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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015  (Read 18459 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2023, 05:41:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 10, 2023, 04:13:51 PM
      What God creates is spotless, pure and holy (like Our Lady), as ONLY He can.  He would never force us to accept/condone that Divine things be defiled, dirtied, or abused.

    Let us not forget that He allowed His Only son to be abused, tortured and crucified, for us. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #106 on: March 10, 2023, 06:54:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on March 10, 2023, 02:25:01 PM
    So....you, the sedevacantists, and Five Anonymous Resistance Priests believe that +W was wrong in what he said in that conference. I guess that's the final and most authoritative judgment then.
    The final and most authoritative judgement can only come from the Church. The Shepherd is struck and the sheep are scattered. We have only Catholic principles that we do our best to apply in the meantime. The sad result of this situation is the many and varied judgements that you read on this thread, including yours Meg! Do you not believe your judgement right, just as the rest of us do? Beyond the borders of this Traditional forum there are many other judgements...

    When Bishop Williamson gave said advice to lady at conference, did he not introduce it by telling us that his opinion was the exception in the world of Tradition? Going on to say "I might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb"? You don't need to know the names of my five anonymous priests, ask any priest you like. I don't think you will find even one Resistance priest who will tell you that conference was okay. Bishop Williamson also now gives clear indication that it was not okay "what I meant to say", "what I should have done"... that's why I posted it.

    Here is another more or less authoritative judgement from the Dominicans:
    Attendance at the New Mass - Dominicans of Avrille, France (dominicansavrille.us)

    While I agree with this general advice of the Dominicans, I also agree with the principles expounded by Bishop Williamson, and the right of a confessor in exceptional circuмstances to permit attendance at a certainly valid NOM. However, I believe this situation would be so rare now (being certain of validity) that in practice I just wonder if it could ever happen...

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #107 on: March 10, 2023, 07:05:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: OABrownson1876 on March 10, 2023, 02:52:50 PM
    "Well, rather than starve, I better take a bite out of the rotten apple."  This analogy does not carry.  The man who lives in a city with no Latin Mass will not starve.  It might be inconvenient, he might need to rely on his rosary, his missal, his private prayers, etc., but he is not going to starve
    I agree with Bishop Williamson's analogy, similar to the one ABL used, posted earlier. This is where prudence and pastoral experience come in. You may well think that a man who lives in a city with no TLM will not starve, but you do not have this vast pastoral experience and knowledge of souls. Souls are very different, and what may be an occasion of sin, (e.g. discouragement, despair) for one, is not an occasion for another. It's not general advice. It's particular advice to a given soul under certain exceptional circuмstances. It is not encouraging the faithful to seek out a reverent NOM. That is very different. That's my opinion, I agree with BW. 
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #108 on: March 10, 2023, 07:27:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on March 10, 2023, 02:25:01 PM
    As we all know, it's the laity who really control Tradition. It seems to work on the same model as Opus Dei in that regard.
    Do you control Tradition where you are, Meg?
    I don't know why you would make such a statement.
    Thanks to Archbishop Lefebvre, we still have Tradition. God clearly raised up this great Churchman to be our guiding light in this crisis. I believe we should follow him faithfully, because in him I hear the voice of the Good Shepherd, I see only Catholic truth and holiness, prudence, courage... If I thought he were wrong on anything, if I could fault him according to Catholic teaching, I would not follow. But I don't and I can't. What a great light in the darkness God gave us. Do not the Resistance priests of Tradition, in general, strive in this manner?
    Yet his authority, and that of his successors, can never replace that of the Pope, and authority is crippled by this crisis. So it is inevitable that there will differences of opinion, unfaithful priests, pontificating laymen...
    But the laity in control? Opus Dei? Come on!
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #109 on: March 10, 2023, 07:53:37 PM »
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    Let us not forget that He allowed His Only son to be abused, tortured and crucified, for us. 
    :facepalm:  You missed the point of the analogy.  Did Christ ever sin or become spiritually corrupt, even 1%?  No, when we speak of the Mass, we are speaking of Christ on the altar, who can never sin, or become spiritually (doctrinally, theologically) "deficient".  
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #110 on: March 10, 2023, 08:07:52 PM »
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    • It is good to recall the general advice given by Archbishop Lefebvre on New Mass attendance in Open Letter to Confused Catholics:

