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Author Topic: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism  (Read 9126 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2024, 12:36:31 PM »
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  • Let's see the actual quote. I won't hold my breath waiting or it. :laugh1:

    Read TC, Salza.  It's in there and was called out at the time that nonsense was issued.  I'm not going to spend my time pulling it out for you, since you don't give a rip anyway and already have your heretically-diseased mind made up on this matter.

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #76 on: August 15, 2024, 12:43:21 PM »
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  • Read TC, Salza.  It's in there and was called out at the time that nonsense was issued.  I'm not going to spend my time pulling it out for you, since you don't give a rip anyway and already have your heretically-diseased mind made up on this matter.
    That's what I thought.  You can't provide the quote because it's not in there.  Are you in the habit of calumniating Francis by falsely accusing him of teaching what he doesn't teach.  You do realize that is a mortal sin, right?


    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #77 on: August 15, 2024, 12:48:23 PM »
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  • Read TC, Salza.  It's in there and was called out at the time that nonsense was issued. 

    I'll make it easy for you. Here is TC.  Point to the part where Francis says "he was suppressing Tridentine Mass precisely because it was incompatible with the V2/Conciliar theology," and the part where he said: "the Conciliar Religion is mutually exclusive of the pre-Vatican II Catholic Faith," which you said was "something which Jorge admitted explicitly when suppressing the Tridentine Mass in TC." 

    Since you have clearly never read TC yourself (no surprise there), here is he entire docuмent, which is quite short, so you can read it all in context.



    Quote
    APOSTOLIC LETTER
    ISSUED "MOTU PROPRIO"
    BY THE SUPREME PONTIFF
    FRANCIS
    «TRADITIONIS CUSTODES»
    On the Use of the Roman Liturgy
    Prior to the Reform of 1970



    Official translation
     

    Guardians of the tradition, the bishops in communion with the Bishop of Rome constitute the visible principle and foundation of the unity of their particular Churches. [1] Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the Gospel and by means of the celebration of the Eucharist, they govern the particular Churches entrusted to them. [2]

    In order to promote the concord and unity of the Church, with paternal solicitude towards those who in any region adhere to liturgical forms antecedent to the reform willed by the Vatican Council II, my Venerable Predecessors, Saint John Paul II and Benedict XVI, granted and regulated the faculty to use the Roman Missal edited by John XXIII in 1962. [3] In this way they intended “to facilitate the ecclesial communion of those Catholics who feel attached to some earlier liturgical forms” and not to others. [4]

    In line with the initiative of my Venerable Predecessor Benedict XVI to invite the bishops to assess the application of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificuм three years after its publication, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith carried out a detailed consultation of the bishops in 2020. The results have been carefully considered in the light of experience that has matured during these years.

    At this time, having considered the wishes expressed by the episcopate and having heard the opinion of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, I now desire, with this Apostolic Letter, to press on ever more in the constant search for ecclesial communion. Therefore, I have considered it appropriate to establish the following:

    Art. 1. The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite.

    Art. 2. It belongs to the diocesan bishop, as moderator, promoter, and guardian of the whole liturgical life of the particular Church entrusted to him, [5] to regulate the liturgical celebrations of his diocese. [6] Therefore, it is his exclusive competence to authorize the use of the 1962 Roman Missal in his diocese, according to the guidelines of the Apostolic See.

    Art. 3. The bishop of the diocese in which until now there exist one or more groups that celebrate according to the Missal antecedent to the reform of 1970:

    § 1. is to determine that these groups do not deny the validity and the legitimacy of the liturgical reform, dictated by Vatican Council II and the Magisterium of the Supreme Pontiffs;

    § 2. is to designate one or more locations where the faithful adherents of these groups may gather for the eucharistic celebration (not however in the parochial churches and without the erection of new personal parishes);

    § 3. to establish at the designated locations the days on which eucharistic celebrations are permitted using the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962. [7] In these celebrations the readings are proclaimed in the vernacular language, using translations of the Sacred Scripture approved for liturgical use by the respective Episcopal Conferences;

    § 4. to appoint a priest who, as delegate of the bishop, is entrusted with these celebrations and with the pastoral care of these groups of the faithful. This priest should be suited for this responsibility, skilled in the use of the Missale Romanum antecedent to the reform of 1970, possess a knowledge of the Latin language sufficient for a thorough comprehension of the rubrics and liturgical texts, and be animated by a lively pastoral charity and by a sense of ecclesial communion. This priest should have at heart not only the correct celebration of the liturgy, but also the pastoral and spiritual care of the faithful;

    § 5. to proceed suitably to verify that the parishes canonically erected for the benefit of these faithful are effective for their spiritual growth, and to determine whether or not to retain them;

    § 6. to take care not to authorize the establishment of new groups.

