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Author Topic: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"  (Read 2366 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 10:46:58 AM »
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  • There are many well-meaning but ignorant Catholics attending the NO who would benefit from Bishop Fellay's message.  Their scruples might be resolved by appealing to "Modernist Rome" because they recognize its authority.  It could help these people to start attending the Tridentine Mass and give them an opportunity to hear orthodox doctrine.

    I saw this sort of person as the ultimate target audience of Bishop Fellay's remarks.

    I understand what he's TRYing to do.  He has to find a better way to say it.  As I said, the way he put it, he's REINFORCING the misconception that many of these "well-meaning but ignorant Catholics" have that the SSPX has been in schism because Rome did not grant this approval.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #16 on: September 21, 2018, 10:51:49 AM »
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  • I understand what he's TRYing to do.  He has to find a better way to say it.  As I said, the way he put it, he's REINFORCING the misconception that many of these "well-meaning but ignorant Catholics" have that the SSPX has been in schism because Rome did not grant this approval.
    There very well may be problematic implications due to the way it was phrased.  I didn't even notice because I was so pleased to be handed "ammunition" for using with people I know with scruples about attending the SSPX.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 11:02:30 AM »
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  • No, in fact, he's reinforcing the misconception by implying that they are Catholic because Modernist Rome says they are, that they have the power to hear Confessions because Rome gave it to them.  This is implicily reinforcing the misconception that the SSPX are schismatic and certain of their Sacraments invalid because they lacked recognition from Rome.  So what happens when these approvals are lifted?  This is just his usual political nonsense and double-talk, and it does more harm than good.

    He could have said, "See, EVEN Rome says we're Catholic."
     
    Ridiculous.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #18 on: September 21, 2018, 11:09:34 AM »
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  • I understand what he's TRYing to do.  He has to find a better way to say it.  As I said, the way he put it, he's REINFORCING the misconception that many of these "well-meaning but ignorant Catholics" have that the SSPX has been in schism because Rome did not grant this approval.
    I agree he should have put it better, much, much better, but the ignorant Catholics will remain ignorant regardless. All the ignorant Catholics have to do is look into the matter - it's the same thing they've ALWAYS had to do if they *really* cared, but they don't - that's why they're ignorant. When it comes to this matter, they seem to drink misconceptions as if it's a fountain of youth.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 11:32:25 AM »
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  • There very well may be problematic implications due to the way it was phrased.  I didn't even notice because I was so pleased to be handed "ammunition" for using with people I know with scruples about attending the SSPX.

    He didn't "hand" you anything.  You could use the information of Rome's approval tactically with people on the fence.  In fact, there's pre-existing (new) Canon Law out there which says that people can validly confess to even priests lacking faculties if there's a "genuine spiritual good" that comes of it.  He needed to be much more precise and much more careful about how he said these things.

    Compare that to +Lefebvre, who asked rhetorically "excommunicated by whom?" in response to the episcopal consecration issue.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #20 on: September 21, 2018, 12:20:02 PM »
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  • Nothing wrong with what His Excellency Bishop +Fellay has said. Catholic Tradition needs voices in Rome. If we're not working for ultimate restoration in Rome, then what are we working for? If Rome says yes, nobody can deny the SSPX is Catholic, that's not a bad thing. Supplied jurisdiction is ok if a censure is invalid or if there is an emergency situation or something like that. But there's no reason our Bishops should not have ordinary jurisdiction now if the Pope is ready to grant that. It makes things slightly easier. The long road to restoration remains. One day, Bishop Fellay or some good SSPX Bishop should become a Cardinal, or a Cardinal friendly to Tradition should become Pope, or both. Then we can take it forward from there. That's the best thing to pray and work for the next 10-20 years.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #21 on: September 21, 2018, 12:41:09 PM »
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  • Quote
    But there's no reason our Bishops should not have ordinary jurisdiction now if the Pope is ready to grant that. It makes things slightly easier. The long road to restoration remains.
    The sspx is only going to get jurisdiction because they made concessions to Rome first.  The sspx has compromised Traditional Catholicism in the following ways:
    (This is not an exhaustive list, but only those concessions made recently):

    1.  By accepting ordinary jurisdiction, the sspx is indirectly admitting that their canon-law supported, traditional mindset of supplied jurisdiction is no longer necessary.  Effectively, they are admitting that they no longer view Rome as an enemy, as heretics, as modernists.  They are admitting that there is no longer an "emergency" situation in the Church, which is the reason for their existance.

