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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015  (Read 9241 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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    Do the Lutherans and Anglicans still say the Creed? Do they really believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church? Do they honor Our Lady? How many Anglican and Lutheran churches pray the Rosary? I don't think that they do, but maybe you know better than I do in that regard. 
    Many Lutherans and Anglicans still have a priesthood.  They still have communion rails and stained glass windows in their churches.  They still dress respectfully, still believe in baptism, still believe that Christ started a Church.  ...but none of this matters, because they're still heretics.

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    You believe that there isn't any difference between Prot Sunday services and the new mass. I disagree.
    There's a big difference.  But the important similarity is that they're both heretical services. 


    Arguing about "degrees" of heresy (or "degree" of catholicism) is pointless.


    Offline Meg

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  • Again, one can be 95% catholic, yet if they deny 1 dogma, they are a heretic.

    Your whole point about "still having catholic elements" is meaningless. 

    The point is, is that there are still enough Catholic elements in the conciliar church to conclude that the Catholic Church has not defected. The Lutherans and Anglicans have nothing to do with the True Church. But the conciliar church does. Even though the Church is currently occupied by Modernists. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    The point is, is that there are still enough Catholic elements in the conciliar church to conclude that the Catholic Church has not defected.
    Do you actually deny that the V2 church is heretical?

    Offline Soubirous

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  • No doubt I'll get a lot of flack for this, but here's an example of how the conciliar church still has Catholic elements, elements that the Anglicans and Lutherans don't have. I occasionally check the bulletins of the local conciliar churches, to see if by chance they will ever have a TLM anywhere near me. They never do, but I'm still hopeful, since right now I stay home on Sundays due to not having any TLM anywhere near here.

    Anyway, I was surprised to see that the local conciliar diocese hosted a prayer for Fatima a few weeks ago. I had no interest in attending of course, but I glad to see that there is still a devotion to Fatima and Our Lady, even though there were some goofy elements in that Fatima Rosary event (like the idiotic Divine Mercy devotion). I'm a little shocked that the local conciliar bishop (Bp. Tyson) allowed such a thing, since he seems to be a liberal. I'm only including a link to show that there still are Catholic elements in the conciliar church. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone attend it.

    I strongly doubt that the Anglicans or Lutherans would ever hold a Fatima Rosary event.

    Yakima Diocese Hosts 5th Worldwide Rosary Feb. 20, 2023 - Diocese of Yakima

    Not flack, just a point of information: The Blue Army Shrine in New Jersey is a fully NOM setup. From May to October, they have HUGE events on the 13th of each month with guest bishops and other high-profile clergy officiating. It's not a scene that ever interested me, it's just something that turned up on old internet search. They used to have one TLM low mass weekly on Thursdays at noon, but that disappeared from their calendar, I know neither when nor why. 

    The NOM crowd is totally into Fatima, as they also are into lots of other devotions both popular and more obscure, especially at the larger and more ethnically attended parishes. Yet they rank the DM Faustina stuff on par with Fatima. The liberal bishops don't mind because it keeps this contingent loyal and showing up for novenas, etc., otherwise some of them would go over to the Pentecostals instead.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Meg

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  • Not flack, just a point of information: The Blue Army Shrine in New Jersey is a fully NOM setup. From May to October, they have HUGE events on the 13th of each month with guest bishops and other high-profile clergy officiating. It's not a scene that ever interested me, it's just something that turned up on old internet search. They used to have one TLM low mass weekly on Thursdays at noon, but that disappeared from their calendar, I know neither when nor why.

    The NOM crowd is totally into Fatima, as they also are into lots of other devotions both popular and more obscure, especially at the larger and more ethnically attended parishes. Yet they rank the DM Faustina stuff on par with Fatima. The liberal bishops don't mind because it keeps this contingent loyal and showing up for novenas, etc., otherwise some of them would go over to the Pentecostals instead.

    Yes, they tend to mix error and proper Catholic elements. That's why it's best to avoid them. But that's not to say that there are not true Catholic elements. Or that it's not ever possible that the Church can right herself someday, and return to Tradition. It is possible, though unlikely, humanly speaking. I still have hope, however unrealistic that seems. 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • Anyway, I was surprised to see that the local conciliar diocese hosted a prayer for Fatima a few weeks ago. I had no interest in attending of course, but I glad to see that there is still a devotion to Fatima and Our Lady, even though there were some goofy elements in that Fatima Rosary event (like the idiotic Divine Mercy devotion). I'm a little shocked that the local conciliar bishop (Bp. Tyson) allowed such a thing, since he seems to be a liberal. I'm only including a link to show that there still are Catholic elements in the conciliar church. I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone attend it.

    While a rosary event and Fatima are obviously good, it's a pious exercise - crippled by the Mercy devotion - and has little to do with the mother-of-all-issues, the destruction of Catholic Dogma.  Catholic Doctrine has been absolutely obliterated by the Novus Ordo Missae.  With it's New Theology, New Priesthood, New Sacraments, New Vestments, New Modernist Heresy Spew, letting the few believers left say a crippled rosary is just what the apostates want - they recognize it hardly poses any threat.

