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Author Topic: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy  (Read 5917 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2023, 05:22:40 PM »
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  • If people believe that Pius XII was a true pope, then they can't complain about Bugnini, because at the end of the day, Pius XII approved the Holy Week changes.

    Pius XII was of a Jєωιѕн banker family background... no? 
     
    Montini was of Jєωιѕн family background too, who undeniably contributed to the torture and murder of underground Catholic priests in Russia in the 1940's. 

    He is also attributed with collaborating with Zionists in 1939 to target the largest Catholic populations within Japan (Hiroshima & Nagasaki), resulting in their nuclear annihilation 6 years later. 




    Buginni was a docuмented freemason, and obviously one of Pacelli's bigger papal decision-making failures.

    His infiltration and corruption of the Liturgy will be protested by Holy Mother Church until the end of time.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #31 on: December 19, 2023, 05:39:43 PM »
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  • No one has ever held that a Pope is infallible or guided by the Holy Spirit in terms of his appointments.  You're conflating this with the Holy Ghost's protection over the Magisterium and the Universal Discipline (the Public Worship) of the Church.  Not to mention that this has nothing to do with "obedience".  What are we supposed to obey, since all of the Cardinals and Bishops appointed by Pius XII are now dead?

    You are correct, my mistake.

    I would imagine that the Sedevantantists would be bound to obey the 1955 Holy Week, since it was approved by a legitimate Pope.

    About the fact that Pius XII was sick and did not really personally approve the 1955 rites, wouldn't it make more sense to suppose that a real Pope's papacy would be protected by the Holy Spirit, and not just the Pope personally, regarding the Universal Discipline?

    Pius XII would publish beautiful encyclicals, but, in practice, he acted like they were non-existent.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #32 on: December 19, 2023, 05:45:51 PM »
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  • Regarding the 1955 Holy Week changes, the docuмent that promulgated it clearly stated that Pius XII reluctantly approved the changes only after being constantly pestered by certain bishops for the previous 5 years. And, further, the majority of the changes are simply recommendations that are not legally required.

    https://www.romanitaspress.com/maxima-redemptionis

    The docuмent has two separate parts: 1) the actual decree of Pius XII and 2) an Instruction from the Congregation of Rites.

    1. The Decree itself was very short, mostly dealing with changes in the timing of the liturgical events. And even these changes were made reluctantly by Pius XII.

    "The Most Eminent Fathers, assembled in extraordinary congregation at the Vatican Palace on July 19, 1955, after mature deliberation, recommended by unanimous vote that the restored Order of Holy Week should be approved and prescribed, if it should please His Holiness.
     
    When all these matters had been individually reported to the Holy Father by the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, His Holiness deigned to approve the recommendations of the Most Eminent Cardinals."



    2. Separate from "the decree" was an attached "instruction" from the Congregation. It says:

    "Since the purpose of the restored Order of Holy Week is this, that the venerable liturgy of these days, restored to hours that are suitable and at the same time convenient, may be attended by the faithful more easily, more devoutly, and more fruitfully, it is of the greatest importance that this salutary purpose should be brought to the desired conclusion.
     
    Therefore it has seemed advisable to this Sacred Congregation of Rites to add an Instruction to the general decree on the restored Order of Holy Week, by which the transition to the new order may be made easier and the faithful led more safely to the richer fruits that may be received from a living participation in the sacred ceremonies.
     
    The knowledge and observance of this Instruction is therefore imposed upon all concerned."


    So, the details contained in the "Instruction" were not "decreed" by Pius XII. And what is "imposed" by the Instruction is the "knowledge and observation" of these "instructions," not a requirement to implement everything recommended. In other words, the "instructions" are merely recommendations by the Congregation with no binding legal force. To refuse to carry out the contents of the "Instruction" would not be illegal. 

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #33 on: December 19, 2023, 06:48:17 PM »
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  • What is this nonsense?  I thought we're interested in the truth and not some kind of political machinations around who can rightly lay claim to some meaningless title such as "faithful heirs of Archbishop Lefebvre"?  Archbishop Lefebvre changed his mind over the course of the years, and could very well be a sedevacantist right now given the phenomenon of Bergoglio.  He nearly went SV at Wojtyla's Assisi meeting, and Bergoglio makes Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison.

    Is +Lefebvre some kind of infallible rule of faith or something?  Did he have a single consistent position on every issue during his entire life?  During the early 1980s, his thinking differed very little from that of +Fellay and his neo-SSPX now.  As Matthew pointed out, the situation had changed since then.  And it's changed again since the Archbishop passed away.  So what makes anyone sure whether or not he would have changed again in response to Jorge?  Nothing.

    We seek the truth and not some political nonsense about being THE faithful heirs of +Lefebvre.  To outsiders, this is ludicrous.  "We're the faithful heirs of +Lefebvre.  No, you aren't, we are.  You're unfaithful to +Lefebvre.  I know you are, but what am I?  I dare you.  I double dare you.  I double dog dare you."  How puerile.

