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Author Topic: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism  (Read 9130 times)

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Offline Mr Wright

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Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2024, 11:57:28 AM »
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  • 1) It is the teaching of the Church through her Universal and Ordinary Magisterium, the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, and the unanimous teaching of the theologians that the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church. 

    COMMENT: That is an easy statement to make, but an impossible statement to prove.  But I will accept quotes from only 2 popes and 5 theologians who taugh that "the public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church."  I bet you can even quote one who uses the phrase "public sin of manifest formal heresy."  That phrase in itself is a post Vatican II novelty that was invented by Fr. Paul Kramer in the last decade.

    2) The public sin of manifest formal heresy occurs when one advertently and willingly denies or doubts a teaching of the Church that must be believed with Divine and Catholic Faith.

    Comment: I didn't ask for your definition of the novel phrase that Fr. Kramer invented.  I asked for an authoritative definition.  Still waiting. 

    3) It should be obvious that Jorge Bergoglio doesn't have a Catholic bone in his body.  Even semi-trads and those of the Novus Ordo acknowledge such. 

    Comment: He wakes up in 4:30am and does a holy hour for 2 hours.  He says Mass every day, AND HE DEFENDS CATHOLIC DOCTRINE CONSTANTLY.  If you deny that bolded part, it only proves that you are basing your judgment on him based on what other people are saying or short excepts you are reading, and not by reading what he writes and says on a weekly basis.  The reality is that Bergoglio is no worse than any of the other post-Vatican II popes.
     

    4) Garrigou-Lagrange was speaking about occult heresy.  Yes.  He did admit that occult heresy causes one to separate from the Church, but the more common opinion is that occult heresy does not cause one to separate from the Church.  Even so, we do not know his view of public heresy.  It could be that in regards to public heresy, because the separation would be visible, then the putative pope would fall from office. Think about it this way:  since no one (or a few) would know that a occult heretic pope ceased to be a member, Our Lord would retain him as pope until his heresy became public.  I am not saying that this is true.  I am just giving a potential explanation assuming that Garrigou-Lagrange was correct.  Nevertheless, the matter at hand is about public heresy and not occult heresy.

    Comment: To be precise, the distinction is not between occult heresy and public heresy; it is between occult heresy and notorious heresy.  Perhaps Francis is in occult herey, but he does not come close to be a notorious heretic; and no one who has taken the time to study the meaning of notorious heresy would deny it.  BTW, how much time have you spent studying the meaning of notorious heresy?

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #31 on: August 12, 2024, 12:12:20 PM »
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  • ".....AND HE DEFENDS CATHOLIC DOCTRINE CONSTANTLY. "

    This statement of yours says it all for me.  I will not bother continuing this conversation.


    Offline Emilio

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #32 on: August 12, 2024, 01:10:21 PM »
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  • How does the same code of canon law describe "public defection from the faith"?
    In a way that can be translated to apostasy in Spanish.
    This is the interpretation of Doctor Lorenzo Miguélez Domínguez, Dean of the Spanish Rota, Chancellor of the University of Salamanca and CIC professor of the same university, Doctor Marcelino Cabreros de Anta, C.M.F, CIC professor of the same university, and Doctor Sabino Alonso Morán, O.P., CIC professor of the same university.

    And this are real professors, not readers or lecturers.

    In fact, the "new" form used in the New Rite of Paul VI, is not only what Pope Clement (either the second or third Pope) said Christ himself gave as the form of episcopal consecration
    This is the first time I have heard that. Source?And I hope that the only words pronounced by Pope Clement in his rite of consecrating a bishop are the ones in Montini's form. Otherwise, who cares if the words of Montini's form are part of a bigger form used in the past?

    And if you ever take the time to apply the conditions for a valid form (given by Fr. Cekada)
    I'm affraid they were not given by Fr. Cekada (R.I.P.) but by Pius, by Divine Providence, Pope XII.
    Const. Apost. Sacramentum Ordinis (30 November 1947), DZ 2301. ¶4.

    “quibus univoce significantur effectus sacramentales — scilicet potestas Ordi
    nis et gratia Spiritus Sancti.”

    since the form found in the Traditional Rite does not even come close to meeting them.  For example, if the phrase "dew of heavenly anointing" does not clearly refer to the Holy Ghost, and in fact cannot have any other possible meaning than "the Holy Ghost," then the Traditional Rite of episcopal consecration is absolutely null and utterly void, according to Fr. Cekada.
    Oh, really? Pray tell, what authors have you read that used "dew of heavenly anointing" with another meaning?



    Offline Infirmus

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #33 on: August 12, 2024, 10:08:33 PM »
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  • https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/dom-vigan%C3%B2-dom-lefebvre-e-o-sedevacantismo

    Archbishop Vigano, Archbishop Lefebvre and Sedevacantism

    Archbishop Vigano behaved like a real hero from the moment he understood or began to understand the moral and doctrinal decomposition of the Conciliar Church. Unfortunately, he seems to be leaning towards the sedevacantist position. Time will better tell what is his true position.

    As for Archbishop Lefebvre, he initiated this fight against the Conciliar Church in more decisive circuмstances than the present ones. He won the confidence of the faithful from all over the world, by the solidity of his formation and the superiority of his prudence. His prudence made him avoid both the ralliement of the Ecclesia Dei communities and the error of Sedevacantism. With precision, he showed how Dom Gérard and others committed ѕυιcιdє by placing themselves under the authority of the Modernists, and how the Sedevacantists, in turn, placed themselves in a position as uncertain as it was dangerous, affirming more than the teachings of the Church allow us to affirm.

    Some think that Archbishop Lefebvre would be a Sedevacantist today. I do not think that this is the case. In fact, I believe the opposite. I believe that the arguments he made during his lifetime retain their force and relevance today. His arguments are simple. How would the Church be left if the Popes, from John XXIII to Francis, are not Popes? If the Cardinals they nominated are not Cardinals? Who will then elect the Pope? How can we have a Pope again? This seems to endanger the very existence of the Church. The best thing to do is to wait for the sentence that the Church will one day give, defining and resolving this question.

    Faced with the divergence of ideas and practical attitudes within Tradition, I see only one sensible line of conduct to follow: to preserve and transmit what we have received from Archbishop Lefebvre, both from the doctrinal and prudential point of view. But many will say: prudence takes into account the change in the situation between the state of the crisis in the time of Archbishop Lefebvre and the present time. Yes, there are some changes, but they are not essential. The essence of the crisis remains the same.

    Like in the Arian crisis, which lasted about 60 years, this crisis continues without changing in essential points. That is why the example of Archbishop Lefebvre is still valid.

    May Our Lady, who has overcome all heresies, obtain for us the grace to overcome the attacks of the Devil and the Modernists.

    Tomas Aquinas, OSB
    ;):popcorn:



    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #35 on: August 13, 2024, 08:06:11 AM »
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  • It doesn't look like Mr. Wright is a Trad of any stripe.  He appears to be a conciliarist.  I wonder how long he will last here.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #36 on: August 13, 2024, 08:40:01 AM »
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  • https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/dom-vigan%C3%B2-dom-lefebvre-e-o-sedevacantismo

    Archbishop Vigano, Archbishop Lefebvre and Sedevacantism

    Archbishop Vigano behaved like a real hero from the moment he understood or began to understand the moral and doctrinal decomposition of the Conciliar Church. Unfortunately, he seems to be leaning towards the sedevacantist position. Time will better tell what is his true position.

    As for Archbishop Lefebvre, he initiated this fight against the Conciliar Church in more decisive circuмstances than the present ones. He won the confidence of the faithful from all over the world, by the solidity of his formation and the superiority of his prudence. His prudence made him avoid both the ralliement of the Ecclesia Dei communities and the error of Sedevacantism. With precision, he showed how Dom Gérard and others committed ѕυιcιdє by placing themselves under the authority of the Modernists, and how the Sedevacantists, in turn, placed themselves in a position as uncertain as it was dangerous, affirming more than the teachings of the Church allow us to affirm.

    Some think that Archbishop Lefebvre would be a Sedevacantist today. I do not think that this is the case. In fact, I believe the opposite. I believe that the arguments he made during his lifetime retain their force and relevance today. His arguments are simple. How would the Church be left if the Popes, from John XXIII to Francis, are not Popes? If the Cardinals they nominated are not Cardinals? Who will then elect the Pope? How can we have a Pope again? This seems to endanger the very existence of the Church. The best thing to do is to wait for the sentence that the Church will one day give, defining and resolving this question.

    Faced with the divergence of ideas and practical attitudes within Tradition, I see only one sensible line of conduct to follow: to preserve and transmit what we have received from Archbishop Lefebvre, both from the doctrinal and prudential point of view. But many will say: prudence takes into account the change in the situation between the state of the crisis in the time of Archbishop Lefebvre and the present time. Yes, there are some changes, but they are not essential. The essence of the crisis remains the same.

    Like in the Arian crisis, which lasted about 60 years, this crisis continues without changing in essential points. That is why the example of Archbishop Lefebvre is still valid.

    May Our Lady, who has overcome all heresies, obtain for us the grace to overcome the attacks of the Devil and the Modernists.

    Tomas Aquinas, OSB

    Bp. Thomas Aquinas says above that Archbishop Lefebvre showed, with precision, how the sedevacantists placed themselves in a position as uncertain as it was dangerous, affirming more than the teachings of the Church allow us to affirm. This seems to be crucial, IMO, in that sedevacantists do affirm more than what the Church allows by interpreting doctrine in a way that it was not meant to be interpreted. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #37 on: August 13, 2024, 08:46:00 AM »
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  • It doesn't look like Mr. Wright is a Trad of any stripe.  He appears to be a conciliarist.  I wonder how long he will last here.

    I am a Traditional Catholic, through and through, and have been for many moons.  I am no newbie to Tradition.  The difference between myself, and someone like you who calls yourself a Traditional Catholic, is that I actually adhere to Tradition.  That's why, for example, I reject the New Religion founded by Gerard des Lauriers, which is based on two novel doctrines that he invented out of thin air.  Anyone who accepts his new Religion is a Traditional Catholic in name only.

    I also judge things as they actually are, not worse than they are and not better than they are, but as they are; and I don't rely on snippets I read online, or on what other people say, or on opinion polls, to form my judgments.  See the difference between us?


    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #38 on: August 13, 2024, 08:51:29 AM »
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  • https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/is-francis-the-pope-the-argument-from-public-heresy-suggests-not/

    Do you know who the author who calls himself Matthew McCusker actually is?  The writing style and even the quotes he uses give it away.  I'll give you a hint: he has been a pulic heretic or over 30 years.

    Even though you didn't provide an authoritative definition for "the public sin of formal manifest heresy" (a phrase invented by Fr. Paul Kramer), at least give a few examples of the alleged heresies that you believe Francis has taught.  Not what an Atheist journalist said Francis alledgely told him, but an explicit and direct denial of a dogma that requires the assent of Divine and Catholic Faith by Francis.  If you can't do so, then you are guilty of the public mortal sin of calumny. 



    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #39 on: August 13, 2024, 09:07:09 AM »
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  • https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/is-francis-the-pope-the-argument-from-public-heresy-suggests-not/

    I just skimmed through the article and it was exactly what I suspected.  To prove that Francis isn't the Pope, the public heretic who wrote the article ("Matthew McCusker") begins by arguing that public heretics are not members of the Church (which of course is true), but then fails to show that Francis is a public heretic. Instead of quoting an alleged heresy of Francis, he quotes what someone else said Amoris Laetitia teaches.  That's his proof.  Why not quote the Amoris Laetitia itself?  Because there is no heresy contained in it.  That's why. So, the author of the article you posted is guilty of the mortal sin of calumny.

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #40 on: August 13, 2024, 09:16:51 AM »
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  • From the article Catholic Knight linked to:

    "The only question that remains is whether this public heresy is something for which he is morally guilty, which would make him a formal public heretic, or something for which he is morally innocent, which would make him a material public heretic."