    2.  By accepting ordinary jurisdiction, the sspx is admitting that their sacraments NEED to be approved by rome and, on the flip side, the sspx will also ACCEPT new-rome's sacraments as valid.  This is also the reason that the sspx has allowed the local modernists bishops/priests to "approve" of their weddings.  It's just another step towards "a deal".

    3.  By accepting ordinary jurisdiction, even if just for confessions, the sspx is indirectly accepting Rome's spiritual authority and they are preparing their sheeple for a deal, by conditioning them to become more and more comfy with new-rome, with their bishops/priests, with their sacraments and the indult (and God forbid, the novus ordo too...but that will eventually come).

    The changes that the sspx has made over the years, in order to be "blessed" by new-rome with this jurisdiction are many:

    1.  A reduction in anti-V2 and anti-modernist sermons.  An increase in sermons with the message of "we're all sinners" and "just because we're trads doesn't mean we're better than other catholics."  ...These sermon topics appear to be good on the surface, but when viewed at a high-level, and when mixed with all the other subtle changes in the society, they are anything but psychologically subversive of the traditional movement.

    2.  Confessions and marriages "approved by rome".  This is pretty self-explanatory.

    3.  Visits by the local bishops/priests to sspx schools and events.  Just more communistic conditioning of the sheeple.

    4.  Community events with fellow "indult" or "conservative novus ordo" catholics.  This includes pilgrimages, catholic conferences, school teachers, church picnics, etc.  The more time you hang around those who are different (i.e. As V2 would put it, the more "dialogue" you have), the more you are comfortable with error. 

    5.  Etc, etc.  One could write a book.  The actions taken and allowed by +Fellay and company are straight out of the communist handbook for subverting and changing an organiziation from within.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #22 on: September 21, 2018, 01:27:13 PM »
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  • Right, Pax.  If people don't think that these subtle poisons embedded in the thinking of +Fellay do any harm, then they have no idea how the process of corruption works.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #23 on: September 21, 2018, 02:37:02 PM »
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  • The sspx is only going to get jurisdiction because they made concessions to Rome first.  The sspx has compromised Traditional Catholicism in the following ways:
    (This is not an exhaustive list, but only those concessions made recently):

    1.  By accepting ordinary jurisdiction, the sspx is indirectly admitting that their canon-law supported, traditional mindset of supplied jurisdiction is no longer necessary.  Effectively, they are admitting that they no longer view Rome as an enemy, as heretics, as modernists.  They are admitting that there is no longer an "emergency" situation in the Church, which is the reason for their existance.

    2.  By accepting ordinary jurisdiction, the sspx is admitting that their sacraments NEED to be approved by rome and, on the flip side, the sspx will also ACCEPT new-rome's sacraments as valid.  This is also the reason that the sspx has allowed the local modernists bishops/priests to "approve" of their weddings.  It's just another step towards "a deal".

    3.  By accepting ordinary jurisdiction, even if just for confessions, the sspx is indirectly accepting Rome's spiritual authority and they are preparing their sheeple for a deal, by conditioning them to become more and more comfy with new-rome, with their bishops/priests, with their sacraments and the indult (and God forbid, the novus ordo too...but that will eventually come).

    The changes that the sspx has made over the years, in order to be "blessed" by new-rome with this jurisdiction are many:

    1.  A reduction in anti-V2 and anti-modernist sermons.  An increase in sermons with the message of "we're all sinners" and "just because we're trads doesn't mean we're better than other catholics."  ...These sermon topics appear to be good on the surface, but when viewed at a high-level, and when mixed with all the other subtle changes in the society, they are anything but psychologically subversive of the traditional movement.

