Author Topic: Bp. Williamson controversy about emotional woman and Novus Ordo Mass (Read 47596 times)

clare · « **Reply #105 on:** July 23, 2015, 04:07:26 PM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

Clare, you and I go back a few years. I was not one of your favorites; but then again, I'm not the favorite of most people on Cathinfo either. But do I misunderstand you? Are you asserting that IA broke up because of your unwillingness to ban people who insulted you?

Oh no, that's really not what I meant at all. On re-reading what I wrote, I can see I might have given that impression. I just meant it didn't save it. Anyway, enough about me and it!

AlanF · « **Reply #106 on:** July 23, 2015, 04:46:30 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

AlanF --

You will maintain a modicuм of respect for the moderator of the board. Feel free to discuss, disagree, argue, but I don't permit ad-hominems against my person. I will frankly admit I'm more strict about "lack of charity" towards myself than I am when it happens towards others. But that's just human nature. Consider it a small perk that comes after putting in thousands of hours to build up a forum over 9 years' time.

As I've said many times, just show me that I'm tyrannical in that regard, and I'll probably change. But so far, every forum I've ever been on will ban you if you insult the forum owner/moderator. I've had a standing "dare" for at least 7 years for anyone to show me a single exception to this, but no one has yet been able to prove me wrong about this.

Go call Tracy "a non-Catholic liberal" on Fisheaters. Go insult the mods of any Trad forum. Go call the moderators of Catholic Answers "non-Catholic". Go on any of the tiny Proboards-based Resistance forums and say that the Resistance is made up of devil worshipers. Call the moderator of "TractorForum.com" a neanderthal who doesn't know a tractor from an ice cream cone. Go on a Mac forum and say that Macintosh is for rich poseurs who don't know how to use a real computer, especially the owner of the forum. It doesn't matter what forum -- if you insult the owner/mods, you are banned.

Matthew, I did not intend to write with a lack of charity towards you or to use an ad hominem, nor do I believe I actually did so. I think it perfectly reasonable in a discussion to point out when someone's posts appear more emotional than reasoned and therefore that their remarks that "thinking hurts" applies to their own posts more than to mine, whether or not they're the owner of the forum.

Croix de Fer · « **Reply #107 on:** July 23, 2015, 07:06:12 PM »

Quote from: Todd K

I agree that if one means intrinsically evil in a Thomistic sense, one whould never call a valid Mass intrinsically evil. If it is a vaild Mass than it is the sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross and that can never be evil. Distinctions need to be made.

What is your definition of "valid Mass"? The Old Catholic church's Sacraments are valid, presuming the presence of the three essentials: proper form, matter & intention, and presuming these Sacraments are conferred by a valid cleric. However, the Old Catholic church is heretical, hence their "mass" (service) is not Catholic in the objective sense, notwithstanding the fact that their Sacrament of Communion is valid. The Novus Ordo sacrilege is a more severe case. The Sacrament is valid, but the mass is not Catholic. The valid Communion is enveloped in a thick haze of protty and humanist rituals, and irreverence, and a mockery that is unbeknownst to the nominal Catholic. The fact that the Sacrament is still valid makes the Novus Ordo more of a direct offense and sacrilege to Our Lord, because He is still present - Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity - in the Eucharist.

The Novus Ordo must be destroyed, and its smithereens sent back to the pits of hell from where it was concocted.

magdalena · « **Reply #108 on:** July 23, 2015, 08:04:37 PM »

Quote from: Domitilla

Clare, you had the respect of the vast majority of posters on the forum where you were a moderator. Would that that forum was still operating and you were still functioning as it's beloved lady mod -- you were (and are) a "class act", my friend ....

I agree 100%. We miss you and IA every day.

Matthew · « **Reply #109 on:** July 26, 2015, 09:44:56 AM »

Mark 12:13
And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and of the Herodians; that they should catch him in his words.

Luke 11:54
Lying in wait for him, and seeking to catch something from his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Matthew 22:15
Then the Pharisees going, consulted among themselves how to insnare him in his speech.

Luke 20:20
And being upon the watch, they sent spies, who should feign themselves just, that they might take hold of him in his words, that they might deliver him up to the authority and power of the governor.

The last one is particularly interesting, as there have been cases of people sneaking in -- literally as spies -- to record events with Bishop Williamson.

PapalSupremacy · « **Reply #110 on:** July 26, 2015, 07:30:20 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Mark 12:13
And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and of the Herodians; that they should catch him in his words.

Luke 11:54
Lying in wait for him, and seeking to catch something from his mouth, that they might accuse him.

Matthew 22:15
Then the Pharisees going, consulted among themselves how to insnare him in his speech.

Luke 20:20
And being upon the watch, they sent spies, who should feign themselves just, that they might take hold of him in his words, that they might deliver him up to the authority and power of the governor.

The last one is particularly interesting, as there have been cases of people sneaking in -- literally as spies -- to record events with Bishop Williamson.

While it was impossible to catch Our Lord in error, there is no such guarantee for Bp. Williamson. He was certainly mistaken in this case. If the question was indeed staged, maybe it was staged because they knew what he thought so they tried to make him incriminate himself. As you well know, this has happened at least once before, with serious consequences.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #111 on:** July 27, 2015, 10:07:53 AM »

Papalsup:

Quote

While it was impossible to catch Our Lord in error, there is no such guarantee for Bp. Williamson. He was certainly mistaken in this case.