    Your perplexity takes perhaps the following form: may I assist at a sacrilegious Mass which is nevertheless valid, in the absence of any other, in order to satisfy my Sunday obligation? The answer is simple: these Masses cannot be the object of an obligation; we must moreover apply to them the rules of moral theology and canon law as regards the participation or the attendance at an action which endangers the faith or may be sacrilegious.

    The New Mass, even when said with piety and respect for the liturgical rules, is subject to the same reservations since it is impregnated with the spirit of Protestantism. It bears within it a poison harmful to the faith. That being the case the French Catholic7 of today finds himself in the conditions of religious practice which prevail in missionary countries. There, the inhabitants in some regions are able to attend Mass only three or four times a year. The faithful of  our country should make the effort to attend once each month at the Mass of All Time, the true source of grace and sanctification, in one of those places where it continues to be held in honour.
    I owe it to truth to say and affirm without fear of error that the Mass codified by St. Pius V--and not invented by him, as some often say--expresses clearly these three realities: sacrifice, Real Presence, and the priesthood of the clergy.  It takes into account also, as the Council of Trent has pointed out, the nature of mankind which needs outside help to raise itself to meditation upon divine things. The established customs have not been made at random, they cannot be overthrown or abruptly abolished with impunity. How many of the faithful, how many young priests, how many bishops, have lost the faith since the introduction of these reforms! One cannot thwart nature and faith without their taking their revenge.

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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #111 on: March 11, 2023, 08:41:35 AM »
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    • Compare Bishop Williamson's words today regarding the New Mass vs. what he said in the following audio.  He has changed his public position.  Furthermore, with what he states in the audio, I cannot see how he could even privately permit one to attend the New Mass under any circuмstances.  

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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #112 on: March 11, 2023, 09:14:33 AM »
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    • 1:04 - 1:27 is all you need to hear.  "It's designed to please Protestants.  It's designed to undo Catholicism..."

    He forgot to mention that it was designed by Protestants, and Liberals, with a Freemason at the helm.  Through its use we've seen the nearly complete destruction of the Catholic religion in 60 short years.  "An enemy has done this."  I remain utterly perplexed that anyone actually tries to defend it.  
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #113 on: March 11, 2023, 10:52:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 10, 2023, 04:13:51 PM
    This is a contradiction in principles.  Anything contrary to the Faith, is necessarily inherently evil, because anything contrary to God (however small the contrary-ness is) is not of Him.  Anything which endangers the Truth, or doctrine, or Divine Law, is a compromise of it.  Because God does not deceive, nor can He be deceived.  He who is not 100% with God, is against Him, as He tells us in scripture.


    In human morality, acts and intention can blur, and thus you can have gray area.  In matters of Doctrine, Theology and the Faith, there can be no gray area.  God will not allow a circuмstance, nor will He allow us to be tempted, in such a way.  He does not trivialize Himself, His Religion or Truth in such a manner.  What God creates is spotless, pure and holy (like Our Lady), as ONLY He can.  He would never force us to accept/condone that Divine things be defiled, dirtied, or abused.
    To be honest I don’t know the history of the debate that way.  Maybe you’re right and Meg is wrong.  Or vice versa.  But it seems to me like a BIG part of the subtext between sspx and resistance debate is “who is representing archbishop Lefebvre correctly” and since Lefebvre did sometimes tell certain people they could attend certain NO in private, it’s NOT shocking to me that Williamson would defend the same thing.  And I wouldn’t be shocked on an sspx Resistance forum that a number of people would agree with archbishop Lefebvre.  It doesn’t seem to be that Williamson just compromised, but that he had a different principle than you to begin with
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #114 on: March 11, 2023, 01:25:25 PM »
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    • No, this is not (and should not) be a debate of +ABL vs +W or old-sspx vs new-sspx.  Catholic principles on this issue have been around for centuries and centuries.  Those who don’t know such principles, or how to properly apply them, generalize and summarize the arguments into “+ABL said this or that”.  