    2.  Confessions and marriages "approved by rome".  This is pretty self-explanatory.

    3.  Visits by the local bishops/priests to sspx schools and events.  Just more communistic conditioning of the sheeple.

    4.  Community events with fellow "indult" or "conservative novus ordo" catholics.  This includes pilgrimages, catholic conferences, school teachers, church picnics, etc.  The more time you hang around those who are different (i.e. As V2 would put it, the more "dialogue" you have), the more you are comfortable with error.

    5.  Etc, etc.  One could write a book.  The actions taken and allowed by +Fellay and company are straight out of the communist handbook for subverting and changing an organiziation from within.
    I had to look twice at the author of this post; since it wrote as if one was explaining why, yes, 
     "sedevacantism."
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #24 on: September 21, 2018, 03:31:52 PM »
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  • This is all what is inherently wrong with remaining in communion with a heretic "pope". 
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline wallflower

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #25 on: September 21, 2018, 03:52:44 PM »
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  • No, in fact, he's reinforcing the misconception by implying that they are Catholic because Modernist Rome says they are, that they have the power to hear Confessions because Rome gave it to them.  This is implicily reinforcing the misconception that the SSPX are schismatic and certain of their Sacraments invalid because they lacked recognition from Rome.  So what happens when these approvals are lifted?  This is just his usual political nonsense and double-talk, and it does more harm than good.

    He could have said, "See, EVEN Rome says we're Catholic."
     

    This is exactly it. Many (if not most?) now-SSPXers have been at that crossroads of being told the SSPX is schismatic. It's a situation that many here are sympathetic to. But we are also aware of how important it is to make that jump for the right reasons. There is no upside to +Fellay perpetuating the idea that the SSPX is "safe to attend" because Pope Francis said so, rather than because the Church herself says so. In many ways it gives the Pope power that isn't necessarily his, which is quite damaging, especially today. It also orients a person's views even more toward following the Novus Ordo rather than grounding them in authentic Church teaching and authority.

    Some seem to have convinced themselves that there is an upside. Perhaps we will attract more people and convert the Novus Ordo! But all the rationalizations are false. How can they be anything else when they are based on a falsehood? The SSPX has "converted" many people before by teaching them about supplied jurisdiction and there is no reason they cannot still, because that's what's true. Some conservative NOs may be honestly and sincerely mistaken or unable to grasp it intellectually, or may need more time. God will have mercy on all of them accordingly. But many are choosing to be blind for all sorts of reasons; many that I know are held back by a fear of the overhaul of their lives if they were to look into it too deeply. Many are quite happy and comfortable with the laxity of the NO, even if they see the flaws. Diluting the SSPX message will not help either group. Not in the long run. People must have a true understanding of why they attend the SSPX and why it is safe to attend and receive their sacraments based on Church teachings. Anything less will end badly, regardless of the hopeful and promising projections.

    As an aside, it's so curious that +Fellay et al are engaging in this Pope-groveling now. Pope Francis has turned off so many sincere Catholics that I think they'd attract way more people than ever just by being themselves. Can you imagine the draw if the SSPX leadership were using their publicity to point out his error as the logical consequence of modernism and VII? The time is so ripe for them yet they are letting it pass by. If they were a corporation I'd wonder if someone in the thinktank needed to be fired. But then again, if this course has been a long range plan spanning a decade or so, it's tough to turn things around on a dime.


    Offline cosmas

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #26 on: September 21, 2018, 05:40:03 PM »
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  • Great Points brought out by Ladislaus,Pax Vobis etc... I  question Bishop Fellay's motives also. Has anyone asked him if the crisis is over to where we don't need supplied jurisdiction anymore ? Has anyone asked him why we need a standby n.o. priest at our marriages that are canonically sound because of supplied jurisdiction ? According to Canon Law in an extreme case you can marry without a witness. AT A LATER DATE once things become normal again you should seek out a priest to bless your marriage. Has anyone asked Bishop Fellay why The Founder of the Society of Pius X and Bishop de Castro Mayer were not mentioned in the lifting of the supposed excommunications. Has anyone asked Bishop Fellay why he has gone along with the facade that the SSPX was excommunicated while the Society produced books stating they were not. Why does he seek Rome's approval, ? for what. The Society has done nothing wrong, it has only kept the faith of all time. Some of Bishop Fellay's past statements ,he mentioned the society laity might get a schismatic attitude. I welcome this attitude if it will protect the society from embracing modernist Rome. ROME chose a schismatic attitude from the church of all time at vatican 2 and continues unabated. Rome is speeding up its prediction of becoming the seat of the anti-christ of what I and my family and friends want no part of. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #27 on: September 21, 2018, 10:16:47 PM »
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  • Exactly.  Here’s a real bad analogy.  The sspx is like a young adult who graduated high school and moved out of the house because their alcoholic, atheist, new-Rome Father was antagonistic of the Faith, manipulative and threatening.  Once moved out, the sspx tried to explain why they left but the father wouldn’t admit they had done anything wrong.  The father told all the family members that the sspx was a punk kid who didn’t love their family anymore and was self centered.  Meanwhile, most of the family turned against the kid because the father was a strong personality and a likable character.  How could he lie about such things, they asked themselves?  They never talked to the kid themselves just turned on them at the father’s word. 

    Fast forward 40 years and the father is in his old age and still won’t admit he drinks too much or that he’s abusive.  The now adult child tries to make peace with the father but to do so, the father requires that the adult child admit that his moving out had NOTHING to do with the father’s behavior.  The child has to take ALL the blame.  

    In reality, the father hasn’t changed one bit.  He’s still abusive, still manipulative and still wrong.  Should the sspx admit wrongs that didn’t happen?  Should the child support the father’s lies?  

    Absolutely not!  But +Fellay is indirectly proposing that the sspx apologize and act towards new-Rome as if they are a good hierarchy, as if they aren’t liars, Modernists and heretics.  He acts as if the sspx’s entire existence was a mistake and/or “no longer necessarily”.    

    This is communist reprogramming.  This is rewriting history for the younger generations whose parents didn’t teach them properly and who may not care themselves of the historical truth (they’re just there for the mass).  This is just an outright ignoring of new-rome’s betrayal of Christ.  God have mercy on +Fellay’s soul.  
     

    Offline nottambula

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #28 on: September 28, 2018, 03:05:17 AM »
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  • Rome is not Catholic!
    There’s an unfortunate video circulating on the internet showing former SSPX Superior General Bernard Fellay giddy as a school girl while informing Catholics in the Philippines that Conciliar Church officials think the Society of St. Pius X “is Catholic.”

    Ostensibly, this is a moment of joy for the Archbishop’s Society.

    Finally, the stench of “schism” has been lifted! Rome is our friend! Or at least no longer hostile to us! You see, they really do want to let us try our little experiment of Tradition!

    Certainly that is how Bishop Fellay wants his increasingly un-thinking flock to understand this latest development.

    Could His Excellency be more out of touch?

    At a time when Archbishop Carlo Vigano, the former Apostolic Nuncio to the US, has put his life on the line by going public with we all knew to be true – that there are corrupt, sex-obsessed ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs running the show at the Vatican – Bishop Fellay wants to draw our attention to the “good news” that these sick perverts think we are Catholic?

    My goodness. Talk about not just having a tin ear but possessing a complete and utter ignorance of the Gospel. Did Christ not say “If they hated me they will also hate you. No servant is greater than his master”?

    How dear Bishop Fellay went from supporting an open letterin 1988 saying the excommunications were a “mark of honor” to now being overjoyed that those same authorities think the Society is Catholic is a tragedy almost beyond compare in the modern world.

