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Author Topic: Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass  (Read 36060 times)

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Offline PapalSupremacy

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Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2015, 08:34:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    I'm seeing some parallels here.

    Boston, KY has a visceral disgust for the SSPX, so they declare that SSPX Masses must be avoided without exception, and they actually will fervently criticize anyone who doesn't agree with them on this "red light" position.

    Novus Ordo Watch (and other bitter zeal sedevacantists) has a visceral disgust for the Novus Ordo, so they declare that the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid, the pope is "not the pope" (again, because they are viscerally turned off by him), and the Novus Ordo Mass is intrinsically evil, and must be avoided in 100% (not just 99.99%) of cases. And they will fervently criticize anyone who doesn't agree with them on this slightly-exaggerated position.

    We must reject error as part of our job of keeping the Faith. But if we exaggerate this or that truth, we distort it and we replace one error with another! We must be careful and prudent as we try to navigate these confusing times.


    Boston, KY fails on the principles. But we are not talking about that.

    If there is an error in the principles, find and correct the principles, refute the quote. Otherwise, I'm afraid you don't have a case. It is admirable that you wish to defend Bp. Williamson, but it is not admirable to defend him when he is wrong.
    He that reigneth on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and earth, has committed One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one alone upon earth, namely to Peter, the first of the apostles, and to Peter's


    Offline PapalSupremacy

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #16 on: July 21, 2015, 08:40:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: PapalSupremacy
    Matthew,

    They do not presume to think for God, they are merely applying Catholic principles to come to a conclusion. In fact, the NO Mass is intrinsically evil, and this was also taught by the Old SSPX:

    Quote
    "Now, even if one wanted to contest the heretical elements of the New Mass, the sole refusal to profess Catholic dogmas quintessential to the Mass renders the new liturgy deficient. It is like a captain who refuses to provide his shipmen with a proper diet. They soon become sick with scurvy due, not so much to direct poison, as from vitamin deficiency. Such is the New Mass. At best, it provides a deficient spiritual diet to the faithful. The correct definition of evil—lack of a due good—clearly shows that the New Mass is evil in and of itself regardless of the circuмstances. It is not evil by positive profession of heresy. It is evil by lacking what Catholic dogma should profess: the True Sacrifice, the Real Presence, the ministerial priesthood. This deficiency had already been denounced by Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci months before the New Mass was promulgated"
    (http://sspx.org/en/new-mass-legit)


    Quote
    If it's intrinsically evil, it can never do any good


    When it is valid, it is still the Sacrifice of Calvary made present on the altar, so graces can come from it, and probably do to those in ignorance. But having received the grace to know the truth of God's Holy Religion we cannot be excused like they are.

    Some people being emotional rather than rational is no excuse to resort to subjectivism. This only perpetuates their disordered way of thinking and acting. The charitable thing to do is to show them in a rational way where they are wrong and what is the correct action based on the correct principles.


    Do you know what intrinsically evil even means? I tried to explain it. It's when there is something in its essence that is positive evil, such that there is no circuмstance which could justify it. Abortion, for example. Or birth control. Or blasphemy.

    I never said the Novus Ordo isn't evil. Evil is a privation of good. Evil basically means defective. The SSPX quote was saying that the New Mass ITSELF was evil, not just the accidents like liturgical dancers or bad music. They never used the word "intrinsically evil" and there's a reason for that.

    But I'll excuse you because you might not have studied at a seminary, or formed the habits of precise thought that one learns there.


    Read the quotes Centro provided.
    Intrinsically evil means that the rite itself, as it was "promulgated", is evil. This means that every single NO Mass, even when said with piety and reverence, is evil in itself. This also means that "every single person must stay away from every single NO Mass", since we must never participate in evil, nor do evil so that good comes from it.
    He that reigneth on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and earth, has committed One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one alone upon earth, namely to Peter, the first of the apostles, and to Peter's


    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #17 on: July 21, 2015, 08:45:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: PapalSupremacy

    Boston, KY fails on the principles. But we are not talking about that.

    If there is an error in the principles, find and correct the principles, refute the quote. Otherwise, I'm afraid you don't have a case. It is admirable that you wish to defend Bp. Williamson, but it is not admirable to defend him when he is wrong.


