Author Topic: Bishop Williamson  (Read 4296 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pablo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 177
  • Reputation: +0/-0
Bishop Williamson
« on: October 29, 2012, 12:53:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Please pray for Bishop Richard Williamson, a noble prelate whose wisdom and zeal for the truth have inspired many.

    On October 23, 2012, the good Bishop was cast out of the SSPX, where he had labored tirelessly for 36 years.

    His continued membership in the SSPX would have made a premature union with Rome more difficult.

    "I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile." - Pope Gregory VII..."

    I hope many are reading this statement at the end of your blog.

    I think I missed it a few times at first myself.


    *

    Offline Adolphus

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 467
    • Reputation: +467/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #1 on: October 29, 2012, 10:02:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't really know what to think of Bp. Williamson.  It is true that H. E. opposed Bp. Fellay many times and many of his writings, sermons and conferences are very good.  But it is also true that he has done some things that make me think he is not being honest, that he could be an infiltrator in the resistance:

    His recommendation to read Valtorta's book, which was disapproved by the Church en 1949 and then included in the Index in 1959.  Bp. Williamson has recommended this book at least two times.

    See http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=11238

    Many priests and faithful have seen in Bp. Williamson the natural leader for the resistance.  Thus, his comments and advices are taken very seriously.  Why not recommending to be proactive somehow?  Priests could (and should) warn the laity about what BXVI keeps doing, his errors and the impossibility of conciliating the modernist rome with the Tradition.  Priests could (and should) reread ABL's writings and sermons to be constantly reminded of the original SSPX's principles.

    Time is against us.  An advice to the SSPX priests to lie low for the moment and wait is completely opposite to what it is necessary right now.  His advice to the SSPX laity to attend SSPX Masses for the time being, watching out for the moment while their faith is not threaten is out of context.  What is being said and done inside the Society threatens the faith.  It is true that some —and perhaps many— priests appose an agreement with rome, but many of them are afraid and do very little.  Thus, how the faithful will know their faith is in danger?



    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23139
    • Reputation: +20287/-248
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #2 on: October 29, 2012, 11:12:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Adolphus
    I don't really know what to think of Bp. Williamson.  It is true that H. E. opposed Bp. Fellay many times and many of his writings, sermons and conferences are very good.  But it is also true that he has done some things that make me think he is not being honest, that he could be an infiltrator in the resistance:

    His recommendation to read Valtorta's book, which was disapproved by the Church en 1949 and then included in the Index in 1959.  Bp. Williamson has recommended this book at least two times.

    See http://z10.invisionfree.com/Ignis_Ardens/index.php?showtopic=11238

    Many priests and faithful have seen in Bp. Williamson the natural leader for the resistance.  Thus, his comments and advices are taken very seriously.  Why not recommending to be proactive somehow?  Priests could (and should) warn the laity about what BXVI keeps doing, his errors and the impossibility of conciliating the modernist rome with the Tradition.  Priests could (and should) reread ABL's writings and sermons to be constantly reminded of the original SSPX's principles.

    Time is against us.  An advice to the SSPX priests to lie low for the moment and wait is completely opposite to what it is necessary right now.  His advice to the SSPX laity to attend SSPX Masses for the time being, watching out for the moment while their faith is not threaten is out of context.  What is being said and done inside the Society threatens the faith.  It is true that some —and perhaps many— priests appose an agreement with rome, but many of them are afraid and do very little.  Thus, how the faithful will know their faith is in danger?


    Hey, Adolphus, whoever you are (because I for one don't have a clue), what makes *me* very suspicious of someone being an agent provocateur is when they start goading me and others on to action.

    You seldom regret taking your time. "Act in haste, repent at leisure." Hasty actions are seldom well-thought-out or prudent.

    I completely agree with him about attending SSPX Mass centers for the moment. Why would we leave? Nothing has changed at my chapel. I would be  a home aloner looking for an excuse if I were to leave right now.

    And why shouldn't the priests hang tight for a few weeks? +W got expelled let see... 6 days ago. It takes a bit of time to set up bank accounts, arrange for living quarters, a new headquarters, etc.

    Has it occurred to you that it would be MORE advantageous for the Resistance to wait at this point? To talk over the phone, e-mail, etc. and then on a certain day, 50 priests leave the SSPX and join the SSPX-SO? Have you ever heard of "critical mass" or "media event"?  I think Menzingen would LOVE to pick off the priests one by one as they try to "act" or leave on their own, in a piecemeal fashion.