    Part of this comes form the fact that R&R want to fill the vacuum of not having (what they claim to be) the Magisterium as their rule of faith, by coming up with a substitute rule of faith to fill the vacuum, and so they set +Lefebvre up in that role, something which I'm sure he would have eschewed.
    I was hoping that this post would not degenerate into this same old quarrel, though I half expected it. I was really posting for the benefit of the Resistance, which is why I posted in that section, for those of us who had already decided on these "issues of the Nine". Suffice to say in response to all your questions and accusations, Ladislaus, that it is not puerile to follow in these matters the prince of the Church that God gave us. Nothing has substantially changed since the time of Archbishop Lefebvre, and there is no certain reason for us to change direction guided by the Catholic principles that he so clearly enunciated.

    Is +Lefebvre some kind of infallible rule of faith or something?... We seek the truth and not some political nonsense about being THE faithful heirs of +Lefebvre. He is the faithful Catholic guide that God gave us, that is what he is. A learned and saintly man of the Church. We recognise the voice of the Good Shepherd, that is why we follow him. "Be ye followers of me as I also am of Christ". How puerile of St Paul?! We don't have a good reason not to follow him. You choose your own way. So be it. I know which of those two ways sounds Catholic to me.

    If all Traditionalists had followed the lead of the guide God gave us in Archbishop Lefebvre, we would all be united today, what an extraordinary and irresistible force that would have been for the good of the Church. There would have been no danger to the Faith. We have seen the good fruits. It could only have been to the glory of God and the salvation of souls. That is what we seek, Ladislaus, that is what we seek. Let Rome decide on these other uncertain issues in more propitious times.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #34 on: December 20, 2023, 08:32:44 AM »
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  • I would imagine that the Sedevantantists would be bound to obey the 1955 Holy Week, since it was approved by a legitimate Pope.

    Yes, so that's where their argument from epikeia comes in, that if we had a Traditional pope now (since Pius XII is no longer the pope), given the benefit of hindsight, he would roll back the 1955 changes.

    Now, some sedevacantists, notably the CMRI, do use the 1955 Holy Week Rites.


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #35 on: December 20, 2023, 08:50:32 AM »
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  • Yes, so that's where their argument from epikeia comes in, that if we had a Traditional pope now (since Pius XII is no longer the pope), given the benefit of hindsight, he would roll back the 1955 changes.

    Now, some sedevacantists, notably the CMRI, do use the 1955 Holy Week Rites.

    Pretty creative, in my opinion.

    They know how a future Pope will think and what he will do.

    They accuse the SSPX of "pick and choose", and, yet, they do the same.

    I have never had any contact with them, but it seems to me that this CMRI is the most reasonable Sedevacantist group.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #36 on: December 20, 2023, 08:50:42 AM »
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  • Suffice to say in response to all your questions and accusations, Ladislaus, that it is not puerile to follow in these matters the prince of the Church that God gave us. Nothing has substantially changed since the time of Archbishop Lefebvre, and there is no certain reason for us to change direction guided by the Catholic principles that he so clearly enunciated.

    No, what I was referring to as puerile is this dispute about the competing claims that this group or the other group are the "true heirs" of +Lefebvre.  As for "following" +Lefebvre's "principles that he so clearly enunciated," apart from some core tenets that he always held to, with regard to the question of SVism vs. R&R, there was absolutely nothing "clear" about them, nor was he consistent over the years.  During the early 1980s, the things he was saying could have been uttered by +Fellay a couple years ago.  By the mid-1980s, he said that he might have to become an SV due to Wojtyla's activities.  What, then, would he say about Bergoglio's activities, which make Wojtyla look like St. Pius X by comparison?  Nothing "substantially changed" either between the early 1980s and the mid-1980s, and yet +Lefebvre changed his mind.

    +Lefebvre repeatedly stated that SV is a legitimate theological position (citing St. Robert and others who discussed the matter) IN PRINCIPLE, but questioned whether it applied to the case of Wojtyla.  So the difference isn't in the principle, which he consistently agreed was viable, but about its application.  How would he have applied it to the case of Jorge Bergoglio?

    Now, one of "the Catholic principles that [+Lefebvre] so clearly enunciated" was that the Papacy is guided by the Holy Spirit and that this degree of destruction is "impossible", i.e. inconsistent with that guidance by the Holy Spirit.  This is one eminently clear "Catholic principle" that most of those who claim to be +Lefebvre's heirs have conveniently discarded.  +Lefebvre's only hesitation was in coming up with the exact explanation for how all this happened, and also in deferring to the final judgment of the Church.  But he came a hair's breadth from coming out publicly as sedevacantist when confronted with the abomination that was Assisi.  And who's to say that he would not have done so in the case of Bergoglio?

