Author Topic: Bp Fellay interprets Abp Lefebvre in light of Historical Context?  (Read 1425 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Two points to consider:

1. How do card-carrying Modernists explain away the condemnations of past Popes, Councils (etc) of their own current views/beliefs/agenda/actions?

"Such documents must be interpreted historically, taking the historical context (situation at the time) into account...they don't apply to today..."

Something along those lines, right?

2. Certain Superior Generals have been saying Archbishop Lefebvre would accept the deal offered to the SSPX. But the Archbishop's words were quite clear on this matter -- that a practical agreement was impossible, etc. So what would the pro-accord leader(s) suggest? That +Lefebvre's rhetoric has no application to 2012, because "times have changed" and we're in a different historical context?

In other words, even though Abp. Lefebvre's words (speaking against a practical agreement) and Bp. Fellay's own words from 2003 (Letter number 63) are pretty straightforward -- they speak against a practical agreement, the SSPX leadership claims they have no application to 2012. How can that be? Is it because we're in a different historical context?

Scary, isn't it?
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Offline Matthew

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Bp Fellay interprets Abp Lefebvre in light of Historical Context?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 12:18:46 PM »
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  • I will just say this:

    Much greater and smarter men than he were taken by Modernism and Subjectivist philosophy in the past. Leaders should be very careful when looking at the Modernists from anything other than a safe distance -- from behind the walls of a nice fortress, for example.

    Modernism is diabolically crafted. Like talking with the devil, talking with Modernists is dangerous. There has never been a heresy like Modernism. It's the devil's masterpiece.

    Subjectivism befuddles the mind, allowing it to believe 2 contradictory propositions simultaneously. Modernism, meanwhile, destroys the True Faith.

    Remember -- countless intelligent men (even "intellectuals") fell for subjectivist philosophies, and Modernism, because they wanted so badly to be accepted by the World 50 years ago.

    Answer me -- is acceptance by the world no longer attractive today? Are laymen, clerics, bishops today any different than the laymen, clerics, and bishops of 1960?


    As I said, Church leaders should be very, very careful when dealing with these Modernists.

    Unfortunately, recent words (reported by reputable news agencies) show that certain leaders are no longer afraid of being contaminated by the Modernist contagion. That is what worries me the most.

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    Offline Ethelred

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    Bp Fellay interprets Abp Lefebvre in light of Historical Context?
    « Reply #2 on: May 23, 2012, 01:34:00 PM »
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  • Well, the bishop clearly is a modern man who today embraces the liberal masterpiece named Vaticanum II, which yesterday he still called a poisoned soup.

    Bishop Fellay destroys the SSPX, by acting on a principle contrary to the principle on which it was founded by Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Offline roman

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    Bp Fellay interprets Abp Lefebvre in light of Historical Context?
    « Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 08:53:26 PM »
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  • I think we have to wait and see with all these happenings. I know that there a people on both sides of the issue on this forum and I can respect that.

    Rorate Caeli posted an interesting article worthy of note on situation we find ourselves in; for what it is worth:



    Humble souls in unity with the Roman communion

     

        The first [favor I ask of God] is that you may receive the grace of rendering to the true Church that which she is owed. ... The spirit of the Savior is a spirit of peace, of love and of union; he wished that those who were his own would be completely involved by unity: he did not satisfy himself with an interior and invisible unity, he wished to establish a complete interior and exterior unity, in a way that it would be due to this visible and remarkable sign that we would recognize his true disciples. Therefore, woe to those who separate themselves or who remain separated from the rod that takes the sap to all branches! Woe to those who divide in two, or who leave divided that which Jesus Christ wished to make one.


        Notice, please, that the greatest saints, and the writers of interior life, who possessed the most touching marks of the spirit of grace, were, as Saint Francis de Sales, in the Roman communion, and more prepared to die than to leave it.


        The humble and peaceful souls, who live only by virtue of meditation and love, are always small before their own eyes, and enemies of contradiction; they are very far from rising up against the body of the pastors, of judging, of condemning, of insulting, as Luther and Calvin did countless times. Their style has nothing that is bitter, prickly, or scornful. They do not work for a reform that is dry, judgmental, or haughty, that aims to sever unity and to defend that the husband has abandoned the wife. If they witness abuse or superstition, they mourn sweetly: and the mourning of the dove is always discreet and modest; it mourns only for a tender and calm love. They never raise their voice in presumptuous arguments ... their voice is but love and obedience. Their interior gifts, far from inspiring in them a proud elevation and a sentiment of independence, are used only to humiliate their own selves, to make them more pliant and less sure of themselves ...  .