    Whether Bishop Williamson is wrong is the subject of this thread. Of course I am only after the truth, as is the good bishop.

    I have nothing further to add at this time.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #18 on: July 21, 2015, 08:45:34 AM »
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  • "Our rejection of the Novus Ordo must be absolute... attend it?...only (as) for attending non-catholic functions ...(a) sin...if he is aware of (it's) nocivity ... If I were ever to say the New Mass, know that I would be committing a mortal sin..." (Fr James Peek, Holy Cross Seminary Bulletin, Sept. 18, 1996).



    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #19 on: July 21, 2015, 08:49:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica

    "Our rejection of the Novus Ordo must be absolute... attend it?...only (as) for attending non-catholic functions ...(a) sin...if he is aware of (it's) nocivity ... If I were ever to say the New Mass, know that I would be committing a mortal sin..." (Fr James Peek, Holy Cross Seminary Bulletin, Sept. 18, 1996).


    Now this is a contradiction with those other quotes.

    If it were truly "intrinsically evil" it would be sinful in all cases. Is abortion ever not a sin? What about blaspheming God? Certain things are BY THEIR VERY NATURE a sin, and that is the definition of intrinsically evil.
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    Offline Centroamerica

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #20 on: July 21, 2015, 08:51:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Centroamerica

    "Our rejection of the Novus Ordo must be absolute... attend it?...only (as) for attending non-catholic functions ...(a) sin...if he is aware of (it's) nocivity ... If I were ever to say the New Mass, know that I would be committing a mortal sin..." (Fr James Peek, Holy Cross Seminary Bulletin, Sept. 18, 1996).


    Now this is a contradiction with those other quotes.

    If it were truly "intrinsically evil" it would be sinful in all cases. Is abortion ever not a sin? What about blaspheming God? Certain things are BY THEIR VERY NATURE a sin, and that is the definition of intrinsically evil.



    Attend it as if it were a non-Catholic functions...

    If one is aware of its evil one commits a mortal sin...

    To say the New Mass is an objective mortal sin.  

    I see no contradiction.  Anyone like you or myself that knows Fr. Peek knows that he is pretty insistent in saying that one must never attend the Bastard rite.  The most that is permissible is to attend as an observer, which technically is not attending at all.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline PapalSupremacy

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #21 on: July 21, 2015, 08:59:16 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Centroamerica

    "Our rejection of the Novus Ordo must be absolute... attend it?...only (as) for attending non-catholic functions ...(a) sin...if he is aware of (it's) nocivity ... If I were ever to say the New Mass, know that I would be committing a mortal sin..." (Fr James Peek, Holy Cross Seminary Bulletin, Sept. 18, 1996).


    If it were truly "intrinsically evil" it would be sinful in all cases. Is abortion ever not a sin? What about blaspheming God? Certain things are BY THEIR VERY NATURE a sin, and that is the definition of intrinsically evil.


    It is sinful in all cases, but the individual person may not be guilty of the sin, or only partially guilty. For example, a small child or a mentally handicapped person who hears a blasphemy against God and keeps repeating it is not guilty of the sin, even though the act is intrinsically evil.
    He that reigneth on high, to whom is given all power in heaven and earth, has committed One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, to one alone upon earth, namely to Peter, the first of the apostles, and to Peter's

    Offline CathMomof7

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 09:02:14 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson is living in the 2% world.  This is a very dangerous place to live and, in his case, a very dangerous place from which to teach. Over the course of history, living in the 2% world, or the "exception to the rule" world has gotten a great many people into trouble.

    Publicly, he should NEVER tell a person that it is safe to go to Novus Ordo.  Notice, I said PUBLICLY.  When he says this out loud and recorded this gives the impression to 98% of people that it is safe to go to Novus Ordo under certain circuмstances.  As we are humans, those "certain circuмstances" almost always apply to us.  For example, I know a priest ordained in 1963.  He is very old now from a family with several religious.  He was our Novus Ordo priest and I never doubted once that he was a priest or that his intentions at the Mass were proper.  When we discovered tradition, we lingered in Novus Ordo precisely because of this position---it can't be all bad, because he is a priest and he means well.  Almost every person I know has a story similar to this one.  I know people who go to both SSPX and Novus Ordo because of their mothers are there, their brother is a NO priest, and just like the lady in the video, because there is a "reverent" NO daily Mass and daily Mass is important for there spiritual "ritual."

