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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015  (Read 18408 times)

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Offline Meg

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  • Meg, if you want to be like the Joos and Roman pagans, and crucify Christ again, then attend the new mass, where Christ is blasphemed, mocked, etc.  Or make allowances where others can go. 

    If you want to be like Our Lady, and St John, and the others at the foot of Calvary, then we don't take part in the sacrilege of the new mass, but we pray (and educate) those to stop hurting Our Lord and we console Him by attending the True Mass. 

    The english martyrs didn't go to the anglican heretical rite and they CERTAINLY wouldn't go to the new mass (which is far, far worse).

    You do not speak for all of Tradition. No matter how much you may believe that you do. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • The new mass isn't Traditional.  Whoever apologizes for it, also isn't acting Traditional.  We cannot give the "pinch of incense" to false gods (i.e. V2 church)!  We cannot compromise the Faith (or the Mass)!

    Scripture tells us that Almighty God is "jealous" for us.  The 1st commandment tells us to avoid "strange gods".  The new mass is a "strange/foreign" liturgy; it is NOT True Catholicism and NOT part of the Traditional movement.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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  • Compare Bishop Williamson's words today regarding the New Mass vs. what he said in the following audio.  He has changed his public position.  Furthermore, with what he states in the audio, I cannot see how he could even privately permit one to attend the New Mass under any circuмstances. 


    Good point, CK, Bishop Williamson says here that even if the NOM is valid, it is illicit, and then he gives the analogy of a Satanic Mass and says one may no more attend the NOM than attend a Satanic Mass. That sort of very strong language was the typical general advice given by the SSPX of old, and the sort of advice that should be given publicly, even if one does not have to be very clever to understand that there is in fact a very big difference between a Satanic Mass and many a NOM, not least of which is the intention of any true priest in good faith who offers it. So it was very heartening to hear the clarification from BW in the OP that if he were going to give contrary advice to a particular soul, in exceptional circuмstances, it is something that should be done in private. The other analogy he used in the video you posted to explain valid and licit, that of jumping the fence to steal an apple to eat being valid but not licit: well, in cases of extreme need/starvation, such an action in moral theology is also licit. As BW said in the OP, there has been no change in principle, but he admitted the mistake of giving the advice in the manner that he did. 

    Offline Catholic Knight

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  • Good point, CK, Bishop Williamson says here that even if the NOM is valid, it is illicit, and then he gives the analogy of a Satanic Mass and says one may no more attend the NOM than attend a Satanic Mass. That sort of very strong language was the typical general advice given by the SSPX of old, and the sort of advice that should be given publicly, even if one does not have to be very clever to understand that there is in fact a very big difference between a Satanic Mass and many a NOM, not least of which is the intention of any true priest in good faith who offers it. So it was very heartening to hear the clarification from BW in the OP that if he were going to give contrary advice to a particular soul, in exceptional circuмstances, it is something that should be done in private. The other analogy he used in the video you posted to explain valid and licit, that of jumping the fence to steal an apple to eat being valid but not licit: well, in cases of extreme need/starvation, such an action in moral theology is also licit. As BW said in the OP, there has been no change in principle, but he admitted the mistake of giving the advice in the manner that he did.
    You are not correct.  There was a change in principle, at least publicly, on Bishop Williamson's part.  He said in that audio that the New Mass is always illicit and that it is intrinsically evil.  Therefore, there can be no circuмstances whatsoever that can justify attending it. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • Good point, CK, Bishop Williamson says here that even if the NOM is valid, it is illicit, and then he gives the analogy of a Satanic Mass and says one may no more attend the NOM than attend a Satanic Mass. That sort of very strong language was the typical general advice given by the SSPX of old, and the sort of advice that should be given publicly, even if one does not have to be very clever to understand that there is in fact a very big difference between a Satanic Mass and many a NOM, not least of which is the intention of any true priest in good faith who offers it. So it was very heartening to hear the clarification from BW in the OP that if he were going to give contrary advice to a particular soul, in exceptional circuмstances, it is something that should be done in private. The other analogy he used in the video you posted to explain valid and licit, that of jumping the fence to steal an apple to eat being valid but not licit: well, in cases of extreme need/starvation, such an action in moral theology is also licit. As BW said in the OP, there has been no change in principle, but he admitted the mistake of giving the advice in the manner that he did.
    I respect your posting style PV (especially noted in your posts in the Validity of NO thread), but it seems dangerous to equate a Satanic Mass with a mass (supposedly) promulgated by Holy Mother Church. 

    If a true and holy priest can change a NO mass into a good and holy mass, could a true and holy priest change a Satanic Mass back into a good and holy Mass? Intention is all that is needed?  And if so, how would anyone know what the priest's intention was?


    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • You are not correct.  There was a change in principle, at least publicly, on Bishop Williamson's part.  He said in that audio that the New Mass is always illicit and that it is intrinsically evil.  Therefore, there can be no circuмstances whatsoever that can justify attending it.

