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Author Topic: Bishop Pfeiffer  (Read 30777 times)

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Offline donkath

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Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
« Reply #420 on: October 21, 2020, 09:17:31 AM »
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  • By definition, doubt means that you MAY (OR MAY NOT) be receiving the Sacraments.  If you are convinced that they are positively invalid, then you personally would not consider them doubtful.  I hold them to be doubtful rather than certainly invalid ... based on the possibility that there was a legitimate conditional consecration afterward.

    If you consider them to be certainly invalid, then there would obviously be no point in receiving them even in danger of death.

    Let's say that I currently feel that there's a 50-50 chance that +?Pfeiffer priests are valid.  If I'm on the point of death and have no other option, it's OK to roll the dice on this and hope that they are in fact valid.  Under ordinary circuмstances, however, that kind of dice-rolling is forbidden.  Let's say I was in a state or mortal sin, was dying, grabbed a +?Pfeiffer priest, and made a confession.  Now let's say I recover miraculously.  Since I considered it doubtful, I would have to go to Confession again, explaining the circuмstances, before I could go to Holy Communion again.  Now, if I'm in danger of death, and make this Confession, then I could receive Communion from the same Pfeiffer priest because, if the Communion is valid, then so was the Confession, and vice versa.


    I follow that.  Thank you.
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."


    Offline donkath

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #421 on: October 21, 2020, 09:22:22 AM »
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  • Same applies when a person ostensibly seeks baptism into the Catholic Church, but he dies before he receives the necessary baptism of water and Spirit. "Desire" alone doesn't constitute a baptism. God knows the hearts of all men, and if a person sincerely seeks baptism into the Church, God will send him a valid priest for baptism even if he lives in the most obscure location and difficult environment.

    This is exactly what I was thinking.  God is not going to abandon a person aiming only to keep the true faith.  
    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."


    Offline Kirsten

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #422 on: October 21, 2020, 10:15:13 AM »
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  • I still have three issues:

    1. The “I read it somewhere” line is devoid of any context or setting. Was it read accurately or fully understood? Was it just a theological opinion (even a minority one) or explicitly declared by the Church?

    2. What is the logical conclusion of this? The Last Rites from an Anglican vicar? Yes, Leo XIII declared their orders invalid, but that was before they sort ordinations from the ‘Old Catholics’.

    3. “I hold them to be doubtful rather than certainly invalid ... based on the possibility that there was a legitimate conditional consecration afterward.” This is nothing more than a negative doubt (which is to be despised).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #423 on: October 21, 2020, 10:21:52 AM »
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  • I still have three issues:

    1. The “I read it somewhere” line is devoid of any context or setting. Was it read accurately or fully understood? Was it just a theological opinion (even a minority one) or explicitly declared by the Church?

    2. What is the logical conclusion of this? The Last Rites from an Anglican vicar? Yes, Leo XIII declared their orders invalid, but that was before they sort ordinations from the ‘Old Catholics’.

    3. “I hold them to be doubtful rather than certainly invalid ... based on the possibility that there was a legitimate conditional consecration afterward.” This is nothing more than a negative doubt (which is to be despised).

    I'll try to find sources.  They have been cited here before.

    No, this is not negative doubt.  It's POSTIIVE doubt, since there are concrete reasons for the doubt, i.e. the botched consecration attempt ... captured on video.  Negative doubt resolves in the practical order to moral certainty with regard to the Sacraments, whereas positive doubt does not and is distinct from certainty.  You make a gratuitous assertion regarding the nature of the doubt, implying that if one is not certain that they are invalid, then that's the same as negative doubt.  It is not.  Similarly, I am not certain that the NOM is invalid under all circuмstances, but I do hold that there's positive doubt due to the concrete, specific, and credible arguments made against it.

    Offline Kirsten

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #424 on: October 21, 2020, 10:57:17 AM »
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  • I'll try to find sources.  They have been cited here before.

    No, this is not negative doubt.  It's POSTIIVE doubt, since there are concrete reasons for the doubt, i.e. the botched consecration attempt ... captured on video.  Negative doubt resolves in the practical order to moral certainty with regard to the Sacraments, whereas positive doubt does not and is distinct from certainty.  You make a gratuitous assertion regarding the nature of the doubt, implying that if one is not certain that they are invalid, then that's the same as negative doubt.  It is not.  Similarly, I am not certain that the NOM is invalid under all circuмstances, but I do hold that there's positive doubt due to the concrete, specific, and credible arguments made against it.

    Yes it is negative doubt. You may have positive doubt regarding the ‘botched’ consecration, but you want to extend this to the conditional consecration too. Following this line one could extend this “positive doubt” to any subsequent consecrations by Bishop Webster (or, indeed, antecedent ones).




    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #425 on: October 21, 2020, 11:19:19 AM »
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  • Same applies when a person ostensibly seeks baptism into the Catholic Church, but he dies before he receives the necessary baptism of water and Spirit. "Desire" alone doesn't constitute a baptism. God knows the hearts of all men, and if a person sincerely seeks baptism into the Church, God will send him a valid priest for baptism even if he lives in the most obscure location and difficult environment.

    Yep!  Even if he was a poor, lonely Jєω drowning in the ocean.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #426 on: October 21, 2020, 11:24:28 AM »
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  • I think that if you find yourself with only a "bishop" Pfeiffer priest available at your death, then your salvation is already in serious doubt -- it would suggest that God has begun punishing you and signaling that you weren't a very good guy.

    Divine Providence includes justice.


    There’s an old story about Voltaire, who spent most of his life attacking the Catholic Church.

    As he was dying he requested a priest, but his disciples wouldn’t allow it.  

    They moved him to the countryside where he died a horrorful death, without the Sacraments.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #427 on: October 21, 2020, 12:56:45 PM »
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  • Yes it is negative doubt. You may have positive doubt regarding the ‘botched’ consecration, but you want to extend this to the conditional consecration too. Following this line one could extend this “positive doubt” to any subsequent consecrations by Bishop Webster (or, indeed, antecedent ones).

    It easily extends to the conditional.  Father Pfeiffer went on and on about how the first one was valid, which immediately makes his judgment on the issue questionable.  So if all we have to go on is his personal assertion that the second one was valid, he no longer has credibility.  We actually have no proof that the second one even took place as alleged.  Father Pfeiffer has lost credibility as a witness due to his behavior over the years, including his persistence that this Ambrose character was a valid bishop despite all the evidence to the contrary that was put to him.  He's shown that he simply wants to believe everything is valid because he wanted to become a bishop.  That is plenty concrete.  It's not in the realm of "what if [any given unknown] priest at the altar botched the words of consecration."  All it takes to render doubt positive is a rational credible POSITIVE reason (something you can point to) rather than a "what if?".  This is well beyond the realm of what if.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #428 on: October 21, 2020, 12:59:37 PM »
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  • Yes it is negative doubt. You may have positive doubt regarding the ‘botched’ consecration, but you want to extend this to the conditional consecration too. Following this line one could extend this “positive doubt” to any subsequent consecrations by Bishop Webster (or, indeed, antecedent ones).

    Oh, and BTW, yes, I think there's reason to doubt any Sacraments confected by Bishop Webster based on how badly confused he was by the Latin.  This wasn't just a one-off slip of the tongue here, like a priest who normally gets it right might slur his words on one occasion, but it clearly manifests confusion and lack of understanding of the Latin.  That does in fact render the Sacraments confected by Bishop Webster positively doubtful.  What we saw concretely on the video demonstrates confusion and lack of comprehension, and there's no reason to believe that it was a one off (like he was just tired that day).