    Art. 4. Priests ordained after the publication of the present Motu Proprio, who wish to celebrate using the Missale Romanum of 1962, should submit a formal request to the diocesan Bishop who shall consult the Apostolic See before granting this authorization.

    Art. 5. Priests who already celebrate according to the Missale Romanum of 1962 should request from the diocesan Bishop the authorization to continue to enjoy this faculty.

    Art. 6. Institutes of consecrated life and Societies of apostolic life, erected by the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, fall under the competence of the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies for Apostolic Life.

    Art. 7. The Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, for matters of their particular competence, exercise the authority of the Holy See with respect to the observance of these provisions.

    Art. 8. Previous norms, instructions, permissions, and customs that do not conform to the provisions of the present Motu Proprio are abrogated.

    Everything that I have declared in this Apostolic Letter in the form of Motu Proprio, I order to be observed in all its parts, anything else to the contrary notwithstanding, even if worthy of particular mention, and I establish that it be promulgated by way of publication in “L’Osservatore Romano”, entering immediately in force and, subsequently, that it be published in the official Commentary of the Holy See, Acta Apostolicae Sedis.

    Given at Rome, at Saint John Lateran, on 16 July 2021, the liturgical Memorial of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, in the ninth year of Our Pontificate.

    FRANCIS


    Now, be sure to go to confession to confess you pubic calumny; and be sure to go to a priest with faculties, lest the absolution wil be absolutely null and utterly void.

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #78 on: August 15, 2024, 12:51:59 PM »
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  • Yep, Salza ... spewing his garbage again.  Plus, you're also a slanderer, since I know of no SVs who hold that occult heretics lose office.  That's the one very minority opinion (of the 5) that I think was held by one or two theologians in the past few hundred years.

    The Dimond Brothers admit to holding it, as does Richard Ibranyi and Fr. Kramer, amongst others.  All the rest hold the positon as well without realizing it since what they call a "manifest heretic" is one who has done things that lead them to conclude he has lost the faith.  If the Pope does things that "manifest" to them that he has lost the faith, these ignoramuses think that makes him a "manifes heretic."  Why?  Because Sedevacantist heretics make up their own definition of terms.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #79 on: August 15, 2024, 12:57:24 PM »
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  • He appealed to Vatican II ecclesiology (as he interprets it) to defend his ecclesiastical status, namely, of belonging to a heretical sect. 


    If a child is baptized in a non-Catholic sect, such as the CMRI, and dies before attaining the age of reason, the baptism he received in that sect would save them.  In that sense, non-Catholic sects can be seen as a means of salvation, since it was in the non-Catholic sect, my non-Catholic minister, that he received the sacrament.


    Vatican II desn't teach that.  How long have you believe that lie without taking the time to look into it?


    Mr Wright, is the SSPX or The Resistance a non-Catholic sect too?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #80 on: August 15, 2024, 01:06:20 PM »
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  • The Dimond Brothers admit to holding it, as does Richard Ibranyi and Fr. Kramer, amongst others.

    Citations?  While I do not follow Ibranyi and don't know (or care about) what he says/thinks, I don't recall anything along these lines from the Dimond Brothers or Fr. Kramer ... unless you've decided to redefine occult heresy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #81 on: August 15, 2024, 01:08:03 PM »
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  • That's what I thought.  You can't provide the quote because it's not in there.  Are you in the habit of calumniating Francis by falsely accusing him of teaching what he doesn't teach.  You do realize that is a mortal sin, right?

    No, I haven't taken the time to cite Bergoglio because you're full of it and not interested in debating this issue with an open mind.  You just come back to troll again, Salza.  You too lazy to read TC yourself?

    Every time you come back here, you'r mind has become more and more diseased with your errors and your heretical depravity become more manifest.  This type of psychological wreckage is the inevitable result of a bad conscience.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #82 on: August 15, 2024, 01:16:12 PM »
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  • Mr Wright, is the SSPX or The Resistance a non-Catholic sect too?