    It seems that you are incorrect, as I find +Williamson using the same principle way back in 1996 (and basing it on +Lefebvre himself):

    Q: But does not Michael Davies say that attending the Novus Ordo Mass fulfils one’s Sunday duty? And that Archbishop Lefebvre said the same thing?
    A: When Michael Davies says it, it is because he claims that the officially promulgated Novus Ordo Mass cannot be intrinsically evil, otherwise the Catholic Church would be defectible.

    When Archbishop Lefebvre said it, he meant that the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively and intrinsically evil, but Catholics unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation, may subjectively fulfil their Sunday duty by attending the new Mass. The third Commandment says, thou shalt keep the Sabbath holy, not, thou shalt attend a semi-Protestant Mass.”
    (Bishop Williamson, Letters of the Rector of St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, December 1, 1996)”

    1) Can you explain how +Williamson’s Mahopac advice to the ignorant conciliar woman was any different than the application of Lefebvre’s principle above?

    2) Can you explain how Lefebvre can say one can fulfill their Sunday obligation by committing -as you claim- an intrinsically evil moral act? 

    Clearly, the Williamson of 2015-2023 is the same as that of 1996 (and the same as Lefebvre).

    PS: I’ll let you flounder with #2 for a couple hours, before explaining and resolving your confusion, since this seems to be your foundational error.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • A: When Michael Davies says it, it is because he claims that the officially promulgated Novus Ordo Mass cannot be intrinsically evil, otherwise the Catholic Church would be defectible.

    When Archbishop Lefebvre said it, he meant that the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively and intrinsically evil, but... because of the rite’s official promulgation,...

    How is it possible that the Catholic Church can officially promulgate, and force upon the faithful, anything that is both objectively and intrinsically evil?

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • How is it possible that the Catholic Church can officially promulgate, and force upon the faithful, anything that is both objectively and intrinsically evil?

    This entire docuмent is pertinent, but especially pp. 15-17:  https://sspxpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Episode36-37.pdf 
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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  • § No unity. There is no unity of government, consisting in submission to a
    common authority acknowledged by all.

    Ha ha.  Nice one.  If placing a photograph in the vestibule is enough, well, that's a strong argument indeed.

    The innumerable sedevacatist sects, all fighting against each other, furnish proof of this.

    You were SSPX but now you're Resistance carrying on the 'true fight of +Lefebvre'.  No sect division there.

    The Church is no longer spread throughout the whole
    world with an abundance of members. She is reduced to a handful.


    Isn't that what the Great Apostasy is all about???

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • It seems that you are incorrect, as I find +Williamson using the same principle way back in 1996 (and basing it on +Lefebvre himself):

    Q: But does not Michael Davies say that attending the Novus Ordo Mass fulfils one’s Sunday duty? And that Archbishop Lefebvre said the same thing?
    A: When Michael Davies says it, it is because he claims that the officially promulgated Novus Ordo Mass cannot be intrinsically evil, otherwise the Catholic Church would be defectible.

    When Archbishop Lefebvre said it, he meant that the Novus Ordo Mass is objectively and intrinsically evil, but Catholics unaware of, or disbelieving in, that evil, because of the rite’s official promulgation, may subjectively fulfil their Sunday duty by attending the new Mass. The third Commandment says, thou shalt keep the Sabbath holy, not, thou shalt attend a semi-Protestant Mass.”
    (Bishop Williamson, Letters of the Rector of St. Thomas Aquinas Seminary, December 1, 1996)”

    1) Can you explain how +Williamson’s Mahopac advice to the ignorant conciliar woman was any different than the application of Lefebvre’s principle above?

    2) Can you explain how Lefebvre can say one can fulfill their Sunday obligation by committing -as you claim- an intrinsically evil moral act? 

    Clearly, the Williamson of 2015-2023 is the same as that of 1996 (and the same as Lefebvre).

    PS: I’ll let you flounder with #2 for a couple hours, before explaining and resolving your confusion, since this seems to be your foundational error.

    Since #1 is self-evident, I'll address #2:

    Obviously, the precept of the Church is predicated upon the Commandment "Thou shalt keep holy the Lord's day."

    The Church teaches this commandment is minimally satisfied by attending Mass, and consequently, if one has attended Mass, one has sufficiently kept holy the Lord's day (notwithstanding extraneous sins outside the scope of this discussion).

    Consequently, were it true that ATTENDING the new Mass was an intrinsically evil/immoral act, it could in nowise be excused or permitted, regardless of circuмstances, and consequently, one could not fulfill the precept by attending the new Mass, for any reason.

    The sedevacantist says this simply shows the confusion, error, or inconsistency of Lefebvre.

    The Hewkonian/Pfeifferite looks past Lefebvre, but attributes the same to Williamson.

    I say otherwise (to both):

    The word "intrinsic" is inherently ambiguous, as it exists in multiple senses (both of which touch upon different aspects of this question):

    1) There are intrnisically evil human acts (e.g., abortion; sodomy; etc.).