    Formal heresy has nothing to do with it.  A public heretic is not a member of the Church even if he is in good faith. This is proven from the fact that Protestants in good faith are not members of the Catholic Church.  And a Catholic who adheres to a heresy in good faith is not a public heretic, even if he has expressed the heresy in a manner that meets the canonical definition of public.  Public heretics are public non-Catholics, such as the author of the article; that is, those who have never been received into the Catholic by one who has the authority to do so, or one who has publicly defected from the Faith by joining or adhering to a no-Catholic sect. 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #41 on: August 13, 2024, 09:22:02 AM »
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  • I am a Traditional Catholic, through and through, and have been for many moons.  I am no newbie to Tradition.  The difference between myself, and someone like you who calls yourself a Traditional Catholic, is that I actually adhere to Tradition.  That's why, for example, I reject the New Religion founded by Gerard des Lauriers, which is based on two novel doctrines that he invented out of thin air.  Anyone who accepts his new Religion is a Traditional Catholic in name only.

    I also judge things as they actually are, not worse than they are and not better than they are, but as they are; and I don't rely on snippets I read online, or on what other people say, or on opinion polls, to form my judgments.  See the difference between us?
    Actually, I don't agree with the Cassiciacuм Thesis, but anyone who can say this about Bergoglio:

    He wakes up in 4:30am and does a holy hour for 2 hours.  He says Mass every day, AND HE DEFENDS CATHOLIC DOCTRINE CONSTANTLY. 

    is not a Traditional Catholic.  And I'm judging things as they actually are.  ;) 

    In any event, anyone who can say that doesn't belong on this forum.  But that's obviously Matthew's call.

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #42 on: August 13, 2024, 09:49:17 AM »
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  • Actually, I don't agree with the Cassiciacuм Thesis, but anyone who can say this about Bergoglio:

    He wakes up in 4:30am and does a holy hour for 2 hours.  He says Mass every day, AND HE DEFENDS CATHOLIC DOCTRINE CONSTANTLY. 

    is not a Traditional Catholic.  And I'm judging things as they actually are.  ;)

    I would have agreed with you three years ago, since, at the time, like you, I had never bothered to read his sermons and writings. They aren't nearly as bad as the spinsters portray them to be.  Catholic Knight said Francis doesn't have a Catholic bone in his body.  That is refuted from the fact that he does indeed defend Catholic doctrines; maybe not the one's I would like him to defend, but he defends some of the very ones he is accused of denying.  In today's crisis in the Church, only a complete fool would believe anything negative about Pope Francis without verifying it for themselves.  The internet is saturated with lies - especially coming from the "Catholic" media - and people are obsorbing them constantly without any effort.  Just look at how many duped Catholics believed the Amozonian Catholics were worshipping Pachamama in the Vatican Gardens.  Some were so deceived that they still believe it.    In our day, the truth takes effort to discover, and it takes courage to accept. After all, you could be labeled a "Popesplainer" for simply defending the truth.

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #43 on: August 13, 2024, 10:06:58 AM »
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  • at least give a few examples of the alleged heresies that you believe Francis has taught.  Not what an Atheist journalist said Francis alledgely told him, but an explicit and direct denial of a dogma that requires the assent of Divine and Catholic Faith by Francis.  If you can't do so, then you are guilty of the public mortal sin of calumny.

    The game played by Francis and his minions, quite effectively if we look at what passes for Catholicism in some quarters, is plausible deniability.

    There will be no explicit and direct denial of dogma. Instead, there has been and will continue to be a constant and purposeful muddle of implicit and indirect denials of not only dogma, but also the foundational basics of worship, natural law, common sense, and so on. It's the gaslighter's classic mode of stealth attack.

    The misled sheep who think that theology began with Ratzinger will surmise, "But Francis said it's OK and what we should do!" 
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #44 on: August 13, 2024, 10:11:13 AM »
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  • I would have agreed with you three years ago, since, at the time, like you, I had never bothered to read his sermons and writings. They aren't nearly as bad 

    Setting the bar rather low there...
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus