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Author Topic: Bishop Pfeiffer  (Read 30753 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
« Reply #405 on: October 18, 2020, 05:04:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: donkath on October 17, 2020, 09:30:02 PM
    Emphasis above is mine.

    This is why I asked the qestion.   How can Ladislaus say that he would receive the sacraments from a 'priest' ordained by 'Bp.' Pfeiffer?  Does not make sense especially when Ladislaus has gone to so much trouble  to show that Fr. Pfeiffer is no Bishop??????

    I would not consider them certainly invalid but doubtful.  While I would agree with +Sanborn that the first attempt was invalid, it is possible that Bishop Webster got it close enough to be valid on the second try.  I also do not believe that Terrasson was certainly invalid as there is some evidence of a conditional ordination.
    So +?Pfeiffer priests, IMO, are in the doubtful category.  In danger of death, if you have no certainly-valid option, one may avail oneself of doubtful Sacraments.  Other than that scenario, doubtful priests are to be treated as invalid.  I hope this clears it up.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #406 on: October 18, 2020, 05:09:15 AM »
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    • It clears up what you mean Ladislaus. :)
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #407 on: October 18, 2020, 05:51:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on October 17, 2020, 08:42:35 PM
    U R.  A priest cannot ordain another priest.  Only a bishop can ordain a priest. 
    But this, from Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.

    Note that Ott says a papal mandate would be necessary for validity.  Clearly that isn't the case here.

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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #408 on: October 18, 2020, 06:40:51 AM »
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    • Yet another sign an usurper is in the Seat.

    Although it was a highly political gesture, Bp. Fellay persuaded Pope Benedict XVI to defrock Fr. Vanderputin.

    If Francis and the neoSSPX were real Bishup Pfeiffer would be defrocked and an interdict would be placed on Pfeifferville.

    But to the contrary, it seems the Pfeiffer/Pablo apostolate meets the political convenience of both Francis and the neoSSPX.
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    Offline AJNC

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #409 on: October 19, 2020, 06:27:17 AM »
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    • Quote from: RevolveBooks on October 17, 2020, 12:37:36 PM
    If Pfeiffer is a true bishop then must he cease to wear the white cassock and shave his whiskers because he is no longer a missionary priest of Asia but a bishop of Kentucky? And certainly needs to stop saying that +Fellay is his superior.

    Photographic evidence shows he still sports both.  Just wondering.
    There have not been missionary priests in places like India, the Philippines, East, West and South Africa for decades. All these places are now major exporters of priests to the West and have been so since the 1970s.
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    Offline Kirsten

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #410 on: October 20, 2020, 09:58:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 18, 2020, 05:04:53 AM
    In danger of death, if you have no certainly-valid option, one may avail oneself of doubtful Sacraments.  Other than that scenario, doubtful priests are to be treated as invalid.  I hope this clears it up.
    Do you have a source for this? Would that not mean you could approach an ‘Old Catholic’ priest (in danger of death)?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #411 on: October 20, 2020, 03:16:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Kirsten on October 20, 2020, 09:58:30 AM
    Do you have a source for this? Would that not mean you could approach an ‘Old Catholic’ priest (in danger of death)?

    Here are the principles:

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #412 on: October 20, 2020, 05:19:27 PM »
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    • Why doesn't the local priest or bishop issue a statement about Pfeiffer?
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    Offline Kirsten

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #413 on: October 21, 2020, 07:05:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 20, 2020, 03:16:16 PM
    Here are the principles:

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm
    Thank you for the link. I’m assuming the relevant part is this:

    “St. Alphonsus writes that even: ...the excommunicated vitandus, if he can validly administer the sacraments, is bound to administer them in danger of death on account of divine and natural precept to which the human precept of the Church would not be able to oppose itself.”

    However, this does not question the validity of the priest. A priest may be lacking the faculty of confession or the power to confirm, but the Church will supply both where there is a danger of death.

    Similarly, a suspended priest’s censure (which extends to Orthodox priests since their powers of order are valid) does not prevent him from ministering the sacraments in such circuмstances. I’m not seeing anything that suggests one can approach a doubtfully ordained priest.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #414 on: October 21, 2020, 07:47:40 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on October 20, 2020, 03:16:16 PM
    Here are the principles:

    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_July/The_1988_Consecrations.htm

    That's not the question she's asking.