    But this issue is serious.  Either the Novus Ordo is good or it is bad.  This is simply logic.  If we cannot say this, then how can we say that we shouldn't go to Protestant services?  This is not a food for our body, this is food for our souls, that which we are supposed to guard and protect above all things.  It is our soul that is in danger, not our bodies.

    Having said that, Bishop Williamson could have taken this woman in PRIVATE and discussed her particular situation by saying:  "Unless there are very grave and unusual circuмstances, one should NEVER go to NO.  Let's see if your circuмstances warrant an exception."

    Is this not what happened with NFP?  Did not well meaning Catholics find themselves consistently living in the 2% world of grave and unusual circuмstances?  Publicly, when our priests and our pontiffs told us that we could NEVER use contraception, people didn't under pain of mortal sin.  BUT.....individually, couples often went to their priests privately to discuss their grave and unusual circuмstances and they were directed IN PRIVATE.  Why? Because any PUBLIC acknowledgement of practicing NFP on a regular or permanent basis would have caused great scandal.  And when it was finally written and said out loud by Pope Pius XII that couples COULD practice periodic abstinence under grave circuмstances, those grave circuмstances became more and more commonplace until in 50 years, Catholics began to consider NFP as "natural" birth control and perfectly acceptable, so much so that now it is taught in NO marriage preparations as a MORAL GOOD, i.e responsible parenthood!

    You could measure the 2% world against just about every thing in Catholic practice and see clearly how the 2% has become the 98%, how the exception has become the rule.  And it is dangerous to one's faith 100% of the time.

    Apply this situation to Baptism of Desire/Blood.
    Apply this situation to mixed marriages.
    Apply this situation to annulments.

    See what I mean?

    The Church has NEVER been intolerable because Our Lord was not cruel or unforgiving.

    I am not judging or condemning anyone here.  I am, however, questioning the good bishops prudence in this matter.



    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #23 on: July 21, 2015, 09:02:33 AM »
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  • Well, I'm going to withdraw for now. I need to meditate and pray on this for a while.
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    Offline JPaul

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #24 on: July 21, 2015, 09:32:32 AM »
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  • The Novus Ordo is not a Catholic rite of Mass. It is always illicit to attend a non-Catholic ritual.
    It is not a work of the Church and not of the Church. How then can such a thing help you to keep your Faith, the true Faith of the Catholic Church,  without which one cannot be saved?

    The answer is self evident. You cannot maintain a healthy body by stabbing yourself in the heart.

    The principle of the Church has always been that you are never allowed to attend a non-Catholic ritual. That is the principle around which priests and Bishops should be formed, and in doing so, they would forbid any such betrayal of the Faith and the Church.
    The truth of Christ's Holy Religion offends many, and hurts the feelings of countless more. and that is the nature of Truth. Neither of those are considerations when advising the Faithful as to the saving of their souls.
    It is the purest form of Holy Charity, in this world, is to tell the struggling soul the Truth, without equivocation, and in Fidelity to Our Lord, it is the solemn duty of His clerics.





    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #25 on: July 21, 2015, 09:35:59 AM »
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  • Quote
    Intrinsic evil refers to actions that are morally evil in such a way that is essentially opposed to the will of God or proper human fulfillment. The key consideration here is that intrinsically evil actions are judged to be so solely by their object, independently of the intention that inspires them or the circuмstances that surround them. “Intrinsic” has nothing to do with how heinous the act is (although all heinous acts are intrinsically evil), but rather that the act is wrong no matter what its circuмstances. A good example of an intrinsically evil act would be deliberately willed abortion.



    Morality 101 (CCC 1755-1761)

    The universal nature of morality

    One of the most important things about Catholic morality is that it is not just Catholic morality. Many non-Catholics – when presented with a Catholic moral teaching (for example, the Catholic teaching on contraception) – will say “Well, that’s all very well – but I am not Catholic so that doesn’t matter.”

