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Author Topic: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism  (Read 9140 times)

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Offline MiserereMei

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Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2024, 12:02:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on August 13, 2024, 10:11:13 AM
    Setting the bar rather low there...
    Agree. The "aren't nearly as bad" statement fits into one of the examples of what a liberal catholic would say, by Salvani in his book "Liberalism is a sin".
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    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #46 on: August 13, 2024, 12:12:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on August 13, 2024, 10:06:58 AM
    The game played by Francis and his minions, quite effectively if we look at what passes for Catholicism in some quarters, is plausible deniability.

    There will be no explicit and direct denial of dogma. Instead...

    Thank you.  That's why Francis and his minions aren't public heretics i.e., notorious heretics.  Notorious heresy is 1) heresy that has either been declared by the Church or confessed by the culprit in an ecclesiastical court (notoriety by law), or heresy that is "publicly known and committed under such circuмstances that no clever evasion is possible and no legal opinion could excuse" (notoriety of fact)."

    Maybe Francis an his minions are guilty of the sin of heresy, maybe they are not (God knows), but what is certain is that they are not notorious heretics (public heretics) since they never explicitly and directly deny any dogmas.  Therefore "clever evasion" is more than merely possible, and "legal opinion" can indeed excuse.

    It doesn't matter how certain a person is that Francis has fallen into interna heresy; if his heresy is not notorious with a notoriety of fact or law, his heresy has not severed the external juridical bond that is require to be a member of the Church.   


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    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #47 on: August 13, 2024, 12:20:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on August 13, 2024, 10:11:13 AM
    Setting the bar rather low there...

    I wasn't setting any bar low. I was simply pointing out that his writings aren't nearly as bad as they are portrayed to be.  Why did I point that out?  I pointed it out because we must judge things as they are, not better than they are, and not worse than they are, and anyone who forms his judgment based on what the spinsters in the Catholic media write, will form an excessively bad judgment about Francis that does not correspond to reality.  And based on that erroneous judgment, many more erroneous conclusons will follow.  
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #48 on: August 13, 2024, 12:32:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 12:12:00 PM
    Thank you. [...]   Therefore "clever evasion" is more than merely possible, and "legal opinion" can indeed excuse.

    It doesn't matter how certain a person is that Francis has fallen into interna heresy; if his heresy is not notorious with a notoriety of fact or law, his heresy has not severed the external juridical bond that is require to be a member of the Church. 

    Thank me? What I wrote was hardly an endorsement.

    And modernist legalists can spin/slice & dice all they want, but the traditional sensus fidei will still tell you that it leads to perdition.
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    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #49 on: August 13, 2024, 01:50:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on August 13, 2024, 12:32:44 PM
    Thank me? What I wrote was hardly an endorsement.

    I didn't take it as an endorsement.  But what your earlier statement (which was entirely true) confirmed is that Francis is not a "manifest heretc" (i.e., a notorious heretic) and therefore, according to Bellarmine, who the Sedes think confirms thier position, Francis would not have been ipso facto deposed; nor would he have been "invalid matter" to become Pope.



    Quote
    And modernist legalists can spin/slice & dice all they want, but the traditional sensus fidei will still tell you that it leads to perdition.

    Once again, we are in agreement.  
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #50 on: August 13, 2024, 02:14:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 01:50:57 PM
    Once again, we are in agreement. 

    Nope. That we ain't.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #51 on: August 13, 2024, 02:24:08 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 09:49:17 AM
    I would have agreed with you three years ago, since, at the time, like you, I had never bothered to read his sermons and writings. They aren't nearly as bad as the spinsters portray them to be.  Catholic Knight said Francis doesn't have a Catholic bone in his body.  That is refuted from the fact that he does indeed defend Catholic doctrines; maybe not the one's I would like him to defend, but he defends some of the very ones he is accused of denying.  In today's crisis in the Church, only a complete fool would believe anything negative about Pope Francis without verifying it for themselves.  The internet is saturated with lies - especially coming from the "Catholic" media - and people are obsorbing them constantly without any effort.  Just look at how many duped Catholics believed the Amozonian Catholics were worshipping Pachamama in the Vatican Gardens.  Some were so deceived that they still believe it.    In our day, the truth takes effort to discover, and it takes courage to accept. After all, you could be labeled a "Popesplainer" for simply defending the truth.
    Please explain, then why all of the traditional Masses associated with the NO have been pushed aside and suppressed?  What was Pope Francis actually trying to do?
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #52 on: August 13, 2024, 03:29:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on August 13, 2024, 02:24:08 PM
    Please explain, then why all of the traditional Masses associated with the NO have been pushed aside and suppressed?  What was Pope Francis actually trying to do?