    2) There are intrinsically evil things in the scholastic/philosophical sense of evil as a deprivation of a good integral to its nature (e.g., a one-legged man; a two-legged chair; a rite of Mass without a proper offertory or reference to a acrificial priesthood; etc.).

    The error inspiring opposition to +Williamson (and unwittingly to +Lefebvre, per the quote above), is the conflation of the two senses of "intrinsic," and improperly considering the former instead of the latter.

    The SSPX, +Lefebvre, and +Williamson have always referred to the new Mass as intrinsically evil in this latter, philosophical sense (i.e., intrinsically evil as a deprivation of a good integral to the nature of a thing).

    Were it not so, +Lefebvre could not say that the ignorant (or those in necessity, per his cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ analogy) can fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending it, since this would be tantamount to him saying that one can keep holy the Lord's day by commiting an intrinsically evil human act (i.e., a sin), which is preposterous.

    Going back to Mahopac, we find +Williamson applying the same principle.

    The problem seems to be that the simple faithful, not understanding the distinction between species of "intrinsic evil," rallied to defend a principle Lefebvre and Williamson never held (and scandalized upon learning this, as a result of many years of poor formation, choose to rally around their error, rather than correcting it).  That it was foreseeable such would happen is why I say Williamson was guilty of a minor imprudence.

    But the fact of the matter is that both Lefebvre and Williamson are perfectly correct, and if the Hewkonian/Pfeifferites fanned the flames of ignorance and sectarian partisanship to get (and keep) their movements going, the fault lies with the latter, and not the fformer.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • A person who knowingly attends a “mass” with a deficient offertory, canon and scandalous communion service is against canon law, which is a grave sin.  One does not, and cannot fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending a publicly illicit mass.  

    Ergo, the whole debate over (what does “implicitly evil” mean?) is irrelevant.  No Trad cleric has the power or jurisdiction to defer canon law penalties.  

    Catholic Common sense tells us that we should avoid “implicitly evil” or even “scandalous” religious services.  The advice to water-down these principles is a lukewarm reaction to the hostile and evil V2 cabal.  

    Many in the sspx (+ABL original, current resistance and Fellay-versions) are so scared of the idea of sedevacantism that they swing erroneously towards V2.    


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Quote
    When Michael Davies says it, it is because he claims that the officially promulgated Novus Ordo Mass cannot be intrinsically evil, otherwise the Catholic Church would be defectible.

    And Michael Davies was absolutely correct on this point, in terms of the MAJOR.  His problem was in begging the question that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church and Montini a legitimate Catholic pope, and using that to "prove" the Minor.

    MAJOR:  Catholic Church would be defectible if it could promulgate an intrinsically evil rite of Mass.
    MINOR (1):  Novus Ordo Mass is intrinsically evil.
    MINOR (2):  Conciliar Church and Montini promulgated the NOM.
    CONCLUSION:  Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church and Montini not a legitimate pope.

    We have the ABS ("Anything but Sedevantism") crowd holding it to be dogmatically certain that the CONCLUSION cannot be true.  So they variously deny the MAJOR, or else MINOR (1), or else MINOR (2) [playing word games with "promulgate"] ... ANYTHING but entertain the possibility that the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church and Montini was not a pope.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • And Michael Davies was absolutely correct on this point.  His problem was in begging the question that the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church and Montini a legitimate Catholic pope.

    Sed contra: https://sspxpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Episode36-37.pdf

    See especially pp. 14-17.

    Entire docuмent is attached (you must be logged in to see).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Sed contra: https://sspxpodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Episode36-37.pdf

    See especially pp. 14-17.

    Entire docuмent is attached (you must be logged in to see).

    Non-Catholic garbage.  It's astonishing to me how many so-called R&R have lost the Catholic and have embraced repackaged Old Catholicism.

    Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR that the Papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit and incapable of foisting such evil upon the faithful.  Unfortunately, of those who claim to be his heirs and his followers, many of them openly deny this basic Catholic truth, without which there is no Catholic Church.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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  • Non-Catholic garbage.  It's astonishing to me how many so-called R&R have lost the Catholic and have embraced repackaged Old Catholicism.

    Archbishop Lefebvre never denied the MAJOR that the Papacy is protected by the Holy Spirit and incapable of foisting such evil upon the faithful.  Unfortunately, of those who claim to be his heirs and his followers, many of them openly deny this basic Catholic truth, without which there is no Catholic Church.

    I'm impressed, Lad: It appears you read a 17 page docuмent in 1.5 minutes!

    Or, it appears you a priori reject any arguments which rebut your many errors.

    To date, these include:

    1) The stupid Siri Thesis;
    2) The even stupider flat earth nonsense;
    3) A condemned theory of ministerial intention;
    4) A rejection of the Church's teaching on BOD;
    5) A claim related to this last point, that the "error" of BOD comes from the entire church being unable to properly translate "voto" for centuries;
    6) No popes for the last 3 generations (and no way ever to get another one back);

    You would do better to contribute to a science fiction forum, since most of your novel theories more closely approximate that, than Catholic doctrine.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."