    No, I do not have a source at hand for this, but have read it over the years in various theological manuals, that one may receive doubtful Sacraments in danger of death ... if that's all you can get.
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    Offline donkath

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #415 on: October 21, 2020, 08:36:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 21, 2020, 07:47:40 AM
    That's not the question she's asking.

    No, I do not have a source at hand for this, but have read it over the years in various theological manuals, that one may receive doubtful Sacraments in danger of death ... if that's all you can get.
    I understand Ladislaus that a source may not be readily at hand but if a doubt is genuinely established - which is what has been ably demonstrated in this discussion - then that means, for me at least, that I do not believe I would be receiving the Sacraments from a priest 'ordained' by 'Bishop' Pfeiffer even if I am dying.  In short, I would see it as a kind of sacrilege.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #416 on: October 21, 2020, 08:54:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: donkath on October 21, 2020, 08:36:16 AM
    I understand Ladislaus that a source may not be readily at hand but if a doubt is genuinely established - which is what has been ably demonstrated in this discussion - then that means, for me at least, that I do not believe I would be receiving the Sacraments from a priest 'ordained' by 'Bishop' Pfeiffer even if I am dying.  In short, I would see it as a kind of sacrilege.

    By definition, doubt means that you MAY (OR MAY NOT) be receiving the Sacraments.  If you are convinced that they are positively invalid, then you personally would not consider them doubtful.  I hold them to be doubtful rather than certainly invalid ... based on the possibility that there was a legitimate conditional consecration afterward.

    If you consider them to be certainly invalid, then there would obviously be no point in receiving them even in danger of death.

    Let's say that I currently feel that there's a 50-50 chance that +?Pfeiffer priests are valid.  If I'm on the point of death and have no other option, it's OK to roll the dice on this and hope that they are in fact valid.  Under ordinary circuмstances, however, that kind of dice-rolling is forbidden.  Let's say I was in a state or mortal sin, was dying, grabbed a +?Pfeiffer priest, and made a confession.  Now let's say I recover miraculously.  Since I considered it doubtful, I would have to go to Confession again, explaining the circuмstances, before I could go to Holy Communion again.  Now, if I'm in danger of death, and make this Confession, then I could receive Communion from the same Pfeiffer priest because, if the Communion is valid, then so was the Confession, and vice versa.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #417 on: October 21, 2020, 08:57:14 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 21, 2020, 08:54:15 AM
    By definition, doubt means that you MAY (OR MAY NOT) be receiving the Sacraments.  If you are convinced that they are positively invalid, then you personally would not consider them doubtful.  I hold them to be doubtful rather than certainly invalid ... based on the possibility that there was a legitimate conditional consecration afterward.

    If you consider them to be certainly invalid, then there would obviously be no point in receiving them even in danger of death.
    I think that if you find yourself with only a "bishop" Pfeiffer priest available at your death, then your salvation is already in serious doubt -- it would suggest that God has begun punishing you and signaling that you weren't a very good guy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #418 on: October 21, 2020, 09:00:00 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on October 21, 2020, 08:57:14 AM
    I think that if you find yourself with only a "bishop" Pfeiffer priest available at your death, then your salvation is already in serious doubt -- it would suggest that God has begun punishing you and signaling that you weren't a very good guy.

    :laugh1:

    Or, conversely, let's say I've made my First Fridays, one of the promises being to receive the last Sacraments, in that case,  I would be comforted at death believing with moral certainty that the priest was valid after all.
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    Offline Tourmalet

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #419 on: October 21, 2020, 09:13:25 AM »
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    •  
    Quote
    I think that if you find yourself with only a "bishop" Pfeiffer priest available at your death, then your salvation is already in serious doubt -- it would suggest that God has begun punishing you and signaling that you weren't a very good guy.

    Same applies when a person ostensibly seeks baptism into the Catholic Church, but he dies before he receives the necessary baptism of water and Spirit. "Desire" alone doesn't constitute a baptism. God knows the hearts of all men, and if a person sincerely seeks baptism into the Church, God will send him a valid priest for baptism even if he lives in the most obscure location and difficult environment.
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