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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions  (Read 4957 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2021, 11:21:09 PM »
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  • I'm beginning to wonder if Bishop Williamson's housekeeper's characterization of him weren't right after all.  Would explain a lot about his protection of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ predators.  Or perhaps that was just due to his excessive purity, wherein he perceived the predatory activities of Urrutigoity to be pure ... which is how Urrutigoity himself reportedly spun them, that thinking anything might be wrong there was a sign of Jansenism.  When Urrutigoity was caught in bed fondling a seminarian's genitals, that was just Urrutigoity being "pure" and anyone who had issues with it would be guilty of a "corrupt" mind.
    What did his housekeeper say 

    Offline Andrew Kim

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #31 on: May 24, 2021, 11:25:16 PM »
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  • To be fair to you, lack of an imprimatur was one of the reasons given. But it is inaccurate or misleading to imply that it was the only, or the most important, reason for the work being placed on the Index. Or to say that it was an accidental oversight.

    "Confident of papal approval, Father Berti brought the books to the Vatican press. However, in 1949, two commissioners of the Holy Office, Msgr. Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P., condemned the "Poem," ordering Berti to hand over every copy and sign an agreement not to publish it. Father Berti returned the manuscripts to Valtorta and handed over only his typed versions.

    Despite his signed promise, in 1952 Father Berti went to publisher Emiliano Pisani. Though aware of the Holy Office's opposition, Pisani printed the first volume in 1956, and a new volume each year through 1959.
    When volume four appeared, the Holy Office examined the "Poem" and condemned it, recommending that it be placed on the Index of Forbidden Books Dec. 16, 1959. Pope John XXIII signed the decree and ordered it published. L'Osservatore Romano, on Jan. 6, 1960, printed the condemnation with an accompanying front-page article, "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus," to explain it.

    The article complained that the "Poem" broke Canon Law.

    "Though they treat exclusively of religious issues, these volumes do not have an "imprimatur," which is required by Canon 1385, sect. 1, n. 2."

    Second, the long speeches of Jesus and Mary starkly contrast with the evangelists, who portray Jesus as "humble, reserved; His discourses are lean, incisive." Valtorta's fictionalized history makes Jesus sound "like a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of God," or teach theology in modern terms. The Blessed Mother speaks like a "propagandist" for modern Marian theology.

    Third, "some passages are rather risque," like the "immodest" dance before Pilate (vol. 5, p. 73). There are "many historical, geographical and other blunders." For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195, 223), centuries before screws existed.

    There are theological errors, as when "Jesus says" (vol. 1, p. 30) that Eve's temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent sensuously "caressed" her. While she "began the sin by herself," she "accomplished it with her companion." Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta may claim the first sin was sɛҳuąƖ, but Scripture does not.
    Vol. 1, p. 7, oddly claims, "Mary can be called the 'second-born' of the Father . . ." Her explanation limits the meaning, avoiding evidence of an authentic heresy; but it does not take away the basic impression that she wants to construct a new mariology, which simply goes beyond the limits of propriety." "Another strange and imprecise statement" made of Mary (vol. 4, p. 240) is that she will "be second to Peter with regard to ecclesiastical hierarchy. . . " Our Lady surpasses St. Peter's holiness, but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to St. Peter.

    Further, Valtorta did not claim to write a novel, but called herself a "secretary" of Jesus and Mary, so, "in all parts on reads the words 'Jesus says. . .' or 'Mary says . . .'" The Church takes this claim to revelation very seriously, since it has the God-given duty to discern what is or is not truly from the Holy Spirit. In Valtorta's case, the Church decided against Divine inspiration.

    Finally, "Poem" is condemned for reasons of disobedience. Competent Church authority had prohibited the printing of Valtorta's work."

    I don't think there wasn't any problem at pre-Vatican 2 Church authority, especially on imprimatur.
    For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia Vol.4(1913) which had an imprimatur by +Cardinal John Murphy Farley(Archbishop of New York) during the reign of Pope St. Pius X, describes that the Deluge of Noah was a local flood.
    It was even during the reign of St. Pius X.
    If the Churchmen who condemned the Poem were a man like +Cardinal John Farley who was created Cardinal by St. Pius X in 1911, then can there be any ABSOLUTE authority on their condemnation of the book?
    I don't believe that the time of Pius XII was much better than the time of St. Pius X, because since the outbreak of Liberalism and Modernism, the enemy of God has infiltrated into the Church more and more very much deeply.
    Therefore I believe +Williamson is very prudent to judge on the Poem.