    You hotheads really need to slow down and engage your brain a bit. Now I see why some people criticize the Resistance as being emotional, etc.!  I, for one, am NOT in a tizzy, I am in full control of my reason. I'm dealing with the situation AS IT DEVELOPS and I'm not jumping the gun on anything.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +120/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #3 on: October 29, 2012, 11:20:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Poor 'Athanasius' doesn't want to accept that the vast bulk of priests and laity in Britain and Ireland are against the agreement and support Bishop Williamson.Two priests in Ireland are pro-agreement but bulk of faithful in their chapel are against the deal.

    http://www.catholictruthscotland.com/blog/2012/09/society-of-saint-pius-x-news/
    Quote
    Southwell

    Bishop Williamosn has entered into his dotage, like a second childhood. His Excellency’s behaviour, shall we say, is petty and childish, as has been that of many of the SSPX priests in the UK, who have followed his bad example by their partisan behaviour.

    The priests have sent out confusing signals to the faithful here in the UK, showing their contempt for the Superior General by their sarcastic remarks and foot-stamping response to his forced action. It’s just like being back in the Modernist parishes where all the priests do their own thing and prefer their own will. I hope I’m wrong but I see the devil leading a few good men down the wrong road to formal schism with the Church by this pride and disobedience. This cult following of Bishop Williamson is greatly deluded and will end in disaster for those who are caught up in it.

    Offline stgobnait

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1346
    • Reputation: +941/-56
    • Gender: Female
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #4 on: October 29, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • on a certain day 50 priests leave the SSPX and join the SSPX SO... hmmmm...... i suppose we need to cultivate the virtue of hope.....


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23139
    • Reputation: +20287/-248
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #5 on: October 29, 2012, 11:32:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Pablo
    Please pray for Bishop Richard Williamson, a noble prelate whose wisdom and zeal for the truth have inspired many.

    On October 23, 2012, the good Bishop was cast out of the SSPX, where he had labored tirelessly for 36 years.

    His continued membership in the SSPX would have made a premature union with Rome more difficult.

    "I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile." - Pope Gregory VII..."

    I hope many are reading this statement at the end of your blog.

    I think I missed it a few times at first myself.

    *


    If you'd slow down, you would have seen it.

    You're basically admitting how bad you are at taking in the whole situation before acting.

    That message has been there for a while, but before that a very similar message supporting +W has been there for a LONG time.

    If you could miss that, what else have you blown past?
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline John Grace

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5521
    • Reputation: +120/-6
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #6 on: October 29, 2012, 11:36:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Pablo
    Please pray for Bishop Richard Williamson, a noble prelate whose wisdom and zeal for the truth have inspired many.

    On October 23, 2012, the good Bishop was cast out of the SSPX, where he had labored tirelessly for 36 years.

    His continued membership in the SSPX would have made a premature union with Rome more difficult.

    "I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile." - Pope Gregory VII..."

    I hope many are reading this statement at the end of your blog.

    I think I missed it a few times at first myself.

    *


    If you'd slow down, you would have seen it.

    You're basically admitting how bad you are at taking in the whole situation before acting.

    That message has been there for a while, but before that a very similar message supporting +W has been there for a LONG time.

    If you could miss that, what else have you blown past?


    Has Pablo read the open letter? It's doing the rounds in various languages.

    Offline padrepio

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 177
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #7 on: October 29, 2012, 12:10:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It seems to me the difficulty with forums is we don't know each others background information and who they really are, and we can't ask anyone or vouch for each other.  Also, especially when your not used to posting or in a hurry, comments sometimes come out in fragments.

    I have had doubts about certain people or situations posted here, as others have, but refrain from saying so because those messages usually get shot down pretty quick, and with a lot of anger.  I would rather hear reassurances than have the messengers shot down.  And, that is only my opinion, take it however you like.


    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23139
    • Reputation: +20287/-248
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #8 on: October 29, 2012, 12:27:13 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: padrepio
    It seems to me the difficulty with forums is we don't know each others background information and who they really are, and we can't ask anyone or vouch for each other.  Also, especially when your not used to posting or in a hurry, comments sometimes come out in fragments.

    I have had doubts about certain people or situations posted here, as others have, but refrain from saying so because those messages usually get shot down pretty quick, and with a lot of anger.  I would rather hear reassurances than have the messengers shot down.  And, that is only my opinion, take it however you like.


    "Truth is unknowable", huh?  I disagree. We most certainly can vouch for each other. You can't tell me that we can't gain MORAL CERTAINTY about various members on this forum and elsewhere. You can always PM, e-mail, phone, or visit members of this forum. We're all real people and there are plenty of ways to establish real, trustful relationships with members here.

    Telesphorus spent the night here a couple months ago. We can vouch for each other to some extent. Several other members live in the San Antonio area, and I see them from time to time or speak to them by phone.

    We're not talking about anonymous Internet identities (at least in this thread), we're talking about Bishop Williamson.