    That’s a gross misrepresentation of doctrine and Church history.  +ABL is not infallible but catholic principles (which theologians derive from doctrine) usually are, especially in regards to the sacraments.  

    So when we criticize +ABL or +W, we are criticizing their application of principles, which is easily shown to be contrary 1) to their own PRIOR personal sermons and 2) to the hundreds and hundreds of saints and theologians of history whose sole job was to develop and study such things.  

    +ABL and +W aren’t theologians and we shouldn’t treat them as such, especially when their views are contrary to historical theological views.  
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    Offline NIFH

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #115 on: March 11, 2023, 02:19:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 11, 2023, 01:25:25 PM
    +ABL and +W aren’t theologians and we shouldn’t treat them as such, especially when their views are contrary to historical theological views. 
    The Archbishop was awarded a doctorate in theology in 1930, after a previous doctorate in philosophy.  He was appointed seminary professor in 1932, and during the 30s and 40s he served as rector of two seminaries.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #116 on: March 11, 2023, 04:07:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 11, 2023, 01:25:25 PM
    No, this is not (and should not) be a debate of +ABL vs +W or old-sspx vs new-sspx.  Catholic principles on this issue have been around for centuries and centuries.  Those who don’t know such principles, or how to properly apply them, generalize and summarize the arguments into “+ABL said this or that”. 

    That’s a gross misrepresentation of doctrine and Church history.  +ABL is not infallible but catholic principles (which theologians derive from doctrine) usually are, especially in regards to the sacraments. 

    So when we criticize +ABL or +W, we are criticizing their application of principles, which is easily shown to be contrary 1) to their own PRIOR personal sermons and 2) to the hundreds and hundreds of saints and theologians of history whose sole job was to develop and study such things. 

    +ABL and +W aren’t theologians and we shouldn’t treat them as such, especially when their views are contrary to historical theological views. 
    Are you yourself a theologian?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #117 on: March 11, 2023, 04:17:57 PM »
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    • I stand corrected on +ABL.  Thank you.

    But my point still stands.  History shows us how former Catholics handled such a crisis.  English Catholics suffered martyrdom instead of accepting Anglican heresies.  And, at the time of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I, most Anglican priests were still valid.  So they suffered death to avoid certainly valid masses by certainly valid priests.  They died in protest of heretical masses.  

    But today, people think it’s ok to go VERY doubtful masses said by VERY doubtful priests. This is crazy.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #118 on: March 11, 2023, 06:03:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 10, 2023, 07:53:37 PM
    :facepalm:  You missed the point of the analogy.  Did Christ ever sin or become spiritually corrupt, even 1%?  No, when we speak of the Mass, we are speaking of Christ on the altar, who can never sin, or become spiritually (doctrinally, theologically) "deficient". 

    It's not about Christ sinning or being corrupt. Of course He was wasn't corrupt, not did He ever sin. But those around him did. When Our Lord was tortured and murdered, of course he was sinless and innocent. But those who tortured and murdered him were not sinless and innocent.... and still God the Father allowed it. He allowed sin in the form of those around Our Dear Lord, though Our Dear Lord was still pure and innocent. God the Father allowed it for out benefit. Even though we didn't, and still do not deserve it. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson Admits Mistake re Public Comments on NOM Attendance in 2015
    « Reply #119 on: March 11, 2023, 06:10:11 PM »
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    • Meg, if you want to be like the Joos and Roman pagans, and crucify Christ again, then attend the new mass, where Christ is blasphemed, mocked, etc.  Or make allowances where others can go.  

    If you want to be like Our Lady, and St John, and the others at the foot of Calvary, then we don't take part in the sacrilege of the new mass, but we pray (and educate) those to stop hurting Our Lord and we console Him by attending the True Mass. 

    The english martyrs didn't go to the anglican heretical rite and they CERTAINLY wouldn't go to the new mass (which is far, far worse).
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