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Author Topic: Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out  (Read 11998 times)

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Offline Jitpring

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Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
« on: May 15, 2012, 12:17:15 AM »
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  • The rash judgment currently being vented in numerous threads here about Bp. Fellay and the SSPX situation is appalling. Nauseating, really. I for one am waiting to see what actually happens instead of becoming hysterical about what may or may not happen. If Bp. Fellay sells out, I'm gone. But I'm waiting to see what actually happens.

    Who's with me? I know some of you are out there. I also know that the screaming mob here has probably intimidated some into silence. Therefore, instead of speaking out here in support of Bp. Fellay, feel free to just give this post a thumbs up if you agree with me.

    To those of you full of bitter zeal and anxiety, know this: the devil has you right where he wants you.

    "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

    -Mt. 12:37-38

    "And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

    -James 1:26

    "But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts; glory not, and be not liars against the truth."

    -James 3:14
    Age, thou art shamed.*
    O shame, where is thy blush?**

    -Shakespeare, Julius Caesar,* Hamlet**


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 12:41:18 AM »
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  • If a deal doesn't happen, you don't think it would be at least in part due to the numerous voices speaking against it?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline MaterDominici

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 12:46:22 AM »
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  • The problem of fundamental disagreements within the SSPX will continue to exist whether or not a deal with Rome is made. If the deal does not go through, it would still be foolish to continue onward as if this discord did not exist.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Jitpring

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 01:04:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    If a deal doesn't happen, you don't think it would be at least in part due to the numerous voices speaking against it?


    The clamor of the mob for or against it should have absolutely no bearing on the decision. Bp. Fellay's task is to make the right decision, whether or not the mob supports it. I for one am not a democrat. I also reject collegiality, of course.

    But now instead of getting completely sucked into an argument here, I'm going to step aside and see if anyone agrees with me.
    Age, thou art shamed.*
    O shame, where is thy blush?**

    -Shakespeare, Julius Caesar,* Hamlet**

    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 01:05:55 AM »
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  • I think we're beyond speculation and "rash judgment" here, Jitpring.

    We're talking about taking a man's words at face value. What's wrong with that?

    By reading his own words, it is apparent to anyone with normal reading comprehension that Bishop Fellay has changed his stance on Vatican II, the general nature of the Crisis in the Church and how to deal with it, and his beliefs about obedience, in particular obedience as regards the Pope.

    What are we supposed to do when we read/learn this? Stop up our ears with our hands and sing "lalalalala"?

    All most of us are discussing is "what might happen" which is very useful and productive, at the very least on a psychological level.

    I realize this is very hard on a great many of us, but it "is what it is".

    Think of it like a divorce. Our two parents have had a series of major, non-private fights, and have both given up on the marriage. Each parent has stated on several occasions "I don't love you anymore" to the other, even when not angry, and both mean it. They are worlds away from each other, even though they still live under the same roof.

    Should they get a divorce? Should they stay together?

    Does it even matter in this case? Either way, the children will be scarred for life. After all, a child doesn't just need a mature male and a mature female in the house with them, but a MOM and a DAD that love each other as well as themselves. If mom and dad don't love each other, what does it matter if they live together or not? The family will not function as it should. It will be dysfunctional at best.

    We're at that stage right now in the SSPX. The Bishops have publicly let out that they're not united. Bishop Fellay has basically said how he feels alone, and that he can't discuss important matters with the other 3 bishops, basically because he knows they're not on his side -- or he can't trust them -- or both.

    Say Rome decides against a deal with the SSPX. Now what? Do we all go back to the way things were, forgetting all the Bishop Rifan-esque docuмents recently penned by Bishop Fellay? How could we? We'd have to completely have our heads in the sand.

    Priests and laity are as we speak scrambling to figure out what they will do. They are all seeking out allies, support, etc. and making contingency plans. There is already a split in the SSPX; it just hasn't reached the surface yet.

    We're talking about a split that is already there. People are posting sermons, articles, letters from priests/bishops directly involved.
    How is that speculation, much less rash judgment?
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    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 01:10:37 AM »
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  • Did you see the post by LordPhan reporting what the Canadian District Superior preached recently?
    http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Latest-discord-from-SSPX-priests-outrageous-statements-etc

    He called Bishop Williamson a h0Ɩ0cαųst denier, among other outrageous statements.

    I would have gotten up and walked out at that point.

    And there are certainly many priests and laymen who share my "opinions" on Bishop Williamson.

    See?  A split.
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    Offline Jitpring

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 01:16:24 AM »
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  • Because no deal has been officially decided and announced. There's only been rumor, innuendo, and leaks. Hardly anyone here is giving Bp. Fellay the slightest benefit of the doubt, even though he's done such great work. Such incredible ingratitude.