    He has proven himself sufficiently.

    I'm not going to let anonymous cowards hiding behind a keyboard cast slurs in the good Bishop's name. CathInfo is about TRUTH, not error. If there is something posted on CathInfo I know with certainty isn't true, I'm going to take care of it.

    I allow "freedom of speech" on matters that aren't certain. But I'm not going to allow all kinds of ridiculous accusations on solid members of the Traditional community such as Bishop Williamson. I've learned in my decades as a Trad Catholic that paranoia runs deep among traditional Catholics. I guess it's understandable from a human standpoint, but it's still wrong.

    I'm sorry if some "damaged goods" trad Catholics are no longer able to trust. I'm sad for you. But I still have some trust left, and I haven't completely despaired.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline padrepio

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 177
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #9 on: October 29, 2012, 12:40:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Are you speaking of Truth as in a person, or in our Catholic Faith.

    I wasn't talking about despair, I meant doubt.

    Personally, I like Bishop Williamson, at my conditional Confirmation 20 years ago, he stated, in his sermon, if you ever see the Society go in the wrong direction, don't follow them.  Those words are blazed in our memories.  Also, he gives a very hard slap.

    Offline Ferdinand

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 391
    • Reputation: +0/-1
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 12:58:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The primary concern for the "man in the pew" will be validity of the Sacraments.

    There is positive doubt for many as to the validity of orders of the FSSP, ICKSP, TLM Motu crowd, etc.  The same is the case for those not conditionally ordained coming out of the NSSPX Regina Caeli "Novus Ordo detox center".

    It would not be beyond Menzingen to foist these dubious Sacraments throughout the NSSPX chapels as sort of a litmus test in order to divide and conquer.



    Offline Matthew

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 23139
    • Reputation: +20287/-248
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #11 on: October 29, 2012, 01:25:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: padrepio
    Are you speaking of Truth as in a person, or in our Catholic Faith.


    In either case, truth is knowable.

    You can investigate the people and names on here. We are all real people who have friends, family, and most of us have a chapel we attend.

    If we all had names like Anonymous1543, Anonymous1230, etc. and used the TOR network, and never talked about ourselves personally -- then maybe you'd be right. Figuring out the truth would be extremely difficult/impossible.

    But we're not THAT anonymous.

    And almost none of us are so aloof we won't respond to a PM, e-mail, or phone call.
    Start your Amazon.com session by clicking this link, and my family and I get a commission on your purchase!

    Offline MiserereMeiDeus

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +445/-23
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #12 on: October 29, 2012, 03:28:23 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Adolphus
    His recommendation to read Valtorta's book, which was disapproved by the Church en 1949 and then included in the Index in 1959.  Bp. Williamson has recommended this book at least two times.



    In 1948 Pope Pius XII gave verbal permission for the book to be published according to three credible witnesses who signed a statement to that effect. When it was put on the index, the stated reason was that it hadn't been issued an imprimatur. Apparently the reason for that was that the publisher was in a big hurry to get it published and sent it straight to Rome without getting the local ordinary to sign off on it first. Anyway, it's not a straightforward story, with much more than meets the eye, and Vatican politics involved.
    "Jesus was the fruit of Mary, as Elizabeth expressed it: 'Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.' Whoever wishes for the fruit, must go to the tree; whoever wishes for Jesus must go to Mary; and he who finds Mary, also certain

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18173
    • Reputation: +8256/-638
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #13 on: October 29, 2012, 06:19:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Quote from: John Grace
    Quote from: Matthew
    Quote from: Pablo
    Please pray for Bishop Richard Williamson, a noble

    prelate whose wisdom and zeal for the truth have inspired many.

    On October 23, 2012, the good Bishop was cast out of the SSPX, where he had labored tirelessly for 36

    years.

    His continued membership in the SSPX would have made a premature union with Rome more difficult.

    "I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile." - Pope Gregory VII..."

    I hope many are reading this statement at the end of your blog.

    I think I missed it a few times at first myself.

    *


    If you'd slow down, you would have seen it.

    You're basically admitting how bad you are at taking in the whole situation before acting.

    That message has been there for a while, but before that a very similar message supporting +W has been

    there for a LONG time.

    If you could miss that, what else have you blown past?


    Has Pablo read the open letter? It's doing the rounds in various languages.



    "I have loved justice and hated iniquity; therefore I die in exile."
    - Pope Gregory VII..."


    For the record, Pope Gregory was quoting Scripture, and thereby giving
    us a message that we would not understand by just reading the words he
    wrote, but only by interpretation of the context and the source of his
    words:

    Which Scripture is it?