    The apologist should point out that the reason Catholics follow certain moral teachings is not merely because this is what the Church says, but rather Catholics follow them and the Church teaches them because they are true. Morality is universal – what is good for one person to do is good for all people, and what is bad for one person to do is bad for all people. Abortion is always wrong, for example – it does not matter who the person is or what the situation is.

    The purpose of this article is to show the Catholic apologist what the moral principles are and assist him in explaining to and defending them from non-Catholics who have a differing opinion. With these moral principles the apologist will not only be able to explain what the Church teaches and why, but also how the Church arrives at this teaching.

    Definitions

    Good and evil are often mentioned in morality. Many people have a faulty and populist understanding of what good and evil are; they define “good” as “that which is pleasant” or “that which saves lives”. However, the correct definition of good is “acting in accord with the nature of a thing” or “that which perfects or completes a thing’s being”. For a human to be morally good is to act in accord with the nature of humanity; we are made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) and should therefore act as He would have us act. We are made to love and serve God, and to be morally good is to act in accordance with that.

    Evil is defined as the absence or lacking of a good – thus, a moral evil is to act against the wishes of God.

    The reason good is defined as acting in accord with the nature of oneself is that only this allows the creature (in our case a human) to be completed and perfected. The nature of a human is to be human – to act in a manner different to that is to deny it. Non-Christian moralists may disagree on the nature of what humans are, but the Bible (which is inspired by God) tells us that our nature is to be made in the image of God, and hence to act in accord with His will.

    This definition of good and evil immediately shows many forms of moral reasoning to be faulty, merely because they assume a different definition of good and evil. All other forms of good and evil are relative and not absolute. Without absolute definitions of good and evil no act can be called truly called good or evil, as from a different perspective what is good could be evil and vice versa.

    Intrinsic evil refers to actions that are morally evil in such a way that is essentially opposed to the will of God or proper human fulfillment. The key consideration here is that intrinsically evil actions are judged to be so solely by their object, independently of the intention that inspires them or the circuмstances that surround them. “Intrinsic” has nothing to do with how heinous the act is (although all heinous acts are intrinsically evil), but rather that the act is wrong no matter what its circuмstances. A good example of an intrinsically evil act would be deliberately willed abortion.

    Moral principles

    Moral principles are methods which allow us to analyze complex moral situations. Knowing what is good or evil is not enough in complex moral situations; situations (for example) where there is no choice which is purely good or which totally avoids evil are an example of this. The moral principles allow us to determine how we should act in a specific situation. The following moral principles are not an exhaustive list, but are some of the main and most significant ones.

    Principle of beneficence

    This is known as the “first principle” of morality – it means that one must do good and avoid evil. This is a very obvious moral principle – in order to act in a morally good manner one must do good actions! Although obvious, this principle is not always followed.

    Principle of nonmaleficence

    This is sometimes defined as “first, do no harm”. This principle means that we should avoid doing what is evil. Again, this is a very obvious moral principle – but one which is not always followed. This is a harder principle to follow absolutely because in the complex moral universe we inhabit most actions have at least some harmful effects. The principle of double-effect (described below) is essential in these situations. As it is often difficult to completely avoid harm, this principle is perhaps better defined as “do no evil first”, which connects it intimately with the principle of double effect.

    Principle of double effect

    The principle of double effect recognizes that – for many actions which are good in themselves – there are consequences which are both beneficial and harmful. The principle of double effect exists to determine the moral good or evil of an action, and to determine if the action should be undertaken; even if it will lead to a foreseen effect which is a moral evil.

