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Author Topic: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism  (Read 9121 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
« on: August 10, 2024, 11:36:52 PM »
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    • https://www.mosteirodasantacruz.org/post/dom-vigan%C3%B2-dom-lefebvre-e-o-sedevacantismo

    Archbishop Vigano, Archbishop Lefebvre and Sedevacantism

    Archbishop Vigano behaved like a real hero from the moment he understood or began to understand the moral and doctrinal decomposition of the Conciliar Church. Unfortunately, he seems to be leaning towards the sedevacantist position. Time will better tell what is his true position.

    As for Archbishop Lefebvre, he initiated this fight against the Conciliar Church in more decisive circuмstances than the present ones. He won the confidence of the faithful from all over the world, by the solidity of his formation and the superiority of his prudence. His prudence made him avoid both the ralliement  of the Ecclesia Dei communities and the error of Sedevacantism. With precision, he showed how Dom Gérard and others committed ѕυιcιdє by placing themselves under the authority of the Modernists, and how the Sedevacantists, in turn, placed themselves in a position as uncertain as it was dangerous, affirming more than the teachings of the Church allow us to affirm.

    Some think that Archbishop Lefebvre would be a Sedevacantist today. I do not think that this is the case. In fact, I believe the opposite. I believe that the arguments he made during his lifetime retain their force and relevance today. His arguments are simple. How would the Church be left if the Popes, from John XXIII to Francis, are not Popes? If the Cardinals they nominated are not Cardinals? Who will then elect the Pope? How can we have a Pope again? This seems to endanger the very existence of the Church. The best thing to do is to wait for the sentence that the Church will one day give, defining and resolving this question.

    Faced with the divergence of ideas and practical attitudes within Tradition, I see only one sensible line of conduct to follow: to preserve and transmit what we have received from Archbishop Lefebvre, both from the doctrinal and prudential point of view. But many will say: prudence takes into account the change in the situation between the state of the crisis in the time of Archbishop Lefebvre and the present time. Yes, there are some changes, but they are not essential. The essence of the crisis remains the same.

    Like in the Arian crisis, which lasted about 60 years, this crisis continues without changing in essential points. That is why the example of Archbishop Lefebvre is still valid.

    May Our Lady, who has overcome all heresies, obtain for us the grace to overcome the attacks of the Devil and the Modernists.

    Tomas Aquinas, OSB
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #1 on: August 11, 2024, 12:59:29 AM »
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    •                                              

                                                 
                                                                       Saint Bernard of Clairvaux


    But your Excellency, if the Seat is rightfully occupied, why was it that St. Bernard rallied a Catholic army to march on the Vatican in the year 1138 to oust the schismatic jew-pope, Anacletus II?  And only afterwards was the Holy See restored and the jew declared an anti-pope by the Church.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Online Gray2023

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #2 on: August 11, 2024, 05:24:55 AM »
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    • Just curious, but how should charity be applied to those who think differently?  And do you consider people who take on a different idea less Catholic?
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #3 on: August 11, 2024, 06:30:52 AM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on August 11, 2024, 12:59:29 AM
    But your Excellency, if the Seat is rightfully occupied, why was it that St. Bernard rallied a Catholic army to march on the Vatican in the year 1138 to oust the schismatic Jєω-pope, Anacletus II?  And only afterwards was the Holy See restored and the Jєω declared an anti-pope by the Church.
    For starters, there were two rival claimants to the Papacy in that instance, certainly no 'universal peaceful acceptance'. And as you rightly point out, Incredulous, it was only a decision of the Church after the death of Anacletus that gave us certainty, supporting Bishop Thomas Aquinas's statement that "the best thing to do is to wait for the sentence that the Church will one day give, defining and resolving this question".

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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #4 on: August 11, 2024, 06:46:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on August 11, 2024, 05:24:55 AM
    Just curious, but how should charity be applied to those who think differently?  And do you consider people who take on a different idea less Catholic?
    Good question, Gray. As I see it, Charity is always firm on principles but kind and gentle with souls, and I think Bishop Thomas Aquinas exemplifies that very well. We have to follow the Catholic principles as best we can while awaiting the restoration of the Papacy for a definitive judgement on these questions. In the meantime, I will follow the guides Providence gave us in Archbishop Lefebvre and his faithful successors, because I see in their teachings Catholic truth and common sense.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #5 on: August 11, 2024, 07:53:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on August 11, 2024, 06:30:52 AM
    For starters, there were two rival claimants to the Papacy in that instance, certainly no 'universal peaceful acceptance'. And as you rightly point out, Incredulous, it was only a decision of the Church after the death of Anacletus that gave us certainty, supporting Bishop Thomas Aquinas's statement that "the best thing to do is to wait for the sentence that the Church will one day give, defining and resolving this question".


    Moral certitude that Jorge Bergoglio is not pope can be achieved right now.
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    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #6 on: August 11, 2024, 07:14:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on August 11, 2024, 07:53:13 AM
    Moral certitude that Jorge Bergoglio is not pope can be achieved right now.

    Can you walk me through the steps you used to arrive at this moral certitude, or at least provide the syllogism?
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #7 on: August 11, 2024, 07:57:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 11, 2024, 07:14:29 PM
    Can you walk me through the steps you used to arrive at this moral certitude, or at least provide the syllogism?

    Newbie,

    How about this approach?

    Can you give us any examples of how the "occupant's" acts (referring to pope Francis) have demonstrated his intention to receive the papal Communication exercised by Christ ?

    Here's an excerpt and reference if you want more background for the question:

    "Obviously, the fealty of the person who agrees to be the elect of a valid Conclave must be presumed a priori. However, Leo XIII expressly declared (“Apostolicae Curae”, September 13, 1896; D.S. 3318): “The Church must judge intention in the way it is exteriorly manifested”. Did the “occupant” (of the Apostolic See), accepting the election of the Conclave, really have the intention to receive the Communication exercised by Christ? To answer this question we must, according to Leo XIII, consider the FACTS. If the “occupant” had, in reality, the intention to receive the above-mentioned Communication, then he should have AFTERWARDS, and HABITUALLY con-formed himself to all the exigencies of said Communication. If, on the contrary, it is ascertained that the “occupant” CONTINUOUSLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY acts against the most fundamental exigencies that are inherent to the Communication exercised by Christ, WE MUST CONCLUDE, (according to Leo XIII) that the “occupant” did not have, in reality, the intention to receive it, and that, in consequence, he never was [or he ceased to be] the Pope FORMALITER."

    https://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/interview-bishop-guerard/


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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #8 on: August 11, 2024, 08:35:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on August 11, 2024, 07:57:26 PM
    Newbie,

    How about this approach?

    Can you give us any examples of how the "occupant's" acts (referring to pope Francis) have demonstrated his intention to receive the papal Communication exercised by Christ?

    Before I answer that, can you show me where the Church has ever taught that a man must have the "interntion to receive the papal Communication exercised by Christ" to become pope? That sounds to me like a post-Vatican II novelty

    And then, please provide a definition of "the Papal Communication exercised by Christ" given in any magisterian docuмent or any approved theology or canonical manual, since I have absolutey no idea what that means.
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    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #9 on: August 11, 2024, 09:01:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on August 11, 2024, 07:57:26 PM
    Here's an excerpt and reference if you want more background for the question:

    "Obviously, the fealty of the person who agrees to be the elect of a valid Conclave must be presumed a priori. However, Leo XIII expressly declared (“Apostolicae Curae”, September 13, 1896; D.S. 3318): “The Church must judge intention in the way it is exteriorly manifested”. Did the “occupant” (of the Apostolic See), accepting the election of the Conclave, really have the intention to receive the Communication exercised by Christ? To answer this question we must, according to Leo XIII, consider the FACTS. If the “occupant” had, in reality, the intention to receive the above-mentioned Communication, then he should have AFTERWARDS, and HABITUALLY con-formed himself to all the exigencies of said Communication. If, on the contrary, it is ascertained that the “occupant” CONTINUOUSLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY acts against the most fundamental exigencies that are inherent to the Communication exercised by Christ, WE MUST CONCLUDE, (according to Leo XIII) that the “occupant” did not have, in reality, the intention to receive it, and that, in consequence, he never was [or he ceased to be] the Pope FORMALITER."

    https://www.sodalitiumpianum.com/interview-bishop-guerard/

    While I'm waiting for you to reply to my last post, I will comment on the errors in the quote above that you provided.

    Leo III was referring to the intention that is required for a minister to validly confer a sacrament. Receiving the papal is not a sacrament. Hence, this is apples and oranges.

    It is true that the man elected must have the intention of accepting the office that he was elected to fill.  This inention is manisted externally during the council by his acceptance.  Francis evidently manifested this intention by accepting the election or he would not have been presented to the world as the Pope by the Protodeacon.

    The quote you provided says the person must manifest the intention "to receive he communication exercised bu Christ" (bu which he must mean jurisdiction, which the newly elected Pope receives from Christ) by "AFTEERWARDS and HABITUALLY confrming himself to all said Communications."  In other words, he must be impeccable in exercizing the office of Pope.

    Sorry, but this is erroneous reasoning, to say the least.  The newly elected Pope manifests his intention to receive the papacy when he says "I accept" during the conclave.   If, as the confused author you quoted believes, a man who is validly elected pope by a conclave must manifest his intention to receive the office "by habitually conforming himself to all said Communications," ther would be no way of knowing if he is a true pope until he dies, since prior to that, he could aways fail "to conform himself to all said Communications," and thereby manifest that he never had the requisite intenton to accept the office.  
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #10 on: August 11, 2024, 09:29:00 PM »
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    • Newbie,

    Why is this question a problem?   

    Can you give us any examples of how the "occupant's" acts (referring to pope Francis) have demonstrated his intention to receive the papal Communication exercised by Christ?

    If he received the papal Communication exercised by Christ, you should be able to give us some examples where pope Francis has acted as Popes previous to 1958 have acted.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Mr Wright

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #11 on: August 11, 2024, 10:00:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on August 11, 2024, 09:29:00 PM
    Newbie,

    Why is this question a problem? 

    Can you give us any examples of how the "occupant's" acts (referring to pope Francis) have demonstrated his intention to receive the papal Communication exercised by Christ?

    If he received the papal Communication exercised by Christ, you should be able to give us some examples where pope Francis has acted as Popes previous to 1958 have acted.

    You need to provide the definition of "the papal Communication exercised by Christ."  After all, how we discuss it if we don't know what it means? And please provide an authoritative definition as found in a magisterial docuмent of approved manual (good luck). 

    Regarding Francis acting as Pope, he has published encyclicals and and appointed bishops.  Those are two examples of Francis acting as Pope.  But more importantly, he is accepted as Pope by every diocese that is in union with the local church of Rome, which provides infallible certitude that he is indeed a legitimate Pope. 
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    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #12 on: August 11, 2024, 11:23:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 11, 2024, 10:00:01 PM
    You need to provide the definition of "the papal Communication exercised by Christ."  After all, how we discuss it if we don't know what it means? And please provide an authoritative definition as found in a magisterial docuмent of approved manual (good luck).

    Regarding Francis acting as Pope, he has published encyclicals and and appointed bishops.  Those are two examples of Francis acting as Pope.  But more importantly, he is accepted as Pope by every diocese that is in union with the local church of Rome, which provides infallible certitude that he is indeed a legitimate Pope.
    I am the one who downvoted you twice, because I find it ridiculous how quickly trads and armchair theologians dismiss everything Bp. Guerard des Lauriers (look up his CV) wrote and thought about beyond the Ottaviani Intervention. In particular, people like to sweep under the carpet his sedevacantism/sedeprivationism and strong rejection of attendance at "una cuм" masses.

    Anyway, I attached the Cahiers de Cassiciacuм volume 1 where you might find the definition of "papal communication exercised by Christ". IIRC, it is defined in terms of what Bp. GdL likes to call "être avec" ("to be with [Jesus Christ]"), which is derived by symmetry from that which Our Lord said: "I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world" (St. Matthew XXVIII, 20).

    Honestly, I'm not interested in this discussion. You either take or leave what Bp. GdL says in the interview posted above and in the material that I attached. I just had to stick my head out after downvoting you, lest you thought that it was Incredulous.

    Ave María Purísima
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    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #13 on: August 12, 2024, 06:36:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on August 10, 2024, 11:36:52 PM
    Archbishop Vigano behaved like a real hero from the moment he understood or began to understand the moral and doctrinal decomposition of the Conciliar Church. Unfortunately, he seems to be leaning towards the sedevacantist position. Time will better tell what is his true position.
    Doesn't appear that way to me, so far.  Sedes don't give interviews (written or otherwise) with Taylor Marshall/LifeSite.
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Bishop Thomas Aquinas: +Vigano, +Lefebvre and Sedevacantism
    « Reply #14 on: August 12, 2024, 06:40:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mr Wright on August 11, 2024, 07:14:29 PM
    Can you walk me through the steps you used to arrive at this moral certitude, or at least provide the syllogism?

    The public sin of manifest formal heresy by its very nature separates the heretic from the Church. (Divine and Catholic Faith)
    But Jorge Bergoglio has committed the public sin of manifest formal heresy. (Moral Certitude)
    Therefore, Jorge Bergoglio is separated from the Church. (Moral Certitude)
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