    I'm saying: Let's wait and see what actually happens instead of becoming hysterical about what might happen. But of course it's too late for this. The floodgates have opened and many are frenetically hurling into the abyss. Yet nothing has been finalized! Rash? You bet.
    Age, thou art shamed.*
    O shame, where is thy blush?**

    -Shakespeare, Julius Caesar,* Hamlet**

    Offline MaterDominici

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 01:18:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jitpring
    If Bp. Fellay sells out, I'm gone.


    So, you only support +Fellay if he does a 180 from where he's at right now.

    If that's all it takes to be a "Bishop Fellay supporter", I guess you can count me in. My trust in him will have dropped significantly, but if he has a change of heart and retracts his recent statements, I'm sure many of us would support him once again.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson


    Offline Matthew

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 01:21:52 AM »
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  • Jitpring, apparently you haven't read many of the SG's recent words. He is completely set on an agreement. The only way an agreement won't happen is if Rome changes their mind.

    And the fact that the letters were "leaked" doesn't somehow lessen their veracity or status. You act like a leaked letter is like a whisper in a dark alley. They were leaked, yes. But they are 100% authentic letters from +F and the other Bishops, and those letters were followed up with 100% authentic press releases from Menzingen.

    The only ones who can't see the current reality are those who are willfully blind. Perhaps it's a psychological comfort device, so maybe I should leave you alone.

    Enjoy your blankie.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 01:26:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Catholic News Service
    “I would hope so,” (+Fellay) said, when asked if Vatican II itself belongs to Catholic tradition.


    Do you agree with him? Does this sound like the official position of the SSPX? Or is this merely rumor?
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 06:48:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jitpring
    The rash judgment currently being vented in numerous threads here about Bp. Fellay and the SSPX situation is appalling. Nauseating, really. I for one am waiting to see what actually happens instead of becoming hysterical about what may or may not happen. If Bp. Fellay sells out, I'm gone. But I'm waiting to see what actually happens.

    Who's with me? I know some of you are out there. I also know that the screaming mob here has probably intimidated some into silence. Therefore, instead of speaking out here in support of Bp. Fellay, feel free to just give this post a thumbs up if you agree with me.

    To those of you full of bitter zeal and anxiety, know this: the devil has you right where he wants you.

    "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

    -Mt. 12:37-38

    "And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

    -James 1:26

    "But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts; glory not, and be not liars against the truth."

    -James 3:14


    Rash judgment?

    We have the letters!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline TKGS

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 06:52:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Matthew
    Think of it like a divorce. Our two parents have had a series of major, non-private fights, and have both given up on the marriage. Each parent has stated on several occasions "I don't love you anymore" to the other, even when not angry, and both mean it. They are worlds away from each other, even though they still live under the same roof.

    Should they get a divorce? Should they stay together?

    Does it even matter in this case? Either way, the children will be scarred for life. After all, a child doesn't just need a mature male and a mature female in the house with them, but a MOM and a DAD that love each other as well as themselves. If mom and dad don't love each other, what does it matter if they live together or not? The family will not function as it should. It will be dysfunctional at best.

    We're at that stage right now in the SSPX.


    Having no personal experience with divorce in my family, I can only speculate, but it would seem that this particular split is even worse for it does not really seem that either party is fighting FOR the children but are focused completely upon their own thoughts, desires, and disagreements.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 06:54:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    Quote from: Catholic News Service
    “I would hope so,” (+Fellay) said, when asked if Vatican II itself belongs to Catholic tradition.


    Do you agree with him? Does this sound like the official position of the SSPX? Or is this merely rumor?


    What?!

    Did he really say that?

    Sounds like some very careful wording by Bishop Fellay (neither a denial nor an approval).

    But notice it is not a forthright rejection, as we would have seen from him in yesteryear.

    Just another change in preparation for a deal.

    "Let your yes be yes, and your no, no."

    We now have SSPX leadership speaking ambiguously on matters directly impacting their "raison d'etre:" Resisting the revolution in the Church.

    Now resistence is turned to co-existence!
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline CathMomof7

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 08:30:53 AM »
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  • Quote
    Quote from: Jitpring
    The rash judgment currently being vented in numerous threads here about Bp. Fellay and the SSPX situation is appalling. Nauseating, really. I for one am waiting to see what actually happens instead of becoming hysterical about what may or may not happen. If Bp. Fellay sells out, I'm gone. But I'm waiting to see what actually happens.