    Bottom line is that the PRINCIPLES of +Lefebvre were mostly (except in the early 1980s) open to the possibility of SVism and the difference was in their APPLICATION to the concrete situation and concrete scenarios.  Since he's no longer around to apply his principles to the case of Jorge, we have no idea where he would have gone.  Would he have gone Bennyvacantist?  sedevacantist? sedeimpoundist?  We don't know, so we have to stop treating +Lefebvre as though he's 1) some rule of faith and, what's more, 2) some LIVING rule of faith (since he's no longer alive).

    Archbishop Lefebvre was a great man, but still just a man ... and he made some mistakes, especially with regard to practical judgment (appointing various SSPX leadership ... +Fellay, Schmidberger, and numerous others), and in some cases with regard to theological issues (where he adopted and promoted Rahner's "Anonymous Christian" soteriology).  I believe he was mistaken in expelling The Nine also, since at the time he was of the "practical agreement" mindset that +Fellay later adopted.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #37 on: December 20, 2023, 04:53:37 PM »
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  • +Lefebvre repeatedly stated that SV is a legitimate theological position (citing St. Robert and others who discussed the matter) IN PRINCIPLE, but questioned whether it applied to the case of Wojtyla.  So the difference isn't in the principle, which he consistently agreed was viable, but about its application. 

    “Now I don’t wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a Pope to be publicly and formally heretical. Our Lord has promised to be with him, to keep his faith, to keep him in the Faith—how can he at the same time be a public heretic and virtually apostatize? So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope (i.e., John Paul II) is not pope.”
    (Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, 1986)

    "…..we prefer to wait until Providence gives us such evidence, that it is no longer possible to refuse to say that the Pope is a heretic."
    (Ibid)

    Source

    It's all about the evidence (i.e., indicia of heresy).


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #38 on: December 20, 2023, 04:59:51 PM »
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  • Pius XII was of a Jєωιѕн banker family background... no?
    .

    No. His family worked in banking, maybe even for the Rothschilds if I recall correctly, but I've never seen any evidence he had Jєωιѕн blood.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #39 on: December 20, 2023, 05:09:30 PM »
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  • Pretty creative, in my opinion.

    They know how a future Pope will think and what he will do.

    They accuse the SSPX of "pick and choose", and, yet, they do the same.

    I have never had any contact with them, but it seems to me that this CMRI is the most reasonable Sedevacantist group.
    What position do you hold GB?  I can't seem to figure it out based on your posts.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #40 on: December 20, 2023, 05:15:46 PM »
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  • Lefebvre on Papal heresy and scandal

    https://www.ecclesiamilitans.com/Talks_Given_Archbishop_Marcel_Lefebvre_March_30_April_18_1986_The_Angelus_July_1986.pdf



    Now I don't know if the time has come to say that the Pope is a heretic; I don't know if it is the time to say that. You know, for some time many people, the sedevacantists, have been saying "there is no more Pope," but I think that for me it was not yet the time to say that, because it was not sure, it was not evident, it was very difficult to say that the Pope is a heretic, the Pope is apostate. But I recognize that slowly, very slowly, by the deeds and acts of the Pope himself we begin to be very anxious.

    I am not inventing this situation; I do not want it. I would gladly give my life to bring it to an end, but this is the situation we face, unfolding before our eyes like a film in the cinema. I don't think it has ever happened in the history of the Church, the man seated in the chair of Peter partaking in the worship of false gods.

    What conclusion must we draw in a few months if we are confronted by these repeated acts of partaking in false worship? I don't know. I wonder. But I think the Pope can do nothing worse than call together a meeting of all religions, when we know there is only one true religion and all other religions belong to the devil. So perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the Pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don't wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a Pope to be publicly and formally heretical. Our Lord has promised to be with him, to keep his faith, to keep him in the Faith—how can he at the same time be a public heretic and virtually apostatize? So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.

    For twenty years, Msgr. de Castro-Mayer and I preferred to wait; we said it was more prudent and more in conformity with Providence to wait because it is so important, so tragic, when it is not just a bishop, archbishop or cardinal, but the man in the chair of Peter. It is so important, so grave, so sad, that we prefer to wait until Providence gives us such evidence, that it is no longer possible to refuse to say that the Pope is a heretic. So, to say that I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it!



    Now some priests (even some priests in the Society) say that we Catholics need not worry about what is happening in the Vatican; we have the true sacraments, the true Mass, the true doctrine, so why worry about whether the Pope is a heretic or an imposter or whatever; it is of no importance to us. But I think that is not true.

