Author Topic: Blasphemous Crusades? (Read 2230 times)

SeanJohnson · « **on:** March 23, 2014, 07:46:30 PM »

CI-

Some are saying that Bishop Fellay and Rome had already worked out an agreement for the freeing of the Mass, and the lifting of the excommunications (and now for a practical accord under Francis) before the Crusades for these intentions were implemented, and that therefore, these Crusades are blasphemous.

To these, I pose a question:

If you were interviewing for a job, and were told, "We are going to offer you employment," but the employer had not yet presented you with an offer letter, would it be blasphemous to have your family pray, in light of this knowledge, that the employer followed through on his pledge?

Obviously not.

Likewise, if behind closed doors Bishop Fellay and Rome come to a gentleman's agreement (but not an official agreement), how does it become blasphemy for Bishop Fellay afterwards to initiate Crusades in the hopes Rome will follow through?

This intention is quite far removed from blasphemy.

If you wish to assert that Bishop Fellay used the Crusades blasphemously, you must be able to show that his intention was to make it seem as though heaven blessed his plans (as opposed to misinterpreting the results), not that he instituted them in the hopes that Rome follow through with what had been agreed behind closed doors, as seems more probable.

The difference between the two intentions is acute: The former implies deceit and treachery; the latter implies pius reliance on providence.

This subject once again provides fertile ground for recounting the Church's teaching on rash judgment (i.e., Unquestioning conviction about another's bad conduct, without adequate grounds for the judgment), and I think it impossible to pretend there exists adequate grounds when the matter pertains to the internal forum (i.e., Bishop Fellay's intention).

If myself I do not participate in this Rosary Crusade, it is not because I think them blasphemous, but because I do not support a practical accord with unconverted Rome, which I consider profoundly imprudent (and this intention "for the return of tradition to the Church" could be interpreted as praying for a practical accord).

The battle to restore the Church must be fought within the confines of Catholic morals, and to publicly impute blasphemous intention (as against the more probable explanation I have provided) is no small thing.

Our duty, if we wish to presume, is to presume the best in others.

And while I may disagree with the intention of the present Crusade, it is obvious Bishop Fellay pursues this agenda in good faith, which is anything but blasphemous.

Sean Johnson

Matthew · « **Reply #1 on:** March 23, 2014, 08:00:14 PM »

If we're praying that the employer follow through on his job offer, it would be nice for US to also know that we have a gentleman's agreement that we got the job.

In other words, Bishop Fellay should tell us that he's made a secret deal, and we're just praying that it goes through. You know, "transparency".

Any good leader is transparent on things of this nature. Abp Lefebvre certainly was.

In fact, far from sharing this information with us, Bishop Fellay went on record saying there wouldn't be a deal!! How does that show good faith?

Matthew · « **Reply #2 on:** March 23, 2014, 08:07:09 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson

If myself I do not participate in this Rosary Crusade, it is not because I think them blasphemous, but because I do not support a practical accord with unconverted Rome, which I consider profoundly imprudent (and this intention "for the return of tradition to the Church" could be interpreted as praying for a practical accord).

Exactly. The true Traditional Catholics and the modern Rome-leaning Accordistas will each interpret it in their own way.

How do you say "weasel" in Latin?

SeanJohnson · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2014, 08:07:36 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

If we're praying that the employer follow through on his job offer, it would be nice for US to also know that we have a gentleman's agreement that we got the job.

In other words, Bishop Fellay should tell us that he's made a secret deal, and we're just praying that it goes through. You know, "transparency".

Any good leader is transparent on things of this nature. Abp Lefebvre certainly was.

In fact, far from sharing this information with us, Bishop Fellay went on record saying there wouldn't be a deal!! How does that show good faith?

Matthew-

I happen to agree with you.

But mismanagement does not equal blasphemy.

Pax tecuм,

Sean Johnson

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2014, 08:11:37 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson

Quote from: Matthew
If we're praying that the employer follow through on his job offer, it would be nice for US to also know that we have a gentleman's agreement that we got the job.

In other words, Bishop Fellay should tell us that he's made a secret deal, and we're just praying that it goes through. You know, "transparency".

Any good leader is transparent on things of this nature. Abp Lefebvre certainly was.