    He hasn't suppressed all of them  There are two approved Traditional Masses in my area and neither has been suppressed.  But to your point, why is Francis restricting the Traditional Mass?  It could be because the majority of those who attend the Old Mass not only hate him and deny his legitimacy, but claim the Church over which he is the head is a false Church.  And that usually happens to those who begin attending the old Mass.  That could have something to do with why he is restricting it.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #53 on: August 13, 2024, 03:58:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 03:29:03 PM
    He hasn't suppressed all of them  There are two approved Traditional Masses in my area and neither has been suppressed.  But to your point, why is Francis restricting the Traditional Mass?  It could be because the majority of those who attend the Old Mass not only hate him and deny his legitimacy, but claim the Church over which he is the head is a false Church.  And that usually happens to those who begin attending the old Mass.  That could have something to do with why he is restricting it.
    Do you agree that Pope Francis should do this?

    If you do then, what is your purpose on a site that is obviously focusing on Catholics who do not report directly to Pope Francis?
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #54 on: August 13, 2024, 05:08:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on August 13, 2024, 03:58:49 PM
    Do you agree that Pope Francis should do this?

    If you do then, what is your purpose on a site that is obviously focusing on Catholics who do not report directly to Pope Francis?

    I didn't say I agree with him, but that's probably a big part of why he is suppressing the Traditional Mass.  I don't know any Catholic who reports directly to Francis. 
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    Offline Ekim

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #55 on: August 13, 2024, 06:15:19 PM »
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    • “…wait for the sentence that the Church will one day give, defining and resolving this question.”

    Hasn’t it defined its position already…resolved this question…over and over again…for decades???  To the point where Francis full throatedly condemns Tradition???  Sounds definitive to me!  The NO Church has lost the faith!
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #56 on: August 13, 2024, 09:43:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 05:08:02 PM
    I didn't say I agree with him, but that's probably a big part of why he is suppressing the Traditional Mass.  I don't know any Catholic who reports directly to Francis.
    By report to, I meant be in communion with.  Most of the people here attend churches that do not fall under the jurisdiction of Pope Francis. 

    If you think +GDL started a new religion, then did +Thuc and +Lefebvre?  

    Again what is your purpose for being here?  Are you wanting to convince all of us to go back to the TLM approved by Pope Francis?

    Have you read Gaudium et Spes?  It seems to be contrary to Catholicism.  It seems to make Catholicism a man centered religion.  This dumbing down of Catholicism is what most of us reject.  Since all the Popes after V2 hold to these writings, it seems like they are going against their predecessors and causing doubt for Truth.

    I am not very eloquent in explaining some of this stuff and I probably have gone off topic, but it is not just about Pope Francis being a heretic, it is about all the things that have gone wrong with Catholicism since Vatican 2.  The point is Vatican 2 taught heresy, something the Church can't do and all the popes after
    Vatican 2 so far have not corrected the errors.

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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #57 on: August 14, 2024, 05:06:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 13, 2024, 03:29:03 PM
    He hasn't suppressed all of them  There are two approved Traditional Masses in my area and neither has been suppressed.  But to your point, why is Francis restricting the Traditional Mass?  It could be because the majority of those who attend the Old Mass not only hate him and deny his legitimacy, but claim the Church over which he is the head is a false Church.  And that usually happens to those who begin attending the old Mass.  That could have something to do with why he is restricting it.
    Like all the conciliar popes, pope Francis is a flaming Liberal and a Modernist. Modernists hate all things traditionally Catholic - except for those things traditional that can be used against the faith and traditional Catholics. It has nothing whatsoever to do with getting revenge against those who love the True Mass, you're being ridiculous with this one. As a Modernist, he hates all that the Mass of all time represents and stands for, that's the reason he wants it gone, and that's the reason the new "mass" was perpetrated in the first place. It's that simple.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #58 on: August 14, 2024, 05:10:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on August 13, 2024, 09:43:39 PM
    By report to, I meant be in communion with.  Most of the people here attend churches that do not fall under the jurisdiction of Pope Francis. 

    If you think +GDL started a new religion, then did +Thuc and +Lefebvre? 

    Again what is your purpose for being here?  Are you wanting to convince all of us to go back to the TLM approved by Pope Francis?

    Have you read Gaudium et Spes?  It seems to be contrary to Catholicism.  It seems to make Catholicism a man centered religion.  This dumbing down of Catholicism is what most of us reject.  Since all the Popes after V2 hold to these writings, it seems like they are going against their predecessors and causing doubt for Truth.

    I am not very eloquent in explaining some of this stuff and I probably have gone off topic, but it is not just about Pope Francis being a heretic, it is about all the things that have gone wrong with Catholicism since Vatican 2.  The point is Vatican 2 taught heresy, something the Church can't do and all the popes after
    Vatican 2 so far have not corrected the errors.
    Good post Gray.  Not off topic at all. I'd like to know Mr Wright's purpose here as well.  He seems to be avoiding that question.  

    And yes, the issue isn't the personal heresy of Bergoglio. It's always been V2.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #59 on: August 14, 2024, 07:24:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on August 14, 2024, 05:10:21 AM
    Good post Gray.  Not off topic at all. I'd like to know Mr Wright's purpose here as well.  He seems to be avoiding that question. 

    I would not be surprised if "Mr. Wright" is Josh Salza, or at least agrees with Salza that those Traditionalist without "official" approval are schismatic.
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