It is possible to have a priest with a solid Faith, who says a reverent Novus Ordo Mass. The danger in such Masses comes above all from the omissions. The idea of its being a sacrifice, devotion to the BVM etc, everything specifically Catholic. Lex orandi, lex credendi: if we stop praying as Catholics, we stop believing as Catholics. However, that doesn't mean it cannot ever be attended,

Total BS.  Your theology is as warped and deficient as the Protestant bogus ordo mess.  You need to read (or re-read) Fr Wathen’s 1971 book “The Great Sacrilege”.  You can find it free on this site and on the web.  

Meg, +Williamson’s comments are contrary to every major Trad pioneer priest of the 70s, who refused the new mass, was kicked out of their diocese into the street by their Modernist bishops, and who started saying the True Mass in “modern day catacombs” (ie garages, basements and hotel rooms).  These priests lost everything to refuse the new mass! 

Had +W been a bishop in the 70s would he have told these priests to stay in their dioceses and say the new mass “reverently”?  One wonders. 

You don’t know history and you don’t truly love Tradition because you don’t hate all that is anti-Tradition (ie every, single new mass, no matter how “reverent”).  No amount of reverence can make up for its offense to God and it’s Protestant poison. 

If you, or +W or anyone else thinks that you can save your soul going to the new mass, then you have no business being a Trad.  You must join new rome.  It’s been 50 years.  Pick a side already. 

I think it betrays a great ignorance of Bishop Williamson, and the point he is here trying to make us understand.

His "point" is obviously convoluted and unclear since he's admitted it was a mistake.  You and Meg keep defending +W's original comment yet even +W is backtracking.  ??  Is this bizarro world, or what?

I invite you for a moment to lay aside your belligerent attitude - a very necessary one these days, surrounded as we are by so many enemies of our soul - and listen to the Bishop speak again (did you actually listen to the video?), keeping in mind that the Supreme Law of the Church is the Salvation of Souls. You are at the level of principles, which you could never articulate on this matter as clearly as BW, but there is such a thing as pastoral prudence, less necessary for you than a bishop...
This post is about the Bishop admitting a mistake, and about such advice as was given being possible in private under "exceptional circuмstances". 
If you truly love truth, love Tradition, and hate what is anti-Tradition, then you will love souls and understand how Holy Mother Church is unyielding in Her principles (and who more so than BW) yet gentle with the souls of Her children.

I don't believe the new mass involves any "exceptional circuмstances", especially when the advice comes from a Traditional Bishop.  One should EXPECT to hear traditional orthodoxy from traditional bishops, wherein they would support traditional liturgies.  Except, +W gave the opposite advice.

How shocked would we be if a novus ordo priest gave advice to his faithful that they should attend the latin mass and avoid the novus ordo?  It would be shocking because it never happens.  Why?  Because the modernist/freemasonic/satanic "clerics" do not compromise.  They do not give in to the enemy, which is Tradition.  They want to destroy God's Church, at all costs, without giving an inch.  Would that all Trads act this way towards our enemies!  This is the problem.  We compromise with error.

You appeal to the pioneering priests of Tradition of the 70s. Would it be possible to find a churchman of the 70s who had the combination of authority, learning, holiness and missionary zeal of Archbishop Lefebvre?

That's an unfair question because +ABL was basically the only Trad Bishop in the 70s.  But there were MANY Trad priests who were WAY more hardline against the new mass than +ABL.  Just because he was a bishop doesn't mean his theology was better, or his application of it.

He refused to offer the New Mass. He saved Tradition for the Church. It was in large measure due to him that we have the "Ottaviani Intervention".

He HELPED to save Tradition.  But there were many, many other priests who worked independently of the sspx in the 70s to "save Tradition".  One cannot discount his leadership and efforts but he was far from the only one.  +ABL wouldn't have had any priests to ordain in the 80s if the many, many priests across the US/Europe had not started small chapels and educated the faithful on the errors of V2.  God used all these priests/laymen to build Tradition, not just +ABL and the sspx.