    Offline apollo

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #32 on: May 24, 2021, 11:29:09 PM »
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  • Vade retro Satanas.
    Pax tecuм.  Please point out ONE THEOLOGICAL ERROR in the POEM.
    .
    Or shut up.
    .
    And no, Br. Mitch Pacwa's long outdated mentally ill article will not suffice.
    Sorry, he was not speaking infallibly.
    .
    And get up to date with this issue at:

    http://drbo.org/valtorta.htm

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #33 on: May 24, 2021, 11:51:49 PM »
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  • Extremely disappointing treatment of Valtorta by Bishop Williamson:

     Another incredibly arrogant answer.  Sounds like he's morphing into Christopher West now.  Since +Williamson is so pure, he should sit down and analyze some hard-core porn, since "all is pure for the pure, right?"  What kind of nonsense is that?  And if someone finds a joke from Our Lord about St. Peter having corrupted His Mother offensive and unbecoming of the All-Pure God, then it's because it is THEIR mind that's corrupt?  Bishop Williamson needs to retire before he disgraces himself even more.  Disgusting and disgraceful ... and extremely arrogant.  I cannot mince words.
    .
    If you want to see an example of extreme arrogance far greater than Bishop Williamson,
    all you have to do is look in a mirror.
    .
    Show me the Catholic doctrine that says Jesus Christ NEVER used humor or sarcasm
    in His speech.  Or is it just your infallible opinion, pope Ladislaus.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #34 on: May 25, 2021, 12:51:23 AM »
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  • I don't think there wasn't any problem at pre-Vatican 2 Church authority, especially on imprimatur.
    For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia Vol.4(1913) which had an imprimatur by +Cardinal John Murphy Farley(Archbishop of New York) during the reign of Pope St. Pius X, describes that the Deluge of Noah was a local flood.
    It was even during the reign of St. Pius X.
    If the Churchmen who condemned the Poem were a man like +Cardinal John Farley who was created Cardinal by St. Pius X in 1911, then can there be any ABSOLUTE authority on their condemnation of the book?
    I don't believe that the time of Pius XII was much better than the time of St. Pius X, because since the outbreak of Liberalism and Modernism, the enemy of God has infiltrated into the Church more and more very much deeply.
    Therefore I believe +Williamson is very prudent to judge on the Poem.
    Hi AK,
    If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that because the men in the Holy Office might have been liberal/modernist that it is ok to ignore the condemnation. Is this correct?

    Substantial proof would seem necessary to justify that. Bishop Williamson does not even bother to attempt giving such proof in his current comments.

    Was Cardinal Ottaviani a modernist? (Pro-Secretary of the Congregation of the Holy Office (1953–1959) Secretary of the Congregation of the Holy Office (1959–1966))
    Is there evidence that Msgr. Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P were modernists?

    The passage that I cited above gives several reasons for condemnation. Are any of then in error?

    How about the main supporters of the work? Fr. Berti broke his signed promise and Pisani printed the books knowing that he was contradicting the Holy Office. Also a big promoter of the Poem was Fr. (later Cardinal) Bea.

    I have spent many hours on this subject and have yet to find anything to convince me to ignore the original condemnation. I hope what I have written is of some help to you, AK.
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago


    Offline apollo

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #35 on: May 25, 2021, 01:36:44 AM »
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  • I have spent many hours on this subject and have yet to find anything to convince me to ignore the original condemnation. I hope what I have written is of some help to you, AK.
    Then don't read it.  Let some churchmen say not to read it and let some churchmen
    say to read it.  It's best to let somebody else decide for you, especially if they are
    negative, then nobody can make fun of you like they do of Bishop Williamson.