        Oh, how much they are horrified by bitter zeal and all battles of words! Instead of argument, they make use of guidance, patience, and edification; instead of speaking of God to men, they speak of men to God, so that he may touch, persuade, transform them in a way that none other can do. Prayer vanquishes all arguments. In true prayer, no one is overwhelmed by his own sentiment, each one silences his own mind. ...


        Search as much as you want outside this holy unity, and you will find only haughty, contentious, and dry hearts; you will find doctors who are dried up and blinded by their own knowledge, who languish in endless disputes, who vaporize in their own reasoning ... . It is necessary to let the chaff and the wheat grow until the harvest, so that a reckless reformation will not carry away the wheat along with the chaff, so that it will not devastate instead of reform. The true Church is the one that nourishes the pure wheat along with the chaff, and that tolerates the chaff with the hope that the Lord will one day separate the pure wheat himself.


        Once again, sir, it is only in the Catholic Church that you will find this prayer that you love so, and that gives you such an attraction for God. Elsewhere, there is talk, and singing; God is praised, there is reasoning, argument, exhortation, rules; in the ancient Church, we calm down, we make ourselves small, we rejoin childhood by way of simplicity, we do not count for anything, we annihilate ourselves, we are the sacrifice of love. ... Only unity leads to such fruits.



    Abp. F. Fénelon
    Lettres sur l'autorité de l'Église (Letters on the authority of the Church)
    1719 (posthumous - written between 1700 and 1711)

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Bp Fellay interprets Abp Lefebvre in light of Historical Context?
    « Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 09:01:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: roman
    I think we have to wait and see with all these happenings. I know that there a people on both sides of the issue on this forum and I can respect that.

    Rorate Caeli posted an interesting article worthy of note on situation we find ourselves in; for what it is worth:



    Humble souls in unity with the Roman communion

     

        The first [favor I ask of God] is that you may receive the grace of rendering to the true Church that which she is owed. ... The spirit of the Savior is a spirit of peace, of love and of union; he wished that those who were his own would be completely involved by unity: he did not satisfy himself with an interior and invisible unity, he wished to establish a complete interior and exterior unity, in a way that it would be due to this visible and remarkable sign that we would recognize his true disciples. Therefore, woe to those who separate themselves or who remain separated from the rod that takes the sap to all branches! Woe to those who divide in two, or who leave divided that which Jesus Christ wished to make one.


        Notice, please, that the greatest saints, and the writers of interior life, who possessed the most touching marks of the spirit of grace, were, as Saint Francis de Sales, in the Roman communion, and more prepared to die than to leave it.


        The humble and peaceful souls, who live only by virtue of meditation and love, are always small before their own eyes, and enemies of contradiction; they are very far from rising up against the body of the pastors, of judging, of condemning, of insulting, as Luther and Calvin did countless times. Their style has nothing that is bitter, prickly, or scornful. They do not work for a reform that is dry, judgmental, or haughty, that aims to sever unity and to defend that the husband has abandoned the wife. If they witness abuse or superstition, they mourn sweetly: and the mourning of the dove is always discreet and modest; it mourns only for a tender and calm love. They never raise their voice in presumptuous arguments ... their voice is but love and obedience. Their interior gifts, far from inspiring in them a proud elevation and a sentiment of independence, are used only to humiliate their own selves, to make them more pliant and less sure of themselves ...  .


        Oh, how much they are horrified by bitter zeal and all battles of words! Instead of argument, they make use of guidance, patience, and edification; instead of speaking of God to men, they speak of men to God, so that he may touch, persuade, transform them in a way that none other can do. Prayer vanquishes all arguments. In true prayer, no one is overwhelmed by his own sentiment, each one silences his own mind. ...


        Search as much as you want outside this holy unity, and you will find only haughty, contentious, and dry hearts; you will find doctors who are dried up and blinded by their own knowledge, who languish in endless disputes, who vaporize in their own reasoning ... . It is necessary to let the chaff and the wheat grow until the harvest, so that a reckless reformation will not carry away the wheat along with the chaff, so that it will not devastate instead of reform. The true Church is the one that nourishes the pure wheat along with the chaff, and that tolerates the chaff with the hope that the Lord will one day separate the pure wheat himself.


