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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015  (Read 9243 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Listen from 37:50 to 45:00

Thanks to MarcelJude for posting this interview with Bishop Williamson on a recent thread. Because of the length of the video, I am sure there would be many who did not hear the Bishop address this very important question. I thought this topic of sufficient importance to justify re-posting this video. 

Bishop Williamson's comments on NOM attendance at the conference in June 2015 raised eyebrows throughout the Resistance, and no doubt triggered a snigger or two within the ranks of the SSPX. I admit that if I had been in the 'Fellay camp' at the time, I would have felt a certain amount of renewed self-justification and contempt for the 'so-called Resistance'. 

Every Resistance priest that I know said at the time 'Bishop Williamson is wrong'. It precipitated the split in the Resistance with Fathers Pfeiffer and Hewko launching at outrageous attack, which betrayed a lack of respect and good will, being joined by Greg Taylor of The Recusant. Fr Chazal told us that he saw BW soon after the event and the Bishop asked him if he should apologise. Father told us that he told the Bishop "No, it's not for the General to humiliate himself, leave the damage control to the foot soldiers". I was very disappointed when I heard that, because I think that a clarification at the time could have easily resolved the issue and reassured many priests and faithful.

The important points that I take from this interview are:
1. There has been no change in principle.
2. This is primarily a pastoral question, not a dogmatic one.
3. It is absolutely untrue to make the statement that "Bishop Williamson encourages attendance at the NOM". Rather, he would give permission in private, under very exceptional circuмstances (certainty of valid priest and sacrament, a reverent priest who has the Faith, a reverent Mass), to particular individuals (isolated from the true Mass, feel a great need to be strengthened by the Holy Eucharist, for whom it would not be a danger to their faith...)
4. BW admits that what he said in public should have been said in private, as he says the Archbishop did on at least two such occasions that he can recall.
5. BW says he would give this advice even more today, than ABL did, as the situation in the Church is so much worse.

For me, it is this last point which he makes that I still find altogether unsatisfactory, for two reasons: If the Church is in so much more chaos today than it was in the 70s and 80s, as he says, then isn't it almost impossible today to be certain of the ordination of any given priest? The doubt over the validity of the Holy Orders has been compounded by the multiplication of doubtful consecrations and ordinations over a period of fifty years. And then there is the issue of finding a true Mass. I would have thought that it was much harder to find one in those early years after the Council. Today, I would have thought, the Latin Mass is more widespread than it was then. I am sure that if these points were made to the Bishop, we would receive fully Catholic answers that do not pose any threat to the Faith or the Resistance. And this is where Fr Pfeiffer and Fr Hewko erred... but now we know, there was another agenda...









Offline trento

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Every Resistance priest that I know said at the time 'Bishop Williamson is wrong'. It precipitated the split in the Resistance with Fathers Pfeiffer and Hewko launching at outrageous attack, which betrayed a lack of respect and good will, being joined by Greg Taylor of The Recusant. Fr Chazal told us that he saw BW soon after the event and the Bishop asked him if he should apologise. Father told us that he told the Bishop "No, it's not for the General to humiliate himself, leave the damage control to the foot soldiers". I was very disappointed when I heard that, because I think that a clarification at the time could have easily resolved the issue and reassured many priests and faithful.

Unfortunately I did not hear the so-called foot soldiers clarifying anything publicly. Perhaps they did privately, who knows.


Quote
The important points that I take from this interview are:
1. There has been no change in principle.
2. This is primarily a pastoral question, not a dogmatic one.
3. It is absolutely untrue to make the statement that "Bishop Williamson encourages attendance at the NOM". Rather, he would give permission in private, under very exceptional circuмstances (certainty of valid priest and sacrament, a reverent priest who has the Faith, a reverent Mass), to particular individuals (isolated from the true Mass, feel a great need to be strengthened by the Holy Eucharist, for whom it would not be a danger to their faith...)
4. BW admits that what he said in public should have been said in private, as he says the Archbishop did on at least two such occasions that he can recall.
5. BW says he would give this advice even more today, than ABL did, as the situation in the Church is so much worse.

For me, it is this last point which he makes that I still find altogether unsatisfactory, for two reasons: If the Church is in so much more chaos today than it was in the 70s and 80s, as he says, then isn't it almost impossible today to be certain of the ordination of any given priest? The doubt over the validity of the Holy Orders has been compounded by the multiplication of doubtful consecrations and ordinations over a period of fifty years. And then there is the issue of finding a true Mass. I would have thought that it was much harder to find one in those early years after the Council. Today, I would have thought, the Latin Mass is more widespread than it was then. I am sure that if these points were made to the Bishop, we would receive fully Catholic answers that do not pose any threat to the Faith or the Resistance. And this is where Fr Pfeiffer and Fr Hewko erred... but now we know, there was another agenda...


In the Christian Warfare book under the Examination of Conscience section, attendance at the NOM is considered sinful. Obviously souls that are ignorant of the NOM's protestantized dangers have no culpability, but the same can't be said for souls frequenting traditional chapels since the dangers of the NOM are frequently mentioned in SSPX literature. Therefore, I don't understand how BW can still "give permission".

#3 is problematic. How can the NOM be called a reverent Mass?

#4 - unfortunately we don't have the Archbishop with us to clarify this claim. Without any evidence, BW is probably mistaken.

#5 - the advice of SSPX priests where there are no TLMs available on Sundays and days of obligations is to stay at home and pray your Rosary and follow the prayers of the missal to sanctify the Lord's Day, rather than saying it is probably ok to go to the NOM, no matter how "reverent" it may look. I've never heard anything else from Society priests.


Offline SeanJohnson

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Unfortunately I did not hear the so-called foot soldiers clarifying anything publicly. Perhaps they did privately, who knows.

Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged in 1980-1981 that Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending the Novus Ordo, while simultaneously stipulating none could be forced to do so.  Shall I consider him guilty of promoting the new Mass?



In the Christian Warfare book under the Examination of Conscience section, attendance at the NOM is considered sinful.

False.  The old/original edition made that claim, but the new version eliminated that claim.  The neo-SSPX evidently no longer believes this.


Obviously souls that are ignorant of the NOM's protestantized dangers have no culpability, but the same can't be said for souls frequenting traditional chapels since the dangers of the NOM are frequently mentioned in SSPX literature.
 
You mean like the lady at the 2015 Mahopac conference (who mostly attended a daily Novus Ordo, and an insult Mass on the weekends, and was only at the +Williamson conference because a relation was being confirmed)?


Therefore, I don't understand how BW can still "give permission".

Can you cite a single example of Williamson giving such "permission" to a trad?


#3 is problematic. How can the NOM be called a reverent Mass?

Archbishop Lefebvre, while acknowledging all Novus Ordo Masses defective, himself distinguished between sacrilegious and reverent NOMs.

But perhaps your inquiry would be better directed toward +Fellay, who in Rome told Cardinal Canizarez’s Secretary that had Lefebvre seen the reverent Mass Fellay had just witnessed, he never would have done what he did?


#4 - unfortunately we don't have the Archbishop with us to clarify this claim. Without any evidence, BW is probably mistaken.

Sorry, but to call into question the statements of a man with such a manifest reputation for honesty is scarcely credible.  We’re his honesty not impeccable, he need not have caused himself this trouble attempting to explain the matter to wrongly scandalized souls.


#5 - the advice of SSPX priests where there are no TLMs

Noted: The SSPX says attending indult Masses is acceptable…


…available on Sundays and days of obligations is to stay at home and pray your Rosary and follow the prayers of the missal to sanctify the Lord's Day, rather than saying it is probably ok to go to the NOM, no matter how "reverent" it may look. I've never heard anything else from Society priests.

To pretend Williamson directs trads to attend Novus Ordo Masses on Sunday and Holy Days  where there are not TLMs available is libelous.  Williamson never said that. But as regards reverent NOMs, I would redirect your attention to the comment of Fellay to Cardinal Canizares' secretary above.

Comments in red^^^
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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"Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged in 1980-1981 that Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending the Novus Ordo, while simultaneously stipulating none could be forced to do so."

Complete and total confusion.

Offline SeanJohnson

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"Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged in 1980-1981 that Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending the Novus Ordo, while simultaneously stipulating none could be forced to do so."

Complete and total confusion.

What part confuses you?  The Archbishop's position itself, you mean (i.e., You find it inherently contradictory and inconsistent)?
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Nothing in the statement confuses me.  I understand the fallacy completely.

Offline SeanJohnson

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Nothing in the statement confuses me.  I understand the fallacy completely.

What fallacy are you speaking of?
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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Read it again, Sean.  I'm sure you'll get it.


Offline SeanJohnson

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Read it again, Sean.  I'm sure you'll get it.

OK, you can back out.
Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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:jester:

Seriously, Sean.  I have faith in your abilities.  Read it again.  I'm sure you can figure it out.  You can do it bud!!

Offline SeanJohnson

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  • :jester:

    Seriously, Sean.  I have faith in your abilities.  Read it again.  I'm sure you can figure it out.  You can do it bud!!

    :facepalm:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • :sleep:

    Offline WorldsAway

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  • What part confuses you?  The Archbishop's position itself, you mean (i.e., You find it inherently contradictory and inconsistent)?
    If the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled by attending the NO mass, would not Catholics be "forced to do so" by the first Precept of the Church, assuming the NO is the only mass available to them?
    If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you [John 15:19]

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • If the Sunday obligation can be fulfilled by attending the NO mass, would not Catholics be "forced to do so" by the first Precept of the Church, assuming the NO is the only mass available to them?

    No.

    The first precept is predicated upon the Commandment to "keep holy the Lord's day."

    If fulfilling the precept does not satisfy the Commandment (i.e., does not keep holy the Lord's day), it cannot be obligatory.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • "Archbishop Lefebvre acknowledged in 1980-1981 that Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending the Novus Ordo, while simultaneously stipulating none could be forced to do so."

    Complete and total confusion.

    Yeah, and in the early 1980s, he was also begging Rome to be allowed to make "the experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon.  That is the same era from which the neo-SSPX pluck quotes from +Lefebvre about wanting a practical arrangement with Rome, etc.  It's well docuмented that in the early 1980s +Lefebvre became extremely conciliatory toward the Conciliarists, having been hopefuly after the election of Wojtyla and some bizarre reputation the latter had for being some kind of "conservative".  By 1986, leading up to Assisi, +Lefebvre was saying that he might be forced to come out openly as a sedevacantist.

    Cherry-picking +Lefevre quotes from the early 1980s is not helpful or honest ... and can backfire on The Resistance because that's precisely where neo-SSPX get their ammunition from as well.