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #36 on: May 25, 2021, 01:59:47 AM »
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  •  then nobody can make fun of you like they do of Bishop Williamson.
    Bishop Williamson has absolutely NO ONE else to blame for any Valtorta flak. He is the one constantly bringing it up.
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #37 on: May 25, 2021, 02:14:55 AM »
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  • On the Poem, to reiterate a point from an earlier thread, the Holy Office effectively repealed its 1959 censure two years later. The second edition of the Poem was approved for publication by the same Holy Office in 1961.

    "Here's the history, as Steven Austen's copious PDF docuмents. In 1948, Pope Ven. Pius XII gave a verbal approval to the book, saying, "Publish it just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand.” If someone believes Pope Pius XII was the last Pope, this approval was the last position of the Catholic Church on the matter.

    In 1959, not 56, the first edition of the book was placed on the Index, since it lacked a written Imprimatur at the time. In 1961, the Holy Office gave its approval for the second edition of the book to be published: "Required to deliver a report and some docuмentation, Fr. Berti returned four more times to the Holy Office in 1961, and was always able to deal with its Vice-Commissioner, Father Giraudo, O.P. From Fr. Giraudo he finally obtained a sentence which effectively repealed the 1959 censure on the Index. Father Giraudo stated: "We have no objection to your publishing this 2nd edition," concluding with: "We will see how the work [the Poem] is welcomed." [See pg. 14 of the PDF]. As also mentioned there, Pope Pius XII, 4 Cardinals, 14 Archbishop and 10 Regular Bishops have approved the work."

    I agree with Bishop Williamson that the Poem of the Man-God is edifying and spiritually profitable to read. There is no remaining censure on the work today and there hasn't been since 1961. Please see the PDF for more details and any questions.

    You're simply repeating the EXACT same errors that were refuted 2 months ago in this thread:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/saintly-maria-valtorta's-poem-great-spiritual-reading-for-lent-like-mcog/

    You left out the EXACT same details as you did before. The same details that sink your claims that POMG was ever removed from the Index. Anyone interested can read through the thread.

    If this is the "fruit" of POMG, you can keep it.

    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago


    Offline Andrew Kim

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #38 on: May 25, 2021, 03:46:46 AM »
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  • Hi AK,
    If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that because the men in the Holy Office might have been liberal/modernist that it is ok to ignore the condemnation. Is this correct?

    Substantial proof would seem necessary to justify that. Bishop Williamson does not even bother to attempt giving such proof in his current comments.

    Was Cardinal Ottaviani a modernist? (Pro-Secretary of the Congregation of the Holy Office (1953–1959) Secretary of the Congregation of the Holy Office (1959–1966))
    Is there evidence that Msgr. Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P were modernists?

    The passage that I cited above gives several reasons for condemnation. Are any of then in error?

    How about the main supporters of the work? Fr. Berti broke his signed promise and Pisani printed the books knowing that he was contradicting the Holy Office. Also a big promoter of the Poem was Fr. (later Cardinal) Bea.

    I have spent many hours on this subject and have yet to find anything to convince me to ignore the original condemnation. I hope what I have written is of some help to you, AK.
    Thanks for the response, Emile.
    I believe there are some misunderstandings what you mentioned.

    Second, the long speeches of Jesus and Mary starkly contrast with the evangelists, who portray Jesus as "humble, reserved; His discourses are lean, incisive." Valtorta's fictionalized history makes Jesus sound "like a chatterbox, always ready to proclaim Himself the Messiah and the Son of God," or teach theology in modern terms. The Blessed Mother speaks like a "propagandist" for modern Marian theology.
    How about the Dialogue of St Catherine of Siena?
    Didn't God the Father also talk to the saint like a chatterbox mentioned in this opinion?
    I can't understand how can people judge God as their own criterion.


    Third, "some passages are rather risque," like the "immodest" dance before Pilate (vol. 5, p. 73). There are "many historical, geographical and other blunders." For instance, Jesus uses screwdrivers (Vol. 1, pp. 195, 223), centuries before screws existed.
    The seers only can describe with their own vocabulary at the time.
    BTW, for omniscient Our Lord, is it not possible the screwdrivers to be there strictly?