    If any man is important in the Church, it is the Pope. He is the center of the Church and has a great influence on all Catholics by his attitudes, his words and his acts. All men read in the newspapers the Pope's words and on television they see his travels. And so, slowly, slowly, many Catholics are losing the Catholic Faith by the scandal of the Pope's partaking in false religions. This ecuмenism is a scandal in the true sense of the word, an encouragement to sin. Catholics are losing faith in the Catholic Church. They think all religions are good because the Pope in this way befriends men of all religions. When the scandal comes from so high in the Church, from the man in the chair of Peter and from almost all the bishops, then poor Catholics who are thrown back on their own resources and who do not know their Faith well enough to keep it despite all, or who do not have priests by their side to help them to keep the Faith, these Catholics are completely at a loss what to do. They are no longer practicing the Faith, or they give up praying, or they are losing the Faith altogether and are joining some sect or other. I ask, what people are keeping the Faith? Where are they? Where are they? And I ask even the Traditionalists!

    For I think that many Traditional Catholics enjoy the traditions; they like the old Mass, they like the old sacraments, they like the old teaching of the Church, but they do not really believe in Jesus Christ as the one and only Savior, God and Creator. That is the bad influence of all the modern errors coming through television and the media—they are so bad, so pagan, so opposed to Jesus Christ and the Catholic Faith that few people remain true Catholics wholly faithful to Jesus Christ. That is why we can't be indifferent to these scandalous events in Rome, we must judge them in the light of our Faith and help Catholics, traditional Catholics, to see that this bad example of the Pope is a great scandal, very dangerous for their souls.
     


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #41 on: December 20, 2023, 05:42:14 PM »
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  • No, what I was referring to as puerile is this dispute about the competing claims that this group or the other group are the "true heirs" of +Lefebvre.  As for "following" +Lefebvre's "principles that he so clearly enunciated," apart from some core tenets that he always held to, with regard to the question of SVism vs. R&R, there was absolutely nothing "clear" about them, nor was he consistent over the years. 
    There is no greater appellation for a religious than to be called a true son of the founder. 'The true sons of St Benedict', 'The true sons of St Dominic', 'The true sons of St Alphonsus'. It attests to their fidelity: fidelity to their founder and so fidelity to their vocation and fidelity to the Church. That is obvious. That is not puerile.

    It is clear that Archbishop Lefebvre did have a principle and a final decision on this matter of the liturgy. So too with sedevacantism, for which I refer you to my recent posting on sedevacantism from the Benedictine website. His final position, even after the meetings of Assisi and a Pope who had kissed the Koran, was that the Church has not settled this matter and that we should presume in favour of his being Pope, pray for him, yet "it is therefore a strict duty for any priest wanting to remain Catholic to separate himself from this Conciliar Church for as long as it does not rediscover the Tradition of the Church and of the Catholic Faith".

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #42 on: December 20, 2023, 05:49:46 PM »
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  • What position do you hold GB?  I can't seem to figure it out based on your posts.

    Honestly, I don't really know.

    I go to the SSPX for lack of viable options, but I don't really care for their R&R thesis.

    I like the Cassiciacuм Thesis, but that Una cuм thing is completely nonsense to me.

    I really don't like dogmatic people, be it R&R, Sedevacantism or whatever.

    My personal situation does not require me to have a clear position. I am not a priest. I just want to be a Catholic. Am I a bad person for that? Some will probably think so.

    It seems kind of puerile to me to have a strong position either way. I find the "mitigated" Sedevacantist positions to be more probable. Can't we be like St. Alphonsus and tolerate probable opinions?

    My biggest ambition is to have valid sacraments and solid Catholic sermons. I can be happy with this much.

    The only thing that I won't accept at all are Novus Ordo Holy Orders. This is non-negotiable to me.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #43 on: December 20, 2023, 07:28:49 PM »
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  • Honestly, I don't really know.

    I go to the SSPX for lack of viable options, but I don't really care for their R&R thesis.

    I like the Cassiciacuм Thesis, but that Una cuм thing is completely nonsense to me.

    I really don't like dogmatic people, be it R&R, Sedevacantism or whatever.

    My personal situation does not require me to have a clear position. I am not a priest. I just want to be a Catholic. Am I a bad person for that? Some will probably think so.

    It seems kind of puerile to me to have a strong position either way. I find the "mitigated" Sedevacantist positions to be more probable. Can't we be like St. Alphonsus and tolerate probable opinions?

    My biggest ambition is to have valid sacraments and solid Catholic sermons. I can be happy with this much.

    The only thing that I won't accept at all are Novus Ordo Holy Orders. This is non-negotiable to me.
    Ok, thanks GB. That explains why a position doesn't seem to come thru your posts. I wasn't trying to judge you as a person.  

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Bishop Zendejas' Advice on 1962 Liturgy
    « Reply #44 on: December 20, 2023, 07:52:30 PM »
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  • Ok, thanks GB. That explains why a position doesn't seem to come thru your posts. I wasn't trying to judge you as a person. 

    You are welcome. No offence taken.