Yet it is also from him that we heard the advice in his spiritual conference in the 70s posted above by Sean: 

"The father of Mr Pazat who is here told me yesterday that right now, there is not a single mass of St Pius V in Madrid. If there is no more mass of St Pius V in Madrid, if one is logical with those who are strict on the question of the mass, one would have to tell all people in Madrid that they cannot put in a foot in a church, one has to be logical, one has to be logical.. Do you feel in conscience capable to tell all people in Madrid, the whole city of Madrid, all Catholics : you cannot set foot anymore in a Church ? I do not dare saying that in such an absolute manner, since there are quite a few conditions, as I will mention, quite a few circuмstances in which we cannot attend these masses....

See, here is the problem.  We don't live in the 70s anymore.  This advice is outdated.  The past is the past.  Back in the 70s, 80s, (and even 90s) many novus ordo priests were still valid priests.  But now?  99.9999999999% of novus ordo "priests" are doubtful.  Including FSSP, ICK, and any "traditional" dioceses.  +ABL's advice doesn't apply anymore.  No amount of "reverence" or even the 1962 missal can correct an invalid priest.  Everything connected to new-rome is doubtful.  But in the 70s and 80s, there was still gray area.  +W did not correct his "advice" based on current circuмstances.  

So clearly, you not only challenge Bishop Williamson, but Archbishop Lefebvre also. Would you say to Archbishop Lefebvre what you said to Meg: "You don’t know history and you don’t truly love Tradition because you don’t hate all that is anti-Tradition"? That would be a big call indeed!

If +ABL gave +W's advice today (or in 2015) I would say the same thing.  Our job as Catholics is to preach the Truth.  We are the salt of the earth.  If someone asks a Bishop, in public, about the new mass, his response should be:


"The New Mass is the rotten fruit of the heretical, freemasonic and satanic fake-council of the fake-conciliar-church.  Christ's enemies have infiltrated the Church, as Our Lady of LaSallete fortold, and the "errors of Russia" that Our Lady of Fatima warned about, have infected most of the churchmen, who are using the new mass and V2 to destroy doctrine and usher in the times of antichrist.

All Catholics who wish to save their souls should cease to attend, support and accept both V2 and the new mass, and if they do attend such a mass, they commit multiple mortal sins.  One, attendance at this protestantized, new-world order mass is a GRAVE sin against Faith.  Two, attendance at such a mass violates Quo Primum, which is a serious sin against the Church's liturgical law.  Three, attendance at such a mass is a morally grave sin due to the circuмstantially immoral atmosphere and blasphemous liturgical acts which are commonplace and integral to the false rite itself, namely - a) sacrilegious communion-in-the-hand, b) rampant immoral dress which is consistently condoned, c) rampant and encouraged irreverent, scandalous and shockingly protestant behavior (singing, dancing, hugging, talking, laughing, etc) both by the priest and laymen.  All of this is heretical nonsense.  All of this is GRAVELY sinful.  All of this is anti-catholic.

We have information for you to find the nearest Traditional Mass, the ONLY mass of the True Faith, to your location.  Please speak to me after this conference for more information."

No doubt you find here, also, the answer to your "I wonder", above. Giving such advice to abandoned souls has nothing to do with compromising on principles. The Archbishop never said the New Mass, in spite of the fantasies of some recently spreading this calumny. So why wonder about Bishop Williamson when he gives the same explanation? If you or anyone else enjoys today the privilege of assisting at the Tridentine Mass, it is thanks to the great Archbishop who gave this advice. Don't forget it! 

Advice from the 70s no longer applies 40+ years later.  We have the advantage of historical facts, better theological answers, and more importantly....WAY more access to the True Mass than back then.  If this "poor lady" can't find a True Mass today, then she isn't looking for it. 


In fact, for her to come to a "Traditional Conference" and ask such a "sob story" question about the new mass makes me think she was an infiltrator of some sort.  She didn't come for the truth, otherwise she would have asked "where can I find a Latin Mass?".  Instead she asked for "permission" to go where SHE WANTED TO GO.  She didn't love Tradition and +W should've corrected her and called her out on it. 