    There are theological errors, as when "Jesus says" (vol. 1, p. 30) that Eve's temptation consisted in arousing her flesh, as the serpent sensuously "caressed" her. While she "began the sin by herself," she "accomplished it with her companion." Sun Myung Moon and Maria Valtorta may claim the first sin was sɛҳuąƖ, but Scripture does not.
    "And the eyes of them both were opened : and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons."(Gen 3, 7)
    Is there not any probability for the first sin as sɛҳuąƖ on this sentence?
    And,
    Quote
    The Mystical City of God, Book 1, Chapter 4.
    On these accounts his wrath was greater against Eve than against Adam. Before he showed himself to her, however, he aroused her in many disturbing thoughts or imaginations, in order to approach her in a state of excitement and pre–occupation. But because I have written this in another place, I will not enlarge here upon the violence and inhumanity of this temptation; it is enough for my purpose to mention what Scripture says: that he took the form of a serpent (Gen. 2, 1), and thus speaking to Eve drew her into a conversation, which she should not have permitted.


    Vol. 1, p. 7, oddly claims, "Mary can be called the 'second-born' of the Father . . ." Her explanation limits the meaning, avoiding evidence of an authentic heresy; but it does not take away the basic impression that she wants to construct a new mariology, which simply goes beyond the limits of propriety."
    We don't know about the mystery of Our Lady exactly.
    Our Lady's existence itself is an incomprehensible mystery, because she bore God Himself.
    No human being can understand this properly on earth.
    We hadn't even known the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption as Dogma before they were declared.
    And even St. Thomas Aquinas was not exactly precise on the Immaculate Conception, then how can we who live in this horrendous time contaminated by Modernism rightly judge something about Our Lady with good certainty?


    "Another strange and imprecise statement" made of Mary (vol. 4, p. 240) is that she will "be second to Peter with regard to ecclesiastical hierarchy. . . " Our Lady surpasses St. Peter's holiness, but she is not in the hierarchy, let alone second to St. Peter.
    When she was in the Holy Family, she was second to St. Joseph.
    Then, is it not certain that she was second to St. Peter when she was still on earth before the Assumption? : "For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church."(1Cor 14, 35)
    BTW, how can God the Son obey to a man St. Joseph?
    I believe there is a mystery of the virtue of humility on this matter.


    If there is no evidence that proves Msgr. Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P were modernists, is there evidence that proves they were not modernists?
    I don't think it is possible to distinguish whether someone is a modernist or some other is a liberal with categorical determination when there is no ABSOLUTE substantial proof because Liberalism and Modernism has prevailed too much for a long time in the Church.
    For instance, I was a liberal and a modernist when I was a Novus Ordo Catholic, but ironically I had Catholic faith though it was insufficient.
    Certainly, I have been taught true faith more exactly, clearly, and fully since I had converted to Traditional Catholic, but I never can deny that I had Catholic faith when I was a Novus Ordo as a liberal and a modernist described by papal encyclicals and docuмents.
    I was in invincible ignorance, but it doesn't mean that I was not a liberal and a modernist.
    Namely, though I was a liberal and a modernist, I had Catholic faith.
    If I made a judgment for something about faith with that insufficient faith, it must have been wrong, but it still doesn't mean that I didn't have faith.
    It is a mystery for me, but at the same time it is in reality.
    In any case, there is no evidence that proves Msgr. Giovanni Pepe and Father Berruti, O.P were modernists, but vice versa.
    However, still, if the Catholic Encyclopedia(1913) was able to be wrong, then they were also able to be wrong insofar as the Poem doesn't have any error which can be demonstrated irrefutably.

    I believe this is very difficult matter for someone who seeks the substantial proof.
    But the substantial proof is not always necessary for our faith, isn't it?
    "Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed : blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed."(John 20, 29)

    I also struggled with this problem quite much time, but finally I decided to read all volumes of the Poem with incredulity to check it.
    What I did for this matter was to entrust to the Church authority of which I was able to be convinced only.
    Then now I don't have any doubt on the Poem, and am profited from it incredibly.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #39 on: May 25, 2021, 03:51:13 AM »
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  • You're simply repeating the EXACT same errors that were refuted 2 months ago in this thread:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/saintly-maria-valtorta's-poem-great-spiritual-reading-for-lent-like-mcog/

    You left out the EXACT same details as you did before. The same details that sink your claims that POMG was ever removed from the Index. Anyone interested can read through the thread.