        Once again, sir, it is only in the Catholic Church that you will find this prayer that you love so, and that gives you such an attraction for God. Elsewhere, there is talk, and singing; God is praised, there is reasoning, argument, exhortation, rules; in the ancient Church, we calm down, we make ourselves small, we rejoin childhood by way of simplicity, we do not count for anything, we annihilate ourselves, we are the sacrifice of love. ... Only unity leads to such fruits.



    Abp. F. Fénelon
    Lettres sur l'autorité de l'Église (Letters on the authority of the Church)
    1719 (posthumous - written between 1700 and 1711)


       I might be wrong, but wasn't Fenelon a heretic???
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Caraffa

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    Bp Fellay interprets Abp Lefebvre in light of Historical Context?
    « Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 09:09:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Seraphim
    Quote from: roman
    I think we have to wait and see with all these happenings. I know that there a people on both sides of the issue on this forum and I can respect that.

    Rorate Caeli posted an interesting article worthy of note on situation we find ourselves in; for what it is worth:



    Humble souls in unity with the Roman communion

     

        The first [favor I ask of God] is that you may receive the grace of rendering to the true Church that which she is owed. ... The spirit of the Savior is a spirit of peace, of love and of union; he wished that those who were his own would be completely involved by unity: he did not satisfy himself with an interior and invisible unity, he wished to establish a complete interior and exterior unity, in a way that it would be due to this visible and remarkable sign that we would recognize his true disciples. Therefore, woe to those who separate themselves or who remain separated from the rod that takes the sap to all branches! Woe to those who divide in two, or who leave divided that which Jesus Christ wished to make one.


        Notice, please, that the greatest saints, and the writers of interior life, who possessed the most touching marks of the spirit of grace, were, as Saint Francis de Sales, in the Roman communion, and more prepared to die than to leave it.


        The humble and peaceful souls, who live only by virtue of meditation and love, are always small before their own eyes, and enemies of contradiction; they are very far from rising up against the body of the pastors, of judging, of condemning, of insulting, as Luther and Calvin did countless times. Their style has nothing that is bitter, prickly, or scornful. They do not work for a reform that is dry, judgmental, or haughty, that aims to sever unity and to defend that the husband has abandoned the wife. If they witness abuse or superstition, they mourn sweetly: and the mourning of the dove is always discreet and modest; it mourns only for a tender and calm love. They never raise their voice in presumptuous arguments ... their voice is but love and obedience. Their interior gifts, far from inspiring in them a proud elevation and a sentiment of independence, are used only to humiliate their own selves, to make them more pliant and less sure of themselves ...  .


        Oh, how much they are horrified by bitter zeal and all battles of words! Instead of argument, they make use of guidance, patience, and edification; instead of speaking of God to men, they speak of men to God, so that he may touch, persuade, transform them in a way that none other can do. Prayer vanquishes all arguments. In true prayer, no one is overwhelmed by his own sentiment, each one silences his own mind. ...


        Search as much as you want outside this holy unity, and you will find only haughty, contentious, and dry hearts; you will find doctors who are dried up and blinded by their own knowledge, who languish in endless disputes, who vaporize in their own reasoning ... . It is necessary to let the chaff and the wheat grow until the harvest, so that a reckless reformation will not carry away the wheat along with the chaff, so that it will not devastate instead of reform. The true Church is the one that nourishes the pure wheat along with the chaff, and that tolerates the chaff with the hope that the Lord will one day separate the pure wheat himself.


        Once again, sir, it is only in the Catholic Church that you will find this prayer that you love so, and that gives you such an attraction for God. Elsewhere, there is talk, and singing; God is praised, there is reasoning, argument, exhortation, rules; in the ancient Church, we calm down, we make ourselves small, we rejoin childhood by way of simplicity, we do not count for anything, we annihilate ourselves, we are the sacrifice of love. ... Only unity leads to such fruits.



    Abp. F. Fénelon
    Lettres sur l'autorité de l'Église (Letters on the authority of the Church)
    1719 (posthumous - written between 1700 and 1711)


       I might be wrong, but wasn't Fenelon a heretic???


    This article does seem to be tainted with Quietism, i.e sayings like "annihilate ourselves" need further explanation. Bishop Fenelon was influenced by Quietism and Bishop Bossuet opposed him for it. He had propositions nd sayings condemned by the Church in 1699 for Semi-Quietism, but did submit to the Church in the censuring of some of his views.
    Pray for me, always.

     

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