In a public forum, at a Traditional venue, her question was subversive.  

This describes why the novus ordo is fake. How can the intention to do what the church always did be formed  by " Blasphemous liturgical acts which are common place and integral to the false rite itself"?

 ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC. These are the four marks of the true church. They are also the four marks of the real sacraments.  The banal, on the spot concoction called the new mass doesn't have these four marks.  The five major false teachings, errors of Vatican Council II, A-Ecuмenism, B- Separation of Church and State, C - Freedom of Conscience D- Freedom of religion E - Collegiality have the four marks of the church alright- All five are condemned by the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
 Great post, Pax Vobis.
[float=left max=45%]Posted by: Pax Vobis
« on: Yesterday at 09:44:21 PM »[/float]


"The New Mass is the rotten fruit of the heretical, freemasonic and satanic fake-council of the fake-conciliar-church.  Christ's enemies have infiltrated the Church, as Our Lady of LaSallete fortold, and the "errors of Russia" that Our Lady of Fatima warned about, have infected most of the churchmen, who are using the new mass and V2 to destroy doctrine and usher in the times of antichrist.

All Catholics who wish to save their souls should cease to attend, support and accept both V2 and the new mass, and if they do attend such a mass, they commit multiple mortal sins.  One, attendance at this protestantized, new-world order mass is a GRAVE sin against Faith.  Two, attendance at such a mass violates Quo Primum, which is a serious sin against the Church's liturgical law.  Three, attendance at such a mass is a morally grave sin due to the circuмstantially immoral atmosphere and blasphemous liturgical acts which are commonplace and integral to the false rite itself, namely - a) sacrilegious communion-in-the-hand, b) rampant immoral dress which is consistently condoned, c) rampant and encouraged irreverent, scandalous and shockingly protestant behavior (singing, dancing, hugging, talking, laughing, etc) both by the priest and laymen.  All of this is heretical nonsense.  All of this is GRAVELY sinful.  All of this is anti-catholic.

Meg, +Williamson’s comments are contrary to every major Trad pioneer priest of the 70s, who refused the new mass, was kicked out of their diocese into the street by their Modernist bishops, and who started saying the True Mass in “modern day catacombs” (ie garages, basements and hotel rooms).  These priests lost everything to refuse the new mass! 

Had +W been a bishop in the 70s would he have told these priests to stay in their dioceses and say the new mass “reverently”?  One wonders. 

You don’t know history and you don’t truly love Tradition because you don’t hate all that is anti-Tradition (ie every, single new mass, no matter how “reverent”).  No amount of reverence can make up for its offense to God and it’s Protestant poison. 

If you, or +W or anyone else thinks that you can save your soul going to the new mass, then you have no business being a Trad.  You must join new rome.  It’s been 50 years.  Pick a side already.

You don't think it's possible that anyone can be confused by the present Crisis? You believe that the situation is completely black and white, with nothing in-between, for everyone? Or that all a person needs to do is to hear the truth about the Crisis, and they automatically follow Tradition from the moment they hear the truth, without ever looking back? If you believe these things, then you aren't realistic when it comes to human nature. 

I think it comes down to this question:

Is active attendance at a Mass offered using the Novus Ordo Rite in Latin an intrinsically evil act?

If one answers "Yes", then it cannot be actively attended for any reason whatsoever.

If one answer "No", then he agrees with Bishop Williamson. 

You don't think it's possible that anyone can be confused by the present Crisis?

Of course.  And that lady was obviously confused because she attended a Trad Conference but still wanted to go to the new mass.  And +W's job (and any Trad's job) is to UN-CONFUSE those who need help.  Our job is to tell those in error to "Stop what you are doing, do this instead and I will help you."  You don't let them stay in error.


Let's apply this logic to a simple moral issue.
Example - You find out a relative has an addiction to alcohol and a potential major health issue due to drinking.  The relative goes to an AA meeting and asks all those present if he should keep his job at the local pub or find a new one (where he won't be tempted).  If the AA leader tells the guy "Hey, you should keep your job but just start reading articles about the dangers of alcohol abuse.  You need to educate yourself before you make any changes.  Take your time and make a decision when you're ready." 