In fact, far from sharing this information with us, Bishop Fellay went on record saying there wouldn't be a deal!! How does that show good faith?

Matthew-

I happen to agree with you.

But mismanagement does not equal blasphemy.

Pax tecuм,

Sean Johnson

Well, I don't exactly disagree with your OP either. I wouldn't use the word "blasphemy". I don't know what % of Resistance supporters, CI members, etc. would use that term to refer to the latest Rosary Crusade.

But especially in light of his public "backpedaling" statements in late 2013/early 2014, one would have to grant: deceptive, cynical, etc.

And that "judgment" is reached by evidence in the external forum, logic, and the nature of things.

Kelley · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2014, 08:35:38 PM »

According to "Towards a Necessary Reconciliation" by Fr. Michel Lelong, about the GREC - manipulation might be a more accurate assessment.

TKGS · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2014, 04:56:18 AM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson

CI-

Some are saying that Bishop Fellay and Rome had already worked out an agreement for the freeing of the Mass...

The Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate have found out how "free" the traditional (1962) Mass really is, haven't they.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2014, 02:49:41 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: SeanJohnson
Quote from: Matthew
If we're praying that the employer follow through on his job offer, it would be nice for US to also know that we have a gentleman's agreement that we got the job.

In other words, Bishop Fellay should tell us that he's made a secret deal, and we're just praying that it goes through. You know, "transparency".

Any good leader is transparent on things of this nature. Abp Lefebvre certainly was.

In fact, far from sharing this information with us, Bishop Fellay went on record saying there wouldn't be a deal!! How does that show good faith?

Matthew-
I happen to agree with you. But mismanagement does not equal blasphemy.
Pax tecuм,
Sean Johnson

mismanagement? really?

Quote

Well, I don't exactly disagree with your OP either. I wouldn't use the word "blasphemy". I don't know what % of Resistance supporters, CI members, etc. would use that term to refer to the latest Rosary Crusade.

But especially in light of his public "backpedaling" statements in late 2013/early 2014, one would have to grant: deceptive, cynical, etc.

And that "judgment" is reached by evidence in the external forum, logic, and the nature of things.

Okay, if you don't like the word, 'blasphemy', (and I don't like the word, "mismanagement,") then maybe you'd like the vocabulary of the Faithful of Bogota, Columbia, who have publicly voiced their support of their staunchly Traditional, forthright and wise pastor, Father Fernando Altamira:

doctrinal deviation
secret involvement in subversion
submission to apostate, modernist, blind and erring Rome
this subversive intention is not justified
to achieve 'regularization' they used constant ambiguity:
ambiguity of language
abuse of authority
excessive diplomacy
secrets
political calculations
strange tricks
By way of the Rosary Crusades they:
manipulate the piety of the faithful
manipulate the good will of the faithful, etc.
sowing doubt and confusion among the faithful, and
a total loss of confidence in the superiors
this constitutes a grave and unprecedented situation in the Society
this tactic of ambiguity
MODERNISM *the synthesis of all heresies* (the Grand Sewer of heresy)
that was introduced into the Church post-Vat.II
is now influencing the decisions of the Society of St. Pius X
the same cunning and brutality used when it occupied Rome (post Vat.II)
false obedience
The battle for the Truth is no longer the priority of the Society leadership
it is no longer the combat of the Society leadership
Priests with unshakable courage to take up this battle are expelled:
through illegal judgments
without sufficiently clear doctrinal answers
proving a liberal contamination in the leadership of the Society
giving rise to interests other than
defense of Faith and
the principles of ABL
The Superior General has gone soft against the errors of Vat.II
demanding a false, illusory obedience
this involves a grave betrayal of the Truth, which is Christ Our Lord
This deviation from the truth puts the battle inside the SSPX
instead of outside where the real enemy SHOULD be
Ancient enemies of the Church are praised and defended
SSPX leaders have ceased denouncing:
the new heretical doctrines and the
liberals and the
modernist hierarchy who spread them
The action taken against Fr. Altamira is
gravely unjust and
unfounded
LIBERAL DRIFT of the SSPX
SELF-DESTRUCTION of the work of ABL
this is the WORST CRISIS in the HISTORY of the CHURCH

[From TheRecusant #14, Feb. 2014, p. 16-17]:

~ the doctrinal deviation of the SSPX
~ the SSPX leaders were secretly involved in efforts to [subvert] the work of ABL
~ [subvert] = to place [it] in submission to apostate, modernist, blind and erring Rome
~ this intention of the SSPX authorities was not justified before the faithful in a frank and transparent way
~ [to achieve 'regularization' they] made use of a constant ambiguity of language, abuse of authority, excessive diplomacy, secrets, political calculations and strange tricks
~ like the launching of Rosary Crusades which manipulate the piety and good will of the faithful, etc.
~ [this] has sown doubt and confusion among the Faithful
~ [it has therefore] generated a total loss of confidence in the superiors
~ All of this constitutes a grave and unprecedented situation in the history of the Society.
~ this tactic of ambiguity (lead us to believe that)
~ (the same organization the pre-conciliar Magisterium denounced and condemned, the well-known nєω ωσrℓ∂ σr∂єr that occupied Rome and) introduced modernism (the synthesis of all heresies) into the Church, is influencing the decisions of the Society
~ (the same) cunning and brutality [used when it occupied Rome through Vat.II]
~ trying to destroy the Society by means of false obedience
~ the battle (against the enemies of Truth, in defence of the Faith) is no longer the combat of the leadership of the Society or its priority
~ [but] priests who have had the courage to remain unshakable in the truth have been expelled
~ (by means of) illegal judgments
~ (and) without being given sufficiently clear doctrinal answers
~ (proving a) liberal contamination (in the leadership of the Society)
~ (giving rise to) interests other than the defence of Faith (and the principles of ABL)
~ The Superior [General] has softened the previous position of categorical rejection of Vatican II
~ all obedience regarding the seeking of unity with apostate Rome is false, illusory, and involves a grave betrayal of the the Truth which is Christ Our Lord
~ (Because of the) deviation of the authorities (of the Society) the battlefield seems today to be inside the Society and not outside where the real enemy is
~ powerful ancestral enemies of the Church are feared and even praised and defended (while Fr. Altamira is attacked)
~ the leadership of the SSPX have ceased denouncing and resolutely fighting the new heretical doctrines and the liberals and modernist hierarchy who spread them
~ (We reject) as gravely unjust and unfounded (the action taken against Fr. Altamira, his dismissal as Prior of Bogota and his transfer out of Colombia)
~ (Because Fr. A. resists) any change in Catholic doctrine (we follow him in that) Resistance
~ (We reject) the liberal drift of the SSPX
~ (We are witnessing the) self-destruction of the work of ABL
~ [this is the] worst crisis in the history of the Church

P.S. The term "mismanagement" falls flat, in context, a LIMP NOODLE.

.

hugeman · « **Reply #8 on:** March 28, 2014, 12:34:20 AM »

Sean, you have missed the boat. It is hardly mismanagement. In fact, from the perspective of Fellay, Schmidberger, Lorans, Nely, Rostand, Anglais , LeRoux and too many others, had the scheme worked, it would have been great management! ( high fives all around, boys!).

From the viewpoint of Ratzinger, Hoyos, Mueller, deNoia and their ilk, it was pure and simple
deceit and incompetence--because the SSPX "team" made the "conciliar" team think most
SSPX-ers were on board.

From the viewpoint of Jesus Christ, it was simply cunning, deceitful, and dishonest not to tell the faithful that , through GREC, Rome had already agreed to do the things we are now asking you to pray to the Blesssed Mother for-- and these rosaries have as their objective the dissolution of your faith!

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2014, 03:10:39 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: SeanJohnson

If myself I do not participate in this Rosary Crusade, it is not because I think them blasphemous, but because I do not support a practical accord with unconverted Rome, which I consider profoundly imprudent (and this intention "for the return of tradition to the Church" could be interpreted as praying for a practical accord).

Exactly. The true Traditional Catholics and the modern Rome-leaning Accordistas will each interpret it in their own way.

How do you say "weasel" in Latin?

Depends on what word you want to use.

There's mustelam, or decepio. Mustelam is a noun, which refers to the animal, and weasel, meaning, to sucker or deceive, is decepio. Hope that helped. :dancing-banana:

stgobnait · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2014, 04:52:18 AM »

blasphemous or not, BF tried to play the pied piper, but some people were awake, and still are... :dwarf: