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Author Topic: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism  (Read 9164 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2024, 07:52:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 03:29:03 PM
    He hasn't suppressed all of them  There are two approved Traditional Masses in my area and neither has been suppressed.  But to your point, why is Francis restricting the Traditional Mass?  It could be because the majority of those who attend the Old Mass not only hate him and deny his legitimacy, but claim the Church over which he is the head is a false Church.  And that usually happens to those who begin attending the old Mass.  That could have something to do with why he is restricting it.

    I too think that the restrictions of the Latin Mass has something to do with the criticisms of him from those who attend the Latin Mass. That seems obvious. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be criticized, however. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #61 on: August 14, 2024, 10:49:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on August 14, 2024, 07:24:49 AM
    I would not be surprised if "Mr. Wright" is Josh Salza, or at least agrees with Salza that those Traditionalist without "official" approval are schismatic.

    THIS ^^^ (I've been thinking that the entire time).  :laugh1:
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #62 on: August 14, 2024, 10:51:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 03:29:03 PM
    He hasn't suppressed all of them  There are two approved Traditional Masses in my area and neither has been suppressed.

    :laugh1: ... Bergoglio admitted in TC that he was suppressing Tridentine Mass precisely because it was incompatible with the V2/Conciliar theology.  Bishop of Cleveland wanted to keep them but was forced to suppress, and was able to salvage one only by designating the church in question as a "shrine", but I'm sure those loopholes will be closed also.  It's very obvious that he's only keeping a handful around, grandfathered in, to prevent a wholesale migration of people over to SSPX, etc.  Bergoglio very clearly can't stand the Tridentine Mass and wants it gone.  Trying to pretend otherwise is indicative of some hallucinogenic substance you're taking along with hopium/copium.  In terms of claiming that Jorge is defending dogmas, you could probably count on one hand the dogmas he's gone out of his way to defend, and his two-hour-alleged-holy hours means nothing, as I'm sure you have Buddhists who meditate 8 hours a day, and that doesn't make them Catholic either.

    Bottom line, however, isn't Bergoglio ... it's the fact that the Conciliar Religion is mutually exclusive of the pre-Vatican II Catholic Faith, something which Jorge admitted explicitly when suppressing the Tridentine Mass in TC.  Conciliar Religion is either the Catholic Religion or it's not.  It's not.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #63 on: August 14, 2024, 10:58:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on August 14, 2024, 07:52:18 AM
    I too think that the restrictions of the Latin Mass has something to do with the criticisms of him from those who attend the Latin Mass. That seems obvious. That doesn't mean that he shouldn't be criticized, however.

    Bergoglio stated clearly that it's not about criticism of him personally but about the fact that the Tridentine Mass contradicts the V2/Conciliar theology / orientation, i.e. the Conciliar heresies.

    If ever there was anyone who denied the dogma that there's no salvation outside the Church, it's Jorge Bergoglio ... although his predecessors were equally religious indifferentists.  That's the core heresy of the Conciliar orientation, religious indifferentism.

    Of course, Salza declares Trads to be outside the Church based on Traditional theological principles, but the Conciliar/V2 religion actually holds that Traditionalists are IN the "Church of Christ" (along with the Orthodox schismatics and even many/most Prots).  So Salza violates the principles of the Conciliar ecclesiology in condemning Traditional Catholics.
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    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #64 on: August 14, 2024, 12:23:14 PM »
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    • Bergoglio is more likely to say, "There is only salvation outside the Church." 
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #65 on: August 14, 2024, 06:34:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 12, 2024, 07:01:42 AM
    Agreed.  But that doesn't make him "sede".

    Ohhh... but don't you see, he can't say these talismanic words that might alienate his social media ranking. 

    "Sede-vacantist", "jew", "conditional Apostolic Consecration"... these are all bad words that AI screens would detect to narrow his neo-trad base.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #66 on: August 15, 2024, 06:31:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on August 14, 2024, 06:34:38 PM

    Ohhh... but don't you see, he can't say these talismanic words that might alienate his social media ranking. 

    "Sede-vacantist", "jew", "conditional Apostolic Consecration"... these are all bad words that AI screens would detect to narrow his neo-trad base.
    Good point.  He also doesn't answer any valid questions on X, like this one:


    Novus Ordo Watch on X: "@CarloMVigano No, I did not notice that, and I apologize for the oversight. So, does that mean you now repudiate the Naturalism contained in your 2020 Letter to President Trump? Do you still call all people opposing the deep state 'children of light', when that is clearly not the biblical or" / X (twitter.com)

    Maybe he'll answer it in his next missive.
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    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #67 on: August 15, 2024, 10:31:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on August 14, 2024, 10:58:05 AM
    Of course, Salza declares Trads to be outside the Church based on Traditional theological principles, but the Conciliar/V2 religion actually holds that Traditionalists are IN the "Church of Christ" (along with the Orthodox schismatics and even many/most Prots).  So Salza violates the principles of the Conciliar ecclesiology in condemning Traditional Catholics.

    So, your version of Traditional Catholicism is refuted by "Traditional theologial principals," and to defend it you have to appeal to the "Conciliar/V2 religio, which you believe to be heretical?  O the irony.  What does that tell you about your versions of Traditional Catholicism?

    Last year, I witnessed Novus Ordo Watch get destroyed in a debate on Twitter. When the other guy pointed out that Mario Derksen of NO Watch belongs to a heretical sect, he defended himself by appearling to Vatican II!  The ecclesiology that he claims is heretical, is what he appeals to to justify his version of Traditional Catholicism.  What that proves is that his (and your) version of Traditional Catholicism is anything but Traditional. 


    And for the record, I am not Josh Salza (or John Salza).
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    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #68 on: August 15, 2024, 10:54:59 AM »
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    Maybe Francis an his minions are guilty of the sin of heresy, maybe they are not (God knows), but what is certain is that they are not notorious heretics (public heretics) since they never explicitly and directly deny any dogmas.
    One can be a heretic without explicitly or directly denying dogma.  In fact, to subvert dogma by implicit and subtle means is a greater sin because it shows a predetermined agenda and planning.  


    Just like premeditated murder is much, much harder to prove than a sudden-bar-fight-turned deadly, the former crime is much much worse than the latter, which is a case of situational aggression gone awry.  Often people can get away with premeditated murder because they can hide the evidence while a bar fight usually has many witnesses.  Both both cases result in murder and death.  

    The point being, the legal system (either secular or ecclesiastical) is limited as it is a fallible institution.  We can’t look to canon law as the sole judgement of heresy because there is also doctrine involved.  

    Canon Law may be insufficient to judge (on earth) such horrid, satanic heretics as Francis, but many saints, like St Paul, fill in the gaps by telling us to declare such “anathema”.  

    Catholic common sense is able to reject these people even if the (fallible, limited) canon law must wait for (human) justice.  “The wheels of justice turn slowly” is a truism; this does not mean that such heretics cannot be “judged” in the public realm of catholic ideals.  In fact, they should be judged, avoided and repudiated as St Paul and St Bellarmine (and many others) tell us.  
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #69 on: August 15, 2024, 10:59:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 15, 2024, 10:31:05 AM
    So, your version of Traditional Catholicism is refuted by "Traditional theologial principals," and to defend it you have to appeal to the "Conciliar/V2 religio, which you believe to be heretical?  O the irony.  What does that tell you about your versions of Traditional Catholicism?

    Last year, I witnessed Novus Ordo Watch get destroyed in a debate on Twitter. When the other guy pointed out that Mario Derksen of NO Watch belongs to a heretical sect, he defended himself by appearling to Vatican II!  The ecclesiology that he claims is heretical, is what he appeals to to justify his version of Traditional Catholicism.  What that proves is that his (and your) version of Traditional Catholicism is anything but Traditional.


    And for the record, I am not Josh Salza (or John Salza).
    I don't recall that debate, but I suspect that what Mario was referring to was that if you agree with Vatican II, then you shouldn't take issue with sedevacantists or any other stripe of Tradition (ie. non-Catholic sects in your view).  Because your religion teaches that non-Catholic sects are means of salvation. After all, the Catholic Church only subsists in the True Church of Christ according to Vatican II.
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #70 on: August 15, 2024, 11:04:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 15, 2024, 10:24:07 AM
    Two more valid question he needs to answer are 1) why he ends his letters with the Masonic ritual phrase "so mote it be" (e cosi sia in the original Italian), and 2) why he blapshemed Christ by calling him Sol Invictus, the false Roman sun god that the Masons to this day stll honor.

    I bet Vigano and his Lodge brothers have a good laugh at the number of Catholic he's duped at their monthly Lodge meetings.
    We've had long discussions about these two things.  Search for them. I'd do it for you, but to be quite honest, I don't think you're worth the effort.
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    Offline Emilio

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #71 on: August 15, 2024, 11:10:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 15, 2024, 10:31:05 AM
    So, your version of Traditional Catholicism is refuted by "Traditional theologial principals," and to defend it you have to appeal to the "Conciliar/V2 religio, which you believe to be heretical?  O the irony.  What does that tell you about your versions of Traditional Catholicism?

    ???????????
    Did you really read Lad's post and took from it that he is using V2 to defend his posture?????

    Really? Do yo have any reading comprehension?
    Salza is a V2 catholic, Salza holds that traditionalists are outside the church, V2 holds that traditionalists are inside the church. There is a problem with Salza's reasoning.

    How in the world did you manage to read "according to V2 I'm right" ??????????????

    Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 09:49:17 AM
    Just look at how many duped Catholics believed the Amozonian Catholics were worshipping Pachamama in the Vatican Gardens.  Some were so deceived that they still believe it.
    Wojtyla praying for the comming of the jew's messiah, with jews. Was I also dupped?
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    Online 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #72 on: August 15, 2024, 11:12:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 14, 2024, 05:10:21 AM
    Good post Gray.  Not off topic at all. I'd like to know Mr Wright's purpose here as well.  He seems to be avoiding that question. 

    And yes, the issue isn't the personal heresy of Bergoglio. It's always been V2.
    Speaking of questions that need to be answered:

    Still avoiding this question Mr Wright?  What is your purpose here?
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    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #73 on: August 15, 2024, 12:31:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 15, 2024, 10:54:59 AM
    One can be a heretic without explicitly or directly denying dogma. 

    Right, and they are called occult heretics.  No one except the Sedevacantist heretics of our day, think a pope who is an occult heretics loses his office.

    Any heresy that is not notorious is juridically occult; and none of the recent popes - including Francis - have been close to notorious heretics.


    Quote from: Pax Vobis on August 15, 2024, 10:54:59 AM
    Catholic common sense is able to reject these people even if the (fallible, limited) canon law must wait for (human) justice.  “The wheels of justice turn slowly” is a truism; this does not mean that such heretics cannot be “judged” in the public realm of catholic ideals.  In fact, they should be judged, avoided and repudiated as St Paul and St Bellarmine (and many others) tell us.

    But these people who your common sense tells you to reject, remain the legitimate Pastors of the Church, regardless of how sure you are that they are guilty of heresy.  Ponder that and let it sink in.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #74 on: August 15, 2024, 12:34:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 15, 2024, 12:31:21 PM
    No one except the Sedevacantist heretics of our day, think a pope who is an occult heretics loses his office.
    ...

    Yep, Salza ... spewing his garbage again.  Plus, you're also a slanderer, since I know of no SVs who hold that occult heretics lose office.  That's the one very minority opinion (of the 5) that I think was held by one or two theologians in the past few hundred years.
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