Mistaken, you say? Could you possibly restate succinctly exactly what he was mistaken about? And could I ask you to reprint the specific comments he made which you thought to be mistaken? It must have something to do with H.E. not condemning and smashing to bits, to your satisfaction anyway, the legitimacy and/or validity of the NO Mass. I think a reiteration of what he was "certainly mistaken" about would be appropriate. :smile:

CathMomof7 · « **Reply #112 on:** July 27, 2015, 10:51:22 AM »

Quote from: Meg

I'm one of those who attends the NO (for two years now) and can still keep the Faith. Not everyone can do that, and maybe there are few who can do that, I don't really know. At least the Novus Ordo folks don't seem to think that they're better than everyone else like the FSSP Catholics do at the local FSSP parish that I attended and still on occasion attend.

God bless Bishop Williamson for his charity toward those Catholics who feel that we don't have a choice but to attend the NO.

Well congratulations! How proud you must be to have a faith stronger than 98% of NO Catholics!

Isn't it wonderful to belong to a group of people so humble and non-judgmental? Who would want to be involved with those snotty, snobby Latin Mass goers with their "holier-than-thou" attitude?

What a dangerous place to be in: thinking that something so bad for most people couldn't possibly effect you. What about those people who aren't as fortunate as you to have such a strong faith? Do you give 2 cents about them?

:confused1:

Meg · « **Reply #113 on:** July 27, 2015, 11:48:25 AM »

Quote from: CathMomof7

Quote from: Meg

I'm one of those who attends the NO (for two years now) and can still keep the Faith. Not everyone can do that, and maybe there are few who can do that, I don't really know. At least the Novus Ordo folks don't seem to think that they're better than everyone else like the FSSP Catholics do at the local FSSP parish that I attended and still on occasion attend.

God bless Bishop Williamson for his charity toward those Catholics who feel that we don't have a choice but to attend the NO.

Well congratulations! How proud you must be to have a faith stronger than 98% of NO Catholics!

Isn't it wonderful to belong to a group of people so humble and non-judgmental? Who would want to be involved with those snotty, snobby Latin Mass goers with their "holier-than-thou" attitude?

What a dangerous place to be in: thinking that something so bad for most people couldn't possibly effect you. What about those people who aren't as fortunate as you to have such a strong faith? Do you give 2 cents about them?

:confused1:

You're right. It was arrogant for me to say such a thing.

JPaul · « **Reply #114 on:** July 27, 2015, 07:54:14 PM »

One does not always lose their Faith by attending the New ritual, but why go to it?

It isn't Catholic, and imagining that it is, can do nothing to make it so.
There is doubt about the sacrament, making it a sin against the will of the church to attend it.
It is always a sacrilege, and one which folks participate in whenever they go to it.

If you confess to this, you will not be absolved if you continue to attend it.

It seems that after fifty plus years, people are still just as confused and misled as they were one year after its illicit imposition.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #115 on:** July 28, 2015, 10:36:41 AM »

J Paul:

Quote

It seems that after fifty plus years, people are still just as confused and misled as they were one year after its illicit imposition.

And isn't that exactly what the Church's enemies intended it to be?

AlanF · « **Reply #116 on:** July 29, 2015, 07:53:20 AM »

It's quite incredible how many people are changing their opinions on the Novus Ordo just because Bp Williamson says something different. Many people seem to find it impossible to believe that he could ever say something wrong.

JPaul · « **Reply #117 on:** July 29, 2015, 08:37:44 AM »

Quote from: hollingsworth

J Paul:
Quote
It seems that after fifty plus years, people are still just as confused and misled as they were one year after its illicit imposition.

And isn't that exactly what the Church's enemies intended it to be?

Yes, But that begs the question as to why our clerics have not yet formulated a clear concise and consistent answer, when such questions arise from the laity , an answer which leaves no doubt and no room for misinterpretation ?

No matter what the context of the personal situation of the inquirer is , the answer should always be the same because, the principal and the truth of the matter never change .

Meg · « **Reply #118 on:** July 29, 2015, 10:01:20 AM »

Quote from: J.Paul

Yes, But that begs the question as to why our clerics have not yet formulated a clear concise and consistent answer, when such questions arise from the laity , an answer which leaves no doubt and no room for misinterpretation ?

I would think that the reason is that, according to Bp. Williamson, the New Mass is one of those "gray areas." Can't there be gray areas during a serious cirisis, such as the Church is going through now?

I noticed that the Dominicans of Avrille (whom I admire greatly) posted a new article on their webiste in English about how it's wrong to attend the New Mass. Evidently, they don't agree with Bp. Williamson. That's alright. They have to take a stand that they believe is right. I'll go with Bp. Williamson's view for now, even though it seems to go against tradition for most folks here, I know.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #119 on:** July 29, 2015, 10:33:38 AM »

Meg:

Quote

I would think that the reason is that, according to Bp. Williamson, the New Mass is one of those "gray areas." Can't there be gray areas during a serious cirisis, such as the Church is going through now?

Apparently not, Meg. "(G)ray areas" are off limits to serious discussion. It is black and white, or else, by golly! I think, perhaps, that if some of the denizens of this forum were facing brutal persecution of Christians from Muslims, jews and others in various parts of the world, where martyrs' blood flows freely today, they would pay less attention to the relative legitimacy of the New Mass. Their minds would be on other things.