williamson stands on the Novus Ordo.

I can't help but wonder if BP Fellay had made these comments publicly,  how would some of the reaction here on this thread have been?

Quote from: Luker

I can't help but wonder if BP Fellay had made these comments publicly,  how would some of the reaction here on this thread have been?

Fellay did make a similar comment. He went to a Novus Ordo Mass in a convent or monastery and he said afterwards something like: that it was so reverent that if Archbishop Lefebvre saw this Mass he wouldn't have done what he did.
Afterwards I condemned him, though I don't remember what the reaction of others on the Catholic forums was. I would be surprised if others didn't condemn him also, but I honestly do not remember.

I remember this as well.  I don't remember specifically how individual posters responded.  Likely, I did not respond on the forum, but I remember thinking the very same thing I thought when Bishop Williamson said what he said.  

I was not edified by either bishop.

The bottom line is this:  if it's ok to attend the N.O. (even in remote circuмstances) then why are we traditionalists?

3 things to examine on the N.O.  Validity, Legality, Morality.  Forget the validity question.  It's doubtful if it's valid, but let's assume it is.  

Is it moral?  What's it's purpose?  I'd argue that communion in the hand being the sacrilege that it is, makes this "mass" as a whole an abomination and a blasphemous sacrilege, even if one is just "sitting there".  Can I just "sit there" and watch a black mass?  Can I just be "in the room" at a "gentleman's club" and not sin?  I don't think so.  

Finally, let me remind you all that when Cardinal Ottaviani wrote his "intervention" (at the request of + Lefebvre) he condemned it in it's "theologically purest" form.

Finally, is it legal?  Either Quo Primum is the law or it isn't.  There's no question that Benedict firmly stated that Quo Primum is legally in effect, with the 1962 missal as a lawful revision.  No one should question this.  Benedict also said that Paul VI's missal is NOT a revision of Quo Primum but a NEW missal.  Ergo, it is a parallel missal.

But Quo Primum does NOT ALLOW parallel missals, under pain of sin.  I quote:  

"...and I order them in virtue of holy obedience to say or sing the Mass according to the rite and manner I am presenting currently, ...  And you must not, when celebrating Mass, introduce any ceremonies or recite any other prayers, except those contained in my Missal."

The point is that the N.O. was legally created and promulgated.  But no one has to use it, no one is forced to use it, and no one CAN use it, under pain of sin.  This is the true diabolical genius of the N.O.!  A missal was created, legally, but it means nothing!  A parallel missal, with no purpose other than to confuse, coerce and destroy!

For 40 years, no traditionalist could make this argument because the question of the legal status of Quo Primum was in "limbo".  But this is no longer!  For, as Benedict clarified in his "motu" (which is a legal docuмent of the Church), Quo Primum is the valid law of the Church.  And it FORBIDS any other missal from being said, or it's a SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE AGAINST THE POPE.  

That's why I say that who or who isn't the current pope (if there is one) DOESN'T MATTER.  What matters is the CURRENT LAW IN FORCE.  And the current law FORBIDS the N.O. under pain of sin.