    The reason Bishop Fellay is so maniacally obsessed with being seen as Catholic by the completely un-Catholic Francis regime is, quite simply, because he’s a liberal driven by human-respect and marketing gimmicks.

    Archbishop Lefebvre, not a liberal, was not concerned with what Modernist Rome thought of him. He sought to please God first, not men. Politicking and PR moves, in other words, were not his thing. He was despised by the occupying powers in the Vatican due to his unrelenting exposing of error and insistence that Rome come back to Tradition. Near the near the end of his life, he undoubtedly wised up to their tricks and realized that to try and reason with men so completely drunk on Modernism was to engage in a dialogue of death – an utterly futile effort.

    Bishop Fellay, on the other hand, is, as Pope Francis once said, “a man with whom one can dialogue.” His statements indicate he does not even attempt to convince Pope Francis of Tradition. Rejecting prudence, he, like a dog going back to its vomit pile, constantly meets with with the usurpers in Rome destroying the Church not to get them to come back to the Syllabus but, ultimately, to find a fancy way to say “we agree to disagree,” for that is what a practical accord without doctrinal consensus truly is.

    The friendly contacts the Society has had with the Modernist Church and its bishops have undeniably influenced the way it conducts itself. Embarrassing initiatives like the failing FSSPX/News refusing to give any sort of meaningful criticism of issues that might cast Francis in a negative light is just one instance of this.

    The essential question that must be asked in all this is: To what end? What purpose or advantage does a Roman recognition of the SSPX’s “Catholicity” serve?

    SSPX mouthpieces will tell you it allows them to have a foot in the door with possible conservative converts who may be interested in the Archbishop’s arguments, but because the SSPX is “irregular” they tend to stay away. They’ll also say that it might allow them better press coverage in mainstream Catholic journals and give the Society more opportunities with local ordinaries.

    To this it must be said: And? So what?

    If anything, “conservative” Catholics who actually might be tempted to attend SSPX chapels are probably hesitating, scratching their head asking themselves: “Uh, Bishop Fellay, you do realize Francis is a complete and utter maniac burning down the Church, right? He covers up for sex abusers. You might not want to boast about how much he likes you. In fact, it’s probably a a better sign if he doesn’t like you.”

    Ultimately, God gives His grace to those who pursue truth. “Knock and you shall find. Seek and it will be given to you.” The truth is the truth. The world and the Church must conform itself to Tradition, not the other way around. The post-conciliar Church and Tradition, in other words, cannot both be considered Catholic.

    For the Society to play these PR games by stitching together wordplay on a string is a high wire act that, throughout history, God has never rewarded. Whenever human wisdom concocts some clever series of arguments, God removes his protective hand. And that is no doubt what is happening to the Society today. They despise being considered “beyond the pale” and are working around the clock to get that label removed from them. As a result, they have compromised who they are and day by day become ever more a shadow of what they used to be.

    "I think that he [Pope Benedict] was pushed... he semi-resigned... he didn't completely resign, he semi-resigned... he made way for another pope to take his place... but he kept, nevertheless, the white habit, he kept various things of the Papacy." - Bishop Williamson

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bp. Fellay: "Modern Church recognizes us as Catholics"
    « Reply #29 on: September 28, 2018, 07:44:08 AM »
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  • Ah, yes, the "experiment" of Tradition.  +Fellay is content to take his place beside all the other heretics and schismatics that are welcome in the Novus Ordo.  He sets up Tradition in the syncretistic pantheon of religions that the Novus Ordo is becoming, and in that is little different than John Paul II placing Catholicism next to statues of Buddha at Assisi.  Shame on +Fellay for dropping his grain of incense to these syncretists.  Tradition is no experiment.  So the Novus Ordites who are willing to let just about any heretical group "experiment" in their Conciliar establishment are to be praised for giving them a seat at the table.  Maybe at the next Assisi gathering, they could set up a booth for +Fellay next to the Muslims and infidels (people he claims can be saved without Catholic faith).