    Who's with me? I know some of you are out there. I also know that the screaming mob here has probably intimidated some into silence. Therefore, instead of speaking out here in support of Bp. Fellay, feel free to just give this post a thumbs up if you agree with me.

    To those of you full of bitter zeal and anxiety, know this: the devil has you right where he wants you.

    "But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

    -Mt. 12:37-38

    "And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

    -James 1:26

    "But if you have bitter zeal, and there be contentions in your hearts; glory not, and be not liars against the truth."

    -James 3:14


    I understand what you are saying---wait and see before making all these judgments.

    But I happen to believe, based on reading what Bishop Fellay has publicly said and what has been said by the priests at my chapel, that a deal is expected.

    As such, I am attempting to prepare myself for that.  What is wrong with preparation?  

    I am not judging Bishop Fellay---only he knows his motives.  But it does appear from what little I know about him and the Society, that he has indeed reversed his position on many things, but most specifically in regards to Vatican II.  

    Because I am not nearly as intelligent as many people here, I could only recognize, when I was in NO, that most of the problems facing the Church were directly related to Vatican II.

    To have Bishop Fellay accept Vatican II in any capacity other than it did happen and it has lead to utter destruction both within the Church and within the lives of Catholics is very disconcerting.  This is EXACTLY what the FSSP does.  

    It would render us traditional Catholics sentimentalists---Catholics who are stuck in some place in time, who merely have a "fondness" for the Mass of their childhood.  

    B16 has already explained his opinion on the matter, but let me point it out to you in case you missed this 5 years ago.  Please pay close attention to B16 word's.  His thoughts regarding the Tridentine Mass are clear and his motives for reconciliation with the Society are like crystal.

    Quote
    it soon became apparent that a good number of people remained strongly attached to this usage of the Roman Rite, which had been familiar to them from childhood.
     This statement clearly suggests that people love the Tridentine Mass out of emotion and nostalgia.  

    Quote
    in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity;
     

    Quote
    Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them.
     Here, again, is the sentimentality idea.  His thoughts are that people accept Vatican II but they just can't let go of the Mass of their childhood.

    Quote
    This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear.
     If only priests would have done things properly, according to the New Missal, then we wouldn't be in this mess, he believes.  The abuses are there, yes, but only because priests interpreted it wrong.  

     
    Quote
    ]Immediately after the Second Vatican Council it was presumed that requests for the use of the 1962 Missal would be limited to the older generation which had grown up with it, but in the meantime it has clearly been demonstrated that young persons too have discovered this liturgical form, felt its attraction and found in it a form of encounter with the Mystery of the Most Holy Eucharist, particularly suited to them.
     Sentiment again.

     
    Quote
    it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite,not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful.


    Quote
    It is true that there have been exaggerations and at times social aspects unduly linked to the attitude of the faithful attached to the ancient Latin liturgical tradition.
     Yes, those people are still  old fashioned and refuse to adapt to the modern world.  You know, the women still wear dresses and have lots of children.  Oh and they still believe that all people must be Catholics.

    Quote
    The most sure guarantee that the Missal of Paul VI can unite parish communities and be loved by them consists in its being celebrated with great reverence in harmony with the liturgical directives.
     Here it is again.  Celebrate the New Mass with reverence and no one will question it.  In fact, everyone will love it.

    Quote
    There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal.
    And since there is no contradiction between the two, why not just say the New Mass?  Once people's sentiment is displaced, they will love it as much as the Old!

    Quote
    It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.


    Quote
    ]Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books.  The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.
     So be prepared to say the New Mass if you want to be recognized.

    If it is clear to me, a simpleton, why is it not clear to anyone else?  

    Bishop Fellay, by his words, seems to desire reconciliation.  But B16 desires assimilation.  

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Bp. Fellay supporters, speak out
    « Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 09:01:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: CathMomof7
    For some reason, my formatting is not working properly.  I apologize for the confusion of the above post.


    You have to click "Preview" first, and check how your post will appear, before you click on "Reply" or else, once you click Reply, you might not have enough time to edit the  post before "the ink dries." You could delete the whole thing before time runs out, though.

    But when you Preview your post, you can scroll down to the input window (to the right of the smilies) and make any changes you need to make and then click Preview again to see how your adjustments will affect the appearance of your post. You can repeat this process as often as you like before committing to a Reply. In the worst case, if your kids need something immediately and you're afraid of losing a long post because the computer might cycle or a power failure or whatever, you can open a NOTEPAD program (low RAM composition program) and paste your text there and save it for later, when you have time to finish it.

    If you often find yourself rushed and can't wait for a NOTEPAD program to start, then you ought to think ahead and start a notepad program immediately when you first turn on the computer, so it will be at the ready the instant you need it later.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.