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #429 on: October 21, 2020, 01:10:15 PM »
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  • It easily extends to the conditional.  Father Pfeiffer went on and on about how the first one was valid, which immediately makes his judgment on the issue questionable.  So if all we have to go on is his personal assertion that the second one was valid, he no longer has credibility.  We actually have no proof that the second one even took place as alleged.  Father Pfeiffer has lost credibility as a witness due to his behavior over the years, including his persistence that this Ambrose character was a valid bishop despite all the evidence to the contrary that was put to him.  He's shown that he simply wants to believe everything is valid because he wanted to become a bishop.  That is plenty concrete.  It's not in the realm of "what if [any given unknown] priest at the altar botched the words of consecration."  All it takes to render doubt positive is a rational credible POSITIVE reason (something you can point to) rather than a "what if?".  This is well beyond the realm of what if.
    When has anyone needed "proof" a consecration took place? The fact that the priesthood is intact through Thuc, and that Aquinas addresses the fumbling of the words Bishop Webster butchered,  the burden of proof remains on those who express doubt about the consecration who have nothing except their doubt about Pfeiffer's person, which as far as I can see, is insufficient to negate the orders. Canon law even favors Pfeiffer's mind as to whether or not there was necessity to consecrate another bishop.  

    Offline Kirsten

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #430 on: October 21, 2020, 01:28:11 PM »
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  • It easily extends to the conditional.  Father Pfeiffer went on and on about how the first one was valid, which immediately makes his judgment on the issue questionable.  So if all we have to go on is his personal assertion that the second one was valid, he no longer has credibility.  We actually have no proof that the second one even took place as alleged.  Father Pfeiffer has lost credibility as a witness due to his behavior over the years, including his persistence that this Ambrose character was a valid bishop despite all the evidence to the contrary that was put to him.  He's shown that he simply wants to believe everything is valid because he wanted to become a bishop.  That is plenty concrete.  It's not in the realm of "what if [any given unknown] priest at the altar botched the words of consecration."  All it takes to render doubt positive is a rational credible POSITIVE reason (something you can point to) rather than a "what if?".  This is well beyond the realm of what if.

    This is nothing more than an ad hominem

    At the end of the day your doubt boils down to this: “he messed up the first consecration so he may well have messed up the second” - that’s a negative doubt.
     


    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #431 on: October 21, 2020, 03:07:51 PM »
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  • This is nothing more than an ad hominem.

    At the end of the day your doubt boils down to this: “he messed up the first consecration so he may well have messed up the second” - that’s a negative doubt.


    No, I agree with Lad that's a positive doubt- a doubt based on a reason. Doubting a sacrament because "something might have been done wrong but I have no particular reason to believe anything specific was done wrong" is a negative doubt. Here, there are specific reasons to doubt, including the minister's facility with Latin as demonstrated that day or the day before.

    Now, a positive doubt is not necessarily a valid doubt just because it is based on some reasons. Contrary reasons or evidence are also considered. For example, omission of words ("mystery of faith") may be a reason for a positive doubt about the NO consecration, but it's not necessarily a valid reason for positive doubt when its role in the form is considered.

    Offline Kirsten

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #432 on: October 21, 2020, 04:15:08 PM »
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  • No, I agree with Lad that's a positive doubt- a doubt based on a reason. Doubting a sacrament because "something might have been done wrong but I have no particular reason to believe anything specific was done wrong" is a negative doubt. Here, there are specific reasons to doubt, including the minister's facility with Latin as demonstrated that day or the day before.

    Now, a positive doubt is not necessarily a valid doubt just because it is based on some reasons. Contrary reasons or evidence are also considered. For example, omission of words ("mystery of faith") may be a reason for a positive doubt about the NO consecration, but it's not necessarily a valid reason for positive doubt when its role in the form is considered.
    No, it’s a negative doubt, but there’s an attempt here to puff it up and turn it into something it is not.

    Ladislaus said: “there are concrete reasons for the doubt, i.e. the botched consecration attempt ... captured on video.
    But this concerns the first attempt, to use this as an argument to doubt the second attempt is a negative doubt.

    Ladislaus said: “Pfeiffer’s credibility has been shot, so I for one can’t simply take his word for it that it was done and was done correctly.” To essentially call Bishop Pfeiffer a liar and then use this to doubt the second attempt is a negative doubt.

    Ladislaus said: “it is possible that Bishop Webster got it close enough to be valid on the second try.
    How could he even get “close” when it is also claimed:
    This wasn't just a one-off slip of the tongue here, like a priest who normally gets it right might slur his words on one occasion, but it clearly manifests confusion and lack of understanding of the Latin.
    So, now, because of the challenge, the goal posts get moved. This is a negative doubt.

    Ladislaus said: “We actually have no proof that the second one even took place as alleged.
    Why, because it can’t be viewed on YouTube? What about Bishop Williamson’s consecration of Bishop Aquinas? But there are witnesses in both cases, it’s just that the Kentucky ones cannot be trusted. This is a negative doubt.

    And let’s not forget the rationale that second time around everyone would have been listening attentively to ensure the formula was pronounced correctly (the argument that the Kentucky seminarians are lackadaisical and can’t be trusted is also a negative doubt).

    Offline IllyricumSacrum

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #433 on: October 21, 2020, 09:35:14 PM »
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  • It was more than just the words that caused the doubt, here is what Ladislaus reported on page 3 of this thread:

    I'm not one who holds the Thuc line to be doubtful, but Bishop Webster's line has some issues due to one Jean Laborie.

    Bishop Webster was consecrated a bishop by Bishop Slupski (I don't believe there are any doubts about his line).

    But he had been ordained to the priesthood by Bishop Timothy Henneberry.

    Henneberry, in turn, had been ordained to the priesthood by Bishop Carmona (no issue for me) and was consecrated a bishop by a Bishop Terrasson.

    Terrasson had been consecrated by Clemente Dominguez Gomez (of Palmar fame).  Apart from the fact that Gomez had no training and could easily have botched the Rite of Episcopal Consecration, this was likely valid ...

    except, and here's the problem

    Terrasson had been ordained a priest by in 1974 by Jean Laborie.

    But in 1977 Bishop Thuc CONDITIONALLY consecrated Laborie.  There's no record of who ordained Laborie, but his pre-1977 consecrationS (plural) went as follows ...

    [Laborie] had already been consecrated a bishop on 10/02/1966 at xxxxx by Jean Pierre Danyel, a bishop of the Sainte Église Celtique. Later he was consecrated sub conditione a bishop on 08/20/1968 at xxxxx by Louis Jean Stanislaus Canivet, a bishop known as "Patriarch Aloysius Basilius III" of the Patriarchate Orthodoxe de l'Europe Latine.

    So his status in 1974 when he ordained Terrasson to the priesthood was one of clear positive doubt.  So much so, that in 1977, Bishop Thuc consecrated Laborie conditionally.

    NOW ... there's an allegation that Terrasson had been conditionally ordained at some point before his consecration by Clemente.  But I've seen no proof for this whatsover.  It is not even so much as listed on the Boyle site.

    So unless there's docuмentation/proof that Terrasson had been conditionally ordained before his consecration, the whole line is in doubt.

    Consequently, we have to hold there to be positive doubt regarding the validity of Bishop Pfeiffer.
    Bishop Webster was conditionally ordained by Bishop Slupski the day before his consecration, fyi.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #434 on: October 21, 2020, 11:09:37 PM »
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  • Quote
    I'll try to find sources.  They have been cited here before.

    No, this is not negative doubt.  It's POSTIIVE doubt, since there are concrete reasons for the doubt, i.e. the botched consecration attempt ... captured on video.  Negative doubt resolves in the practical order to moral certainty with regard to the Sacraments, whereas positive doubt does not and is distinct from certainty.  You make a gratuitous assertion regarding the nature of the doubt, implying that if one is not certain that they are invalid, then that's the same as negative doubt.  It is not.  Similarly, I am not certain that the NOM is invalid under all circuмstances, but I do hold that there's positive doubt due to the concrete, specific, and credible arguments made against it.

    Good points, Lad.

    We have ourselves a Pfeifferite apologist here (Kirsten) so everyone beware -- take "her" posts with a huge grain of salt, or more like a salt lick.

    And for that matter, don't get any plaques, statues, or other physical objects made that speak about the CathInfo member "Kirsten". I have a feeling this member will be short-lived on the forum.
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