    If this is the "fruit" of POMG, you can keep it.
    Well said, Emile!
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline apollo

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #40 on: May 25, 2021, 05:22:09 AM »
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  • Bishop Williamson has absolutely NO ONE else to blame for any Valtorta flak. He is the one constantly bringing it up.
    .
    So ignore him, because YOU may be wrong.  What makes YOU the
    expert on Valtorta?  How many pages have you read and compared
    every line on every page to your GREAT knowledge of Catholic theology,
    which you learned at which college ???
    .
    Or did you read all the "experts" at the den of hate, called CathInfo.


    Offline cebu

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #41 on: May 25, 2021, 07:40:18 AM »
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  • God bless Apollo, Andrew Kim and others for defending the Poem. 

    It is worth a go, but some on here are driven by a demonic hatred of it. They are the kings of selective quotes (imagine what you can prove with selective quotes from Scripture) and are not interested in the truth. All their so-called arguments are refuted in this excellent work - http://www.valtorta.org.au/Defence/Maria%20Valtorta%20Summa%20%26%20Encyclopedia.pdf    However, they choose to ignore this because they have no interest in the truth and prefer the lies they propagate. 

    Incred. if you are going to be disrespectful to the Bishop, then at least get his university right.  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

    Ladi, if you are going to calumniate the Bishop, then don't depend on a sleazy report from a trashy tabloid. Shame on you and get to Confession.


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #42 on: May 25, 2021, 12:25:11 PM »
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  • "And the eyes of them both were opened : and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons."(Gen 3, 7)
    Is there not any probability for the first sin as sɛҳuąƖ on this sentence?
    .
    No. I'm not sure who originally came up with the idea that original sin was a sin of impurity. Maybe Ladislaus can help us out here, because my impression is that it was a heresy of the gnostics of the early Church.
    .
    Anyway, since the entire contents of Scripture is divine revelation and must be accepted by divine faith, to deny anything in the Bible is heretical.
    .
    With that as our solid foundation, let us read what the Bible actually says about original sin.
    .

    Quote
    And [God] said to [Adam]: And who hath told thee that thou wast naked, but that thou hast eaten of the tree whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldst not eat? And Adam said: The woman, whom thou gavest me to be my companion, gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the Lord God said to the woman: Why hast thou done this? And she answered: The serpent deceived me, and I did eat.

    .
    Given that we, as Catholics, accept every word of this as true, as I just said, I am curious why God would have said to Adam that he must have eaten of the bad tree in order to know that he was naked, if he hadn't eaten any fruit at all but had instead committed a sin of impurity? And why would Eve have said, The serpent deceived me, and I did eat, if she hadn't eaten anything, but had committed a sin of impurity? And basically the same question for Adam?
    .
    It's no wonder this poem was condemned if it distorted the words of Genesis. It deserved to be.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #43 on: May 25, 2021, 02:16:24 PM »
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  • "And the eyes of them both were opened : and when they perceived themselves to be naked, they sewed together fig leaves, and made themselves aprons."(Gen 3, 7)
    Is there not any probability for the first sin as sɛҳuąƖ on this sentence?
     

    Some, but only  about as much "probability" as me being at a baseball game simply because I'm wearing a baseball cap.

    But the larger context would show the absurdity: I'm sitting in my living room.

    A Genesis context shows  a similar absurdity of equating nakedness in Eden with pre-Fall sex IMHO.

    This reminds me of Conciliar explanations for the rejection of pro multis in favor of "for all" in the consecration of the wine:

    :laugh1:


    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Answers 4 Questions
    « Reply #44 on: May 25, 2021, 03:03:31 PM »
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  • God bless Apollo, Andrew Kim and others for defending the Poem.

    It is worth a go, but some on here are driven by a demonic hatred of it.
    I have no dog in this fight, but those who vociferously defend "the Poem" as if it were "the Holy Bible" sound like a bunch of cultists.  

    It's one reason why I try not to focus so much on private revelation, approved or not.