    Well, that is not simply answered, for it occurs twice in Scripture, once in
    the OT and then again in the NT where St. Paul is quoting the OT. So it is
    not plagiarism, but rather the Apostle of the Gentiles teaching us how to
    properly apply Scripture to learning about our religion.

    "Thy throne, o God, is forever and ever : a scepter of justice is a scepter
    of Thy kingdom.  Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity : therefore
    God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy
    fellows" (Heb. i. 9).

    But St. Paul here quotes not only Ps. xliv.* 7-8, but also Ps. ii. 7, II Kgs.
    vii. 14, Ps. xcvi. 7, Ps. ciii. 4, Ps. cx. 26, and Ps. cix. 1 - all in the last half
    of Hebrews cap. i.  The summary of this chapter given by Dr. Challoner and
    Dr. H.J. Ganss, is this: "God spoke of old by the prophets, but now by his
    Son, who is incomparably greater than the angels."

    Nor is Scripture the only reference for these words.  For Pope Gregory was
    one of our recent popes (less than 200 years ago - the time span that Trent
    held as the touchstone of less than that which constitutes antiquity) who
    used the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass prayers exclusively, in which is
    to be found quotations of Hebrews 1:9 or xliv. 8 in the Mass, such as for
    the Feast of St. Lucy, Dec. 13th (Graduale), which is the same Scripture as
    the Introit for the First Mass of Virgin Not a Martyr (Dilexisti), getting its
    name from the first Latin word in the Introit:

    Dilexisti judiciam et odisti iniquitatem : proptera unixit te Deus, Deus tuus,
    oleo laetitiae prae consortibus tuis, (P.T. Alleluia, alleluia.) Ps. ibid 2.
    Eructavit cor meum verbum bonum : dico ego opera mea Regi. v. Gloria
    Patri.


    This same Psalm is also used in the Masses For a Virgin Martyr, starting
    with the Gradual for the First Mass, Loquebar, and then the Offertory for
    the Second Mass, Me Expectaverunt (v. 15-16, 3 respectively).

    What does Pope Gregory say, "Thou hast loved justice?"  No, he says "I
    have loved justice."  And what of the rest: does Pope Gregory say,
    "...therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness
    above thy fellows?  No, he says, rather: "...therefore I die in exile."  

    What can we adduce from this difference?  We are not prohibited from
    saying that since the Pope borrowed from Scripture words that he would
    apply to his own condition, the words he kept intact can be said to give
    the same meaning to his statement that they give in the Bible; but in
    regard to the other parts, the words he uses for his own condition can be
    said to have a meaning not entirely unrelated to the words of the Bible
    that they replace.  I.e., "...therefore I die in exile" can be thought
    perhaps similarly to ...therefore God, my God, hath anointed me with
    the oil of gladness above my fellows.
     That is to say, Pope Gregory
    is saying it without saying it, for the truth is one, and a good Pope would
    not be quoting Scripture to teach the opposite of what the Bible would
    have us believe.  And it is up to the reader to discern his message, if he
    can, and if he cares to do so.  Many who are able to do so, choose not
    to do it.  Is Pope Gregory complaining about his death in exile?  No, he
    is rather rejoicing to be anointed with the oil of gladness above his
    fellows, that is, to suffer this cross of dying in exile, which he loves, not
    because he loves to suffer, but because it is the manifest will of God
    that he endures this death in exile, and he therefore embraces it so as
    to be in even closer union to Our Redeemer and Lord, Who suffered His
    passion willingly to free us from our sins.

    *Note: Depending on the Bible version that you're using, the Psalms
    can be rather difficult to verify, because they had suffered a lot of
    changes in numbering due to the Protestant Revolution.  I tried to
    verify online using the so-called Douay-Rheims version at
    drb.scripturetext.com and found that this verse, "7 Thou hast loved
    justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee
    with the oil of gladness above thy fellows," is showing up as Psalm
    45, not Psalm 44. A quick check of Ps. 22 proves they have renumbered
    it "Ps. 23," like all the Protestant bibles do.  So one must wonder how
    many other inaccuracies there are at drb.scripturetext.com ?

    -- But this discrepancy seems to have made it into the St. Andrew
    Daily Missal as well, for it has Ps. xliv. 8 where my 1924 Cardinal Hays
    Douay-Rheims Bible has Ps. xliv. 7 (not verse 8).  At least they got
    the chapter number correct, no?







    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18173
    • Reputation: +8256/-638
    • Gender: Male
    Bishop Williamson
    « Reply #14 on: October 29, 2012, 06:44:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • The lousy ink dried again  :smash-pc:

    Mistake: I confused Gregory VII (d. 1085) with Gregory XVI (d. 1846).
    So Trent has nothing specifically to do with Greg. VII.  Sorry.


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16