    Offline Meg

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  • While a rosary event and Fatima are obviously good, it's a pious exercise - crippled by the Mercy devotion - and has little to do with the mother-of-all-issues, the destruction of Catholic Dogma.  Catholic Doctrine has been absolutely obliterated by the Novus Ordo Missae.  With it's New Theology, New Priesthood, New Sacraments, New Vestments, New Modernist Heresy Spew, letting the few believers left say a crippled rosary is just what the apostates want - they recognize it hardly poses any threat.

    I don't agree that doctrine is absolutely obliterated. It's just very minimal. New theology mixed with some old theology. Truth mixed with error. But not complete error. That's how Modernism seems to work. If doctrine is completely obliterated, then it would be true that the Church has defected. But it hasn't. Not yet anyway.

    You're right, I think, that they don't believe that the crippled Rosary poses any threat to the Modernist error. But whenever the rosary is said properly and with TRUE reverence and devotion, then sanctity follows, however minimal that may be.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    Yes, they tend to mix error and proper Catholic elements.
    That's called heresy.

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    That's why it's best to avoid them. But that's not to say that there are not true Catholic elements.
    Not 100% catholic = heresy.

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    Or that it's not ever possible that the Church can right herself someday, and return to Tradition.
    If the V2 church has to "return to Tradition" that means it's heretical.


    Offline Meg

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  • That's called heresy.
    Not 100% catholic = heresy.
    If the V2 church has to "return to Tradition" that means it's heretical.

    Heresy mixed with truth. That's how Modernism works. And ambiguity.

    See, the SV's don't generally like to talk about the specific heresy of Modernism. They just call it heresy and that's that. End of story. But Modernism is a strange kettle of fish, because it can sometimes give a semblance of truth. It seems to be different than, say, Arianism or semi-Arian heresy. A council was called in order to define and condemn Arianism, but that's not yet happened with Modernism. I don't know why Pius X didn't call a council for this purpose, maybe because Modernism was too entrenched by then - I don't know. Maybe God wanted to punish lukewarm Catholics by taking away the True Mass. Or something like that.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • :facepalm: Meg… Pope St Pius X called Modnernism the “synthesis of all heresies”.  It’s totally WORSE than Arianism.  Is this actually news to you?

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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  • See, the SV's don't generally like to talk about the specific heresy of Modernism.

    :laugh1: Clearly you don't know or interact with SVs in the real world.  SVs are far more given to not only talking about Modernism, but also drawing the obvious conclusions with respect to the canonical consequences of Modernism.  It is the non-SVs who endlessly refuse to call a Modernist spade a spade, ramifications and all.  That is WHY SVs are SVs instead of just Trads who see endless Modernism that has no real canonical consequences.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Donachie

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  • In "Tahafut Al-Tahafut" Averroes says that the "material intellect", or the five senses put to good use, will collect information, compose facts and observations, and can think a multitude of things, even a numeric "infinity", or numberless flood, but resolve them in one single "intelligible", and that it (or the operation of it) is then able to judge things, or even "these things", in a universal judgment, based on an appropriate sign, and that that which forms this level of intellect is absolutely immaterial ..." etc.

    So this "intelligible" sign that operates at a formal and universal level of existence is more important than material experience itself. It reminds one of Constantine at the Milvian Bridge, "in hoc signo vinces" ...

    Since the traditional mass fits the sign of the cross and the history of the world better, and there are still 14 stations of the cross, one may memorize the traditional Latin mass in conformity with the stations of the cross, dividing it into 14 parts, with the Nicene Credo being #7 and the Offertory #8. The Pater Noster, an important part, will fall in at #11. Even if people find the memory part difficult, just the relation of the traditional mass with the way of the cross will help.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • It seems that you are incorrect, as I find +Williamson using the same principle way back in 1996 (and basing it on +Lefebvre himself):

    Q: But does not Michael Davies say that attending the Novus Ordo Mass fulfils one’s Sunday duty? And that Archbishop Lefebvre said the same thing?
    A: When Michael Davies says it, it is because he claims that the officially promulgated Novus Ordo Mass cannot be intrinsically evil, otherwise the Catholic Church would be defectible.

    When Archbishop Lefebvre said it, he meant that the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively and intrinsically evil, but Catholics unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation, may subjectively fulfil their Sunday duty by attending the new Mass. The third Commandment says, thou shalt keep the Sabbath holy, not, thou shalt attend a semi-Protestant Mass.”
    (Bishop Williamson, Letters of the Rector of St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, December 1, 1996)”

    1) Can you explain how +Williamson’s Mahopac advice to the ignorant conciliar woman was any different than the application of Lefebvre’s principle above?

    2) Can you explain how Lefebvre can say one can fulfill their Sunday obligation by committing -as you claim- an intrinsically evil moral act? 

    Clearly, the Williamson of 2015-2023 is the same as that of 1996 (and the same as Lefebvre).

    PS: I’ll let you flounder with #2 for a couple hours, before explaining and resolving your confusion, since this seems to be your foundational error.

    The objective elements constitute the matter and the subjective elements constitute the form.  An act that is always illicit (as stated by the Bishop Williamson of old regarding active attendance at the New Mass) is always evil (matter).  However, the one performing the act is not always committing a sin (form).  Evil and sin are related but not synonymous.  I am speaking about the "evil" of active attendance and not of the "sinfulness" of active attendance.