    Good that you threw this down explicitly.  Every time Salza reappears here, he does so under the pretense of just attacking sedevacantism, thereby hoping to get some R&R / Resistance types piling on ... but then his principles are quickly exposed where he has to denoucne all Traditional Catholcis as being outsidet he Church and schismatic/heretical.


    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #83 on: August 15, 2024, 01:21:28 PM »
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  • No, I haven't taken the time to cite Bergoglio because you're full of it and not interested in debating this issue with an open mind.

    It's my fault that you refuse to back up your accusation by quoting him directly?  I don't think so. And I am willing to debate you or anyone with an open mind. But what you don't realize, is that I know far more about these issues than you do and I can entirely refute you or anyone else on this forum, quite easily.

    Quote
    You just come back to troll again, Salza.  You too lazy to read TC yourself?
    As I said before, I am not John Salze (or Josh Salza).  And in case you missed it, I just posted TC.

    Quote
    Every time you come back here, you'r mind has become more and more diseased with your errors and your heretical depravity become more manifest.

    Says the one who appeals to an ecclesiology that he declares to be heretical to defend his own position.

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #84 on: August 15, 2024, 01:27:32 PM »
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  • Citations?  While I do not follow Ibranyi and don't know (or care about) what he says/thinks, I don't recall anything along these lines from the Dimond Brothers or Fr. Kramer ... unless you've decided to redefine occult heresy.

    From Fr. Kramer:  “Faith, not merely the material and external profession of the objective content of faith, but the virtue of faith as a principium operationis is necessary to be in the soul of person of the pope as its subject in order to receive and preserve within himself the form of the supreme pontificate (…) it would clearly be impossible for one to be a valid Roman Pontiff without the virtue of faith. ... For the record, I do indeed hold that hypothetically, losing the virtue of faith, the pope would lose office."

    Needless to say, occult heretics lack the virtue of faith.  

    In numerous places, Ibranyi declares Bellarmine to be a heretic for maintaining that a pope who falls into occult heresy remains pope. In their video against the Remnant/Robert Siscoe, the Dimond Brother say a pope who falls into occut heresy ceases to be pope, and then err by claiming this is what Bellarmine teaches.

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #85 on: August 15, 2024, 02:00:05 PM »
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  • As I said before, I am not John Salze (or Josh Salza).  And in case you missed it, I just posted TC.


    You said you are not "John Salze" but are you "John Salza" ?
    Or are you Mr. Siscoe?

    Do you consider the SSPX or The Resistance a non-Catholic sect too?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #86 on: August 15, 2024, 02:05:08 PM »
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  • From Fr. Kramer:  “Faith, not merely the material and external profession of the objective content of faith, but the virtue of faith as a principium operationis is necessary to be in the soul of person of the pope as its subject in order to receive and preserve within himself the form of the supreme pontificate (…) it would clearly be impossible for one to be a valid Roman Pontiff without the virtue of faith. ... For the record, I do indeed hold that hypothetically, losing the virtue of faith, the pope would lose office."

    OK.  Not that it matters too much to me, since I would simply have to disagree with him on that, and let's just say those SVs who hold that occult heresy deposes from office are outliers and in the extreme minority.  If it mattered more to me, I'd like to see what is left out with the ellipses, but then perhaps Fr. Kramer's zealous follower here on CI, Catholic Knight, could take the time to do so.

    I don't want to spent too much time on the "5 Opinions".  Even the opinion of occult heresy deposing from office hasn't been condemned, and one is entitled to hold any one of them, and one is even entitled to the non-Salza interpretation of Bellarmine.  We're not going to resolve that debate here when much greater theologian minds than ours could not agree.

    So this is really the bottom line for me.  Is the Conciliar Church the Catholic Church?  Does it have the notes of the Catholic Church?  IMO, it clearly does not.  One needn't be a theologian to apply a simple test of the sensus Catholicus to determine that there's a huge clash, contradition, and mutual exclusivity between the pre-Vatican II Traditional Church and the Conciliar Church.  I became a Tradtional Catholic not for any deep theologial reason (and God doesn't expect Catholics to be theologicans) after reading St. Alphonsus' The Glories of Mary and concluding bascially that "this man does not have the same faith held by nearly everyone in the Conciliar Church".

    If you were to time-warp St. Pius X forward to today and have him behold a "World Youth Day" and read the "Magisterium" of Jorge Bergoglio, would HE recognize it as Catholic?  Absolutely not.  To claim anything else is a denial of reality that inevitably results in psychological damage, a split brain, where you try to reconcile the irreconcilable.

    Then, to me, the protection of Our Lord over the papacy precludes that a legitimate Pope in the exercise of his authority would be permitted by the Holy Ghost from perpetrating this type of transformative destruction of the Church.  In other words, the Church's indefectibility does not allow it.  There cannot be such a substantial change in the nature and the characteristics of the Church where it cannot be distinguished from any other Protestant sect either in its public worship or in its teaching.

    Now, the core erroneous teaching has to do with V2 ecclesiology, where the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation, is not co-extensive with the Catholic Church, and where non-Catholic groups are actually within the Church to varying degrees, so, since you accept this bogus/heretical teaching, why should it even matter to you if we're "heretics"?  Bergoglio himself chuckles about heresy and possibly being "heretical".  Just like the various "other" heretics and schismatics welcomed by the V2 papal claimants, we're fellow workers in the Lord's veinyard, exercising some kind of mission and apostolate in the Church.  While you've made a big deal about SSPX et al not having "mission," you're actually contradicting your own V2 "popes", who claim that non-Catholics do have missions and ministries from God (an error/heresy repeatedly taught by them).  In other words, your attacks against Traditional Catholics are shot down and undermined by your own "popes", whom you claim to follow, so what's your point?  If you're following their Magisterium, then lay off your fellow "separated brethren" already, and stop "prosletyzing" us here, since Bergolgio says it's sinful to come on here and prosletyze us.  Ironically, your line of attack contradicts the teaching of your own "popes" on the very same points that Traditional Catholics oppose/reject their teaching on.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #87 on: August 15, 2024, 02:06:53 PM »
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  • The Dimond Brothers admit to holding it, as does Richard Ibranyi and Fr. Kramer, amongst others.  All the rest hold the positon as well without realizing it since what they call a "manifest heretic" is one who has done things that lead them to conclude he has lost the faith.  If the Pope does things that "manifest" to them that he has lost the faith, these ignoramuses think that makes him a "manifes heretic."  Why?  Because Sedevacantist heretics make up their own definition of terms.

    it is false that Fr. Paul Kramer holds that occult heretics lose office.

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #88 on: August 15, 2024, 02:40:56 PM »
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  • So this is really the bottom line for me.  Is the Conciliar Church the Catholic Church? 

    Right.  That's really the question.  If, by the term Conciliar Church, you mean the visible society consisting of the local Church of Rome and the diosese and eparchy's throughout the world in union with it (which is indeed what you mean), that is indeed the Catholic Church, and it always has been.


    Quote
     Does it have the notes of the Catholic Church?  IMO, it clearly does not.  
    Of course it does.  If it didn't that would mean the true Church defected, since even you would have to admit that the visible Church, consisting of the local Church of Rome and the diocese and eparchy's in union wth it, was the true Church with four marks before Vatican II.  If that same visible soceity is no longer the true Church today. it follows that the true Church defected.  Period.  Uness, of course, you adopt the Protestant definition of indefectibility.  The Protestants deny that indefectibility applies to the "institutional Church" and instead maintain that it only guarantees that there will be true believers somewhere in the world. In reality, indefectibility means the visible Church, as described above - the institutional Church - will never defect, since the institutional Church, as such, is the subject in which the four marks adhere (and it is also the object to which the promises of Christ apply, i.e., that gates of hell shall not prevail).

    That is becase the visible Church with four marks also has the attribute of indefectibility.  Therefore, it is not possible that the visible Church that had the four marks before Vatican II could have lost them afterwards. This only leaves other possibility...

    The other possibility is that you have erred in concluding that the "Conciliar Church" lacks the four marks.  And your erroneous conclusion is based on two errors: 1) you mistakenly believe, like the Protestants, that the Catholic Church now teaches  "new religion."  It doesn't. 

    Your second error is that you don't know in what the unity of faith consists.  What it consists of is that there is a single body of doctrines that require the assent of faith (and that only includes the ones that have been definitively and therefore infallibly proposed), which all members of the Church - East and West - are bound to accept, at least implicitly.  That hasn't changed, and any additions to it since Vatican II are entirely traditional (i.e., that women cannot be ordained tothe priesthood).


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #89 on: August 15, 2024, 02:50:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    Any heresy that is not notorious is juridically occult; and none of the recent popes - including Francis - have been close to notorious heretics.
    Baloney.  Most absurd thing I've ever heard.