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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary  (Read 2584 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
« on: June 03, 2019, 09:04:19 PM »
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    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #1 on: June 03, 2019, 09:16:51 PM »
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    • The way he said that he thinks the pope is the pope because he “looks as if he is occupying the office of Peter” and that it is “sifficient enough” is a terrible reason IMO to be a sedeplenist. There is no theology whatsoever involved in that. 
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #2 on: June 03, 2019, 11:06:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on June 03, 2019, 09:16:51 PM
    The way he said that he thinks the pope is the pope because he “looks as if he is occupying the office of Peter” and that it is “sifficient enough” is a terrible reason IMO to be a sedeplenist. There is no theology whatsoever involved in that.
    I think the underlying reasoning is he knows its not his call to make
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #3 on: June 04, 2019, 08:17:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on June 03, 2019, 09:16:51 PM
    The way he said that he thinks the pope is the pope because he “looks as if he is occupying the office of Peter” and that it is “sifficient enough” is a terrible reason IMO to be a sedeplenist. There is no theology whatsoever involved in that.

    There is some theology there; it's the same privationism articulated by Father Chazal.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #4 on: June 04, 2019, 08:22:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 03, 2019, 11:06:12 PM
    I think the underlying reasoning is he knows its not his call to make

    Correct.  +Williamson is a sede-doubtist like myself.

    Most R&R don't like to hear this, but +Williamson is correct when he asserts that this was +Lefebvre's position as well.

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/


    Quote
    “It is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope. For twenty years Mgr de Castro Mayer and I preferred to wait…I think we are waiting for the famous meeting in Assisi, if God allows it.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, published in The Angelus, July 1986)

    “I don’t know if the time has come to say that the pope is a heretic (…) Perhaps after this famous meeting of Assisi, perhaps we must say that the pope is a heretic, is apostate. Now I don’t wish yet to say it formally and solemnly, but it seems at first sight that it is impossible for a pope to be formally and publicly heretical. (…) So it is possible we may be obliged to believe this pope is not pope.” (Talk, March 30 and April 18, 1986, text published in The Angelus, July 1986)
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #5 on: June 04, 2019, 09:08:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on June 03, 2019, 09:16:51 PM
    The way he said that he thinks the pope is the pope because he “looks as if he is occupying the office of Peter” and that it is “sifficient enough” is a terrible reason IMO to be a sedeplenist. There is no theology whatsoever involved in that.

    You are correct that this is not in fact sedeplenism (I call it sede-doubtism).  If you are a sedeplenist in the strict sense, there can be no doubt whatsoever, but only 100% certainty of faith, since papal legitimacy is a dogmatic fact.
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    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #6 on: June 04, 2019, 10:25:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 04, 2019, 08:22:45 AM
    Correct.  +Williamson is a sede-doubtist like myself.

    Most R&R don't like to hear this, but +Williamson is correct when he asserts that this was +Lefebvre's position as well.

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2012/09/04/pro-sedevacantism-quotes-from-abp-lefebvre/

    Strange that many R & R don't like to hear that. You would think it the natural default position. 
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    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #7 on: June 04, 2019, 11:02:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: homeschoolmom on June 04, 2019, 10:25:16 AM
    Strange that many R & R don't like to hear that. You would think it the natural default position.
    It’s true that there’s many who try to make out the conciliar popes as dogmatic fact and try to use Archbishop Lefebvres “neither schismatic or modernist” line as a de facto denunciation when in fact that was never his position. Then of course along came Salsa and Siscoe and wrote a book how we can know for certain that they are in fact Pope when we can’t really say. 
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    Please disregard everything I have said; I have tended to speak before fact checking.

    Offline CatholicInAmerica

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #8 on: June 04, 2019, 12:05:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 04, 2019, 09:08:03 AM
    You are correct that this is not in fact sedeplenism (I call it sede-doubtism).  If you are a sedeplenist in the strict sense, there can be no doubt whatsoever, but only 100% certainty of faith, since papal legitimacy is a dogmatic fact.
    Can you explain sede doubtism? 
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #9 on: June 04, 2019, 01:06:17 PM »
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    • It’s possible both to reject strict sedeplenism in the sense that ladislaus describes, to say that the Church might yet declare one or more of these popes are in fact antipopes, AND yet say that to be a Sedevacantist and to overtly reject communion with these men while they are recognized by the Catholic world as pope sin schismatic.

    I’m not sure if that’s what lefebvre thought, or even if that’s correct, but I see no logical inconsistency on it 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #10 on: June 04, 2019, 02:59:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: CatholicInAmerica on June 04, 2019, 12:05:37 PM
    Can you explain sede doubtism?

    It's basically a middle road.  I agree that individual Catholics cannot go around deposing Popes, but I also agree with the sedevacantists that if they are certainly Popes then we owe them our submission.  But I consider their status to be objectively doubtful.  Consequently, we can reject their teachings and their authority without schism.  I can go into more details, but that's it in a nutshell.  You see, normally we accept Popes with the certainty of faith.  If we do not have that certainty of faith regarding their legitimacy, we are NOT IN FACT SEDEPLENISTS in the true sense, but rather what I have called (partly tongue-in-cheek) sede-doubtists.  And both +Lefebvre and +Williamson and +Tissier have expressed doubts (or at least lack of 100% certainty of faith).  Consequently they do not hold them legitimate with the requisite certainty of faith and are not therefore true sedeplenists.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #11 on: June 04, 2019, 03:30:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on June 04, 2019, 01:06:17 PM
    It’s possible both to reject strict sedeplenism in the sense that ladislaus describes, to say that the Church might yet declare one or more of these popes are in fact antipopes, AND yet say that to be a Sedevacantist and to overtly reject communion with these men while they are recognized by the Catholic world as pope sin schismatic.

    I’m not sure if that’s what lefebvre thought, or even if that’s correct, but I see no logical inconsistency on it

    Once you express doubts, though, you cannot call those who refuse communion with them schismatics, since if there's serious positive doubt then communion/submission is not required.  That's been taught explicitly by a number of Catholic canonists.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #12 on: June 04, 2019, 03:34:49 PM »
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    • I think the "sede-doubtist" opinion is basically the opinion of the SSPV, CatholicinAmerica,
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #13 on: June 04, 2019, 04:00:19 PM »
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    • Quote
    I think the "sede-doubtist" opinion is basically the opinion of the SSPV, 
    If this were true, then dogmatic sedevacantism wouldn’t exist.  As it is, many sedes (including the priests) treat other Trads as if sedevacantism is 100% certain, which it isn’t.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Williamson 2018: sedevacantism and Bishop Faure's seminary
    « Reply #14 on: June 04, 2019, 04:02:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 04, 2019, 03:34:49 PM
    I think the "sede-doubtist" opinion is basically the opinion of the SSPV, CatholicinAmerica,

    That's my feeling as well.  I've seen Father Jenkins in particular articulate a very similar position.
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