Wouldn't you say this advice is HORRIBLE?  Wouldn't you criticize the AA leader for not telling your relative the straight truth?  Wouldn't you be angry at the AA leader for not correcting your relative and helping him change NOW?

The correct advice is - "Hey, i'm sorry you have a health problem and I want to help you.  Alcohol is causing your problems and if you don't change, you are going to die.  You need to quit your job tomorrow, immediately, to remove yourself from that dangerous temptation.  You need to turn to God and pray and He will give you another job and then you might live through this.  If you stay in your present situation, you will die soon.  Talk to me after the meeting is over and I will help you more."

+W should have given similar advice to this lady.  Action comes before knowledge.  Hearing comes before understanding.  Faith comes before Wisdom. 

First, one must stop the evil act and the occasion of sin.  (Stop going to the new mass)
Second, one must seek truth and do good.  (Seek the True Mass)
Third, one learns and becomes.  (Eventually, through the True Mass and grace, one becomes a Traditional Catholic).

An alcoholic cannot become sober through willpower, or studying, or reading.  He must ACT - shun sin and seek salvation IMMEDIATELY.  A novus ordo catholic cannot become a Trad through conversations or debates or prayer alone.  They must ACT FIRST - by shunning the new mass and seeking Tradition IMMEDIATELY and COMPLETELY.

God will not give graces to those that compromise.

You believe that the situation is completely black and white, with nothing in-between, for everyone? Or that all a person needs to do is to hear the truth about the Crisis, and they automatically follow Tradition from the moment they hear the truth, without ever looking back? If you believe these things, then you aren't realistic when it comes to human nature.

This lady knew enough about Tradition and +W to come to a conference.  She knew enough to mention a "reverent new mass" (vs an irreverent one).  She knew enough to hear the "plain and simple truth" - that is, the new mass is the 'great sacrilege' of our times and it is not catholic and you should not go, ever again, if you want to save your soul.


Meg, you need to read or re-read Fr Wathen's book (The Great Sacrilege).  You need to remind yourself how offensive, evil and immoral this fake-rite truly is.  You've lost touch with the roots of Traditionalism and how pure, holy and sacred the True Mass is.  You need to remind yourself that as God rejected Cain's offering because it was not "his best", so God rejects the new mass because (on it's best day) it is liturgically bland, doctrinally deficient and theologically lukewarm. 

On it's worst day, the new mass is an abominable, blasphemous offense against all that is holy and catholic.

Scripture tells us in Apocalypse ch 3...
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot. I would thou wert cold or hot. 16But because thou art lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

We must reject error totally and completely.  We must love truth totally and completely.  If we do not, we are lukewarm.

20Behold, I stand at the gate and knock. If any man shall hear my voice and open to me the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him: and he with me. 21To him that shall overcome, I will give to sit with me in my throne: as I also have overcome and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

When Christ knocks on the door of our heart, with His Truth, we must open that door at once.  If we delay, He may not knock again.  When we find the "pearl of great price" we go IMMEDIATELY and sell all that we have, and buy it.

If our neighbor asks for the Truth, we must "let him hear what the Spirit saith".  That is, we must preach the PLAIN and WHOLE TRUTH, as it comes from the Holy Ghost.  No sugar-coating it, no delays, no compromise.

Of course.  And that lady was obviously confused because she attended a Trad Conference but still wanted to go to the new mass.  And +W's job (and any Trad's job) is to UN-CONFUSE those who need help.  Our job is to tell those in error to "Stop what you are doing, do this instead and I will help you."  You don't let them stay in error.

In your vast experience (which you obviously have), is it always the case that a person seeking the Truth is always going to understand it by using only words to explain the situation?

If that's the case, then maybe the Prots are right. One only needs to read the Bible in order to understand Truth. Words, in and of themselves, are sufficient to make Truth understandable. Nothing else required.