    When there is a clash between the two universal norms of “do good” and “avoid evil”, the question arises as to whether the obligation to avoid evil requires one to abstain from a good action in order to prevent a foreseen but merely permitted concomitant evil effect. The answer is that one need not always abstain from a good action that has foreseen bad effects, depending on certain moral criteria identified in the principle of double effect. Though five are listed here, some authors emphasize only four basic moral criteria (the fifth listed here further specifies the third criterion):

    The object of the act must not be intrinsically contradictory to one's fundamental commitment to God and neighbor (including oneself), that is, it must be a good action judged by its moral object (in other words, the action must not be intrinsically evil);

    The direct intention of the agent must be to achieve the beneficial effects and to avoid the foreseen harmful effects as far as possible, that is, one must only indirectly intend the harm;

    The foreseen beneficial effects must not be achieved by the means of the foreseen harmful effects, and no other means of achieving those effects are available;

    The foreseen beneficial effects must be equal to or greater than the foreseen harmful effects (the proportionate judgment);

    The beneficial effects must follow from the action at least as immediately as do the harmful effects.

    A practical example of this would be the case of a pregnant woman who requires the removal of her womb or she will die. In this case the action of removing the womb for theraputic reasons is not intrinsically evil. The death of the child is an unintended consequence and would be avoided if at all possible. The woman's life is not saved by the death of the child – the woman's life is saved by the removal of her womb. In this case it would be permitted to remove the woman's womb, even though this will result in the death of the child.

    Principle of tolerance

    The principle of tolerance has very little to do with the commonly held view of the word. It refers to the tolerance of some moral evils by those elements of society who are responsible for the common good (in a democratic society, this can be argued to everyone) in certain circuмstances. Along with the principle of double effect this principle was developed as a set of moral criteria for discerning how to pursue good in a world in which evil is inevitable.

    According to this principle those who govern both society and the individual institutions that constitute important elements of the common good may at times tolerate the evil actions of others (including some intrinsic evils) provided two criteria are met. Firstly, a greater good or set of goods would be lost if the evil action were not tolerated or, secondly, if greater evils would occur were the original evil not tolerated.

    This principle should never be considered a “loop hole” to justify evil actions. In other words, this principle can never justify performing an intrinsically evil action, but only the toleration of others performing evil actions where the eradication of these evils is not practically or morally feasible.

    A good example of this would be politicians voting for a bill which bans late term abortions, but keeps early term abortions legal. The abortions are an intrinsic evil, but if this bill were not voted for then more abortions would occur – which would be a greater evil (that is not to say that late-term abortions are worse than early term abortions, but rather that more abortions are worse than fewer).

    Principles of cooperation

    The principles of double effect and tolerance show that it is impossible, under many circuмstances, for an individual to do good in the world without being involved to some extent in evil. The principles of cooperation were developed in the Catholic moral tradition as a way of helping individuals discern how to properly avoid, limit, or distance themselves from evil (especially intrinsic evil) in order to avoid a worse evil or to achieve an important good.

    Formal Cooperation. Formal cooperation occurs when a person freely participates in the action(s) of a principal agent, or shares in the agent’s intention, either for its own sake or as a means to some other goal. Implicit formal cooperation occurs when, even though the cooperator denies intending the object of the principal agent, the cooperating person or organization participates in the action directly and in such a way that the it could not be done without this participation. Formal cooperation in intrinsically evil actions, either explicitly or implicitly, is morally illicit.

    Immediate Material Cooperation. Immediate material cooperation occurs when the cooperator participates in circuмstances that are essential to the commission of an act, such that the act could not occur without this participation. Immediate material cooperation in intrinsically evil actions is morally illicit. There has been in the tradition a debate about the permissibility of immediate cooperation in immoral acts under "duress." When individuals are forced under duress (e.g. at gunpoint) to cooperate in the intrinsically evil action of another, they act with diminished freedom. Following Church teaching, the matter of their action remains objectively evil, but they do not intend this object with true freedom. In such cases, the matter remains objectively evil as such, but the subjective culpability of the cooperator is diminished.

    Mediate Material Cooperation. Mediate material cooperation occurs when the cooperator participates in circuмstances that are not essential to the commission of an action, such that the action could occur even without this cooperation. Mediate material cooperation in an immoral act might be justifiable under three basic conditions:

    If there is a proportionately serious reason for the cooperation (i.e.,for the sake of protecting an important good or for avoiding a worse harm); the graver the evil the more serious a reason required for the cooperation;

    The importance of the reason for cooperation must be proportionate to the causal proximity of the cooperator’s action to the action of the principal agent (the distinction between proximate and remote);

    The danger of scandal (i.e. leading others into doing evil, leading others into error, or spreading confusion) must be avoided.

    Faulty moral reasoning

    There are many examples of faulty moral reasoning. All of them are faulty because they fail to recognize one or more central moral truths.

    Relativism

    Relativism teaches that there are no moral absolutes, that there is no such thing as truly good or evil actions – actions have consequences which are pleasant or unpleasant for individuals, but there is no objective standard for what is good and bad. Relativism is a flawed notion because it denies that humanity has an essential nature. It also denies the existence of any absolute moral laws, which implies the denial of an absolute moral authority (God).

    Relativism is, in fact, a complete denial of morality. It denies the idea that there is any sort of morality that can be discussed or debated – all actions are simply personally judged to have a pleasant effect or unpleasant effect. Actions which result in pleasure are seen as being good, no matter how much pain they may cause others.

    A relativist can sometimes be convinced of the wrongness of his position by considering how he would feel if the positions were reversed for a specific event – relativists are fundamentally very selfish individuals, however, and are generally speaking inconsistent. Their actions are judged according to relative morality, but actions which harm them are considered to be evil. Pointing out this inconsistency can sometimes have a beneficial effect.

    It will sometimes be necessary to show that an absolute God exists in order to defeat relativism – for this apologetics towards atheists are advised.

    Consequentialism

    There are many different types of consequentialism (utilitarianism, situational ethics and others) but all of them can be summed up by the phrase “the end justifies the means”. This moral reasoning suggests that the only thing that truly matters is the end result, not the methods used to get there. As can be seen by the principles of double-effect and tolerance there are times where evil can be tolerated or permitted to happen in order to achieve a moral good. Consequentialism allows for the deliberate performing of intrinsically evil actions, however – something that the principle of double effect does not allow.

    Consequentialism is an incorrect moral theory because it allows and encourages humanity to perform actions which are contrary to its nature in order to achieve ends which are in accord with its nature. In essence, consequentialism causes harm in order to cause benefit; this is a violation of the principle of nonmaleficence.

    Consequentialism also often encourages the performance of evil acts in the hope that good actions will occur as a result. The evil is inevitable (because that is the direct consequence of the action) but the good is not always inevitable. This is morally unacceptable for obvious reasons.

    Additionally, many forms of consequentialism include a faulty understanding of what “good” is. Utilitarianism, for example, defines good according to “happiness” - something which is highly subjective and has absolutely nothing to do with genuine moral good. Many sins are pleasurable (this is why people commit them – human beings do not naturally do things which they do not enjoy unless there is some definite benefit for carrying the actions out) and so happiness cannot be considered to be a benchmark of moral goodness.

    “Fundamental Option” theory

    This is not so much an example of faulty moral reasoning, but rather a method by which faulty moral choices are excused as not being relevant. The view is that once we have established a relationship with God we cannot lose that relationship except by explicit repudiation of God; committing a sin which is against God's will is not considered to be an explicit repudiation of God. Under this moral reasoning actions can be evil, but this is not relevant to our moral state and does not change it.

    This is simply a form of eternal assurance (“once saved, always saved”) and should be dealt with using the apologetics provided against that heresy. Additionally, it is obvious that this moral reasoning never succeeds in even suggesting that evil is good; all it merely does is state that evil does not matter.

    Moral theory is an exceptionally complicated field of study, although the basics are relatively easy to understand. Apologist wishing to explore this fascinating subject in greater detail are directed at works such as Aquinas' Summa Theologica which contain excellent chapters on all aspects of morality.

    http://www.catholicbasictraining.com/apologetics/coursetexts/8a.htm
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #26 on: July 21, 2015, 09:39:31 AM »
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  • Intrinsically may be the wrong term / distinction here.

    Bishop Williamson appears to be saying that while, yes, the NO Mass is OBJECTIVELY harmful, it's not necessarily SUBJECTIVELY harmful ... depending on the dispositions of the subject.

    Bishop Williamson appears to be sliding into subjectivism.  He's crossed over into the perspective of considering the question from the standpoint of whether it would be subjectively HARMFUL rather than from considering whether it's objectively WRONG.

    We must consider the question not about whether it's harmful but about whether it's offensive to God.  If it's objectively offensive to God, and we have deemed it to be such, then we cannot attend it and it would be sinful for us to attend it, and His Excellency should never say that it might be OK to attend it.  Now, if other people judge that the Mass isn't objectively sinful, then it may not be personally sinful for them to attend it.  In that case, even if the Mass is objectively offensive to God, the person would not subjectively be guilty of sin for attending it and might PER ACCIDENS derive benefit and spiritual fruit from attending it ... despite the fact that attendance might be objectively sinful.

    So, for instance, if I consider X to be sinful, but another person does NOT consider X to be sinful, I would subjectively sin by doing X but the other person would NOT subjectively sin by doing X.  But it would be wrong for me to say that X is OK if I consider X to be sinful.

    Now, the only wiggle room here is if I'm not 100% SURE that X is sinful.  In the case of the NOM, we are determining that it's sinful or offensive to God based on our own private judgement or analysis, so there is in fact room for doubt and this can attenuate our opposition objectively to the practice.

    Let me make an analogy.  I am personally convinced that NFP is sinful and that Pius XII got it wrong.  But I also recognize that I am not the Church and that someone who might practice NFP based on Pius XII's "Allocution" may not subjectively be committing a sin.  And, given that I do not have the authority of the Church, I can't judge these people with absolute certainty.  If someone wants to take the word of Pius XII over my own, what can I say to that?  Yet I could NEVER EVER recommend the practice to anyone or tell them that I think it's OK or that it might be OK.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #27 on: July 21, 2015, 09:47:38 AM »
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  • So then, if Bishop Williamson considers the New Mass to be objectively offensive to God, he should never ever say that it might be objectively OK to attend it.  What he appears to be saying is that while the New Mass is objectively offensive to God, one might personally not subjectively commit a sin while attending it.  BUT that would only be true in the case of someone who doesn't think that it's objectively offensive to God.  So His Excellency really needs to clarify here.  He's blurred objective and subjective and has therefore caused serious confusion.

    And that's quite interesting because if there was one point that +Williamson has always (quite correctly) HAMMERED on is that all the V2 errors are rooted in SUBJECTIVISM.

    Even in his latest treatments of the SV debate, he continues to promote what has been called the "MENTEVACANTIST" defense of the V2 Popes ... which too is an inherently subjectivist perspective.

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #28 on: July 21, 2015, 09:51:10 AM »
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  • Quote
    Bishop Williamson appears to be saying that while, yes, the NO Mass is OBJECTIVELY harmful, it's not necessarily SUBJECTIVELY harmful ... depending on the dispositions of the subject.


    I deduce the same, mainly because I heard him reference something similar at his November 5th Mass/Conference.  He spoke briefly to the point that not all novus ordo Catholics are bad or going to hell, that many are struggling to lead holy lives.  It resonated with us since we come from novus ordo background and struggled mightily in that system, completely oblivious to  the existence of traditional masses for many years.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass
    « Reply #29 on: July 21, 2015, 09:52:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    So then, if Bishop Williamson considers the New Mass to be objectively offensive to God, he should never ever say that it might be objectively OK to attend it.  What he appears to be saying is that while the New Mass is objectively offensive to God, one might personally not subjectively commit a sin while attending it.  BUT that would only be true in the case of someone who doesn't think that it's objectively offensive to God.  So His Excellency really needs to clarify here.  He's blurred objective and subjective and has therefore caused serious confusion.

    And that's quite interesting because if there was one point that +Williamson has always (quite correctly) HAMMERED on is that all the V2 errors are rooted in SUBJECTIVISM.

    Even in his latest treatments of the SV debate, he continues to promote what has been called the "MENTEVACANTIST" defense of the V2 Popes ... which too is an inherently subjectivist perspective.



    I think that Ladislaus has hit the nail on the head here.  Bishop Williamson has always and continues to oppose the subjectivism of the Council and Modernism in general.  I hope that his next EC will deal with this issue regarding the bastard rite.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...