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Author Topic: Bishop Pfeiffer  (Read 30924 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
« Reply #360 on: August 20, 2020, 11:43:29 AM »
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  • It is simply not possible for the Pope to grant a power to someone who does not have it by power of Orders.  Never could a pope grant permission for a Deacon to offer Mass, or for a layman to absolve someone from their sins.  As these theological sources from your own link amply demonstrate, the power must be there in the priestly character, albeit in a latent manner.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #361 on: August 20, 2020, 11:47:10 AM »
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  • What are you babbling about?  I literally just cited two of the first three sources on that link and they say the OPPOSITE of what you claim.
    .
    Have a little sense, Ladislaus.  I am the one who did this research, published it, and organized it in the order you are reading it.  That's background information, keep reading and then come up with an argument.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #362 on: August 20, 2020, 12:20:19 PM »
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  • It is simply not possible for the Pope to grant a power to someone who does not have it by power of Orders.  Never could a pope grant permission for a Deacon to offer Mass, or for a layman to absolve someone from their sins.  As these theological sources from your own link amply demonstrate, the power must be there in the priestly character, albeit in a latent manner.
    .
    Yeah, exactly-- literally what I've been saying from the beginning.  And given that priests who confirm outside of papal approval 'have no power' to do so (as Prummer puts it) or confect 'null' confirmations (as another of the sources puts it) or 'confirm invalidly' as even more sources put it, it is obviously the case that the pope's approval is not affecting a jurisdictional change in the priest but a change of order.  
    .
    If you wish to take issue with my use of the word 'activate,' then so be it, but the latent power (to confirm) is simply inaccessible to priests unless the pope approves them to confirm.  'Activate' is the only word that I can come up with that describes that change's occurence.  If you have a better word, propose it.  
    .
    I strikes me as unjust for you to (in this order) 1) ignore my research and just boldly claim I've got it wrong, 2) give the research a superficial view and then use it to claim it obviously debunks my argument 3) upon further review, use it to agree with what I've been saying (in part) while still using it to impugn my view.  
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    I really wish you were a more competent conversant, because you have a mind for these things but a disposition that leads you to look for fights instead of understanding.  
    .
    ETA: for the inquisitive, (I was curious myself), this research was first published almost eight years ago on Bellarmine Forums: http://sedevacantist.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1668&start=0
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #363 on: August 20, 2020, 12:32:51 PM »
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  • The recent comments here raise a question for me.

    My husband was baptized and confirmed, as an adult, before we were married 15 years ago. The priest who performed it was known for being a very good and holy priest who brought the Latin Mass to the local NO diocese and people would travel from far away, some more than an hour,  to attend his Masses. 
    We didn't question at the time whether or not he had the authority to Confirm because he said he had the permission under the circuмstances. Meaning, perhaps, the 'Crisis in the Church'? Honestly, I wish I could remember what that part meant to make sense of his intentions.  

    So would my husband's Confirmation be valid? Licit? 

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #364 on: August 20, 2020, 12:37:59 PM »
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  • So would my husband's Confirmation be valid? Licit?
    .
    If you're asking me, I would say probably not (to both questions).  Setting aside the theological nuances, 'at the end of the day' one thing is abundantly certain: priests confirm invalidly except and unless they fall under the indult of Pius XII which only allows parish priests to confirm actively dying parishioners.  Of course, depending on your view of the crisis-- maybe you think that Novus Ordo priests are all validly ordained and that all of the laws put in place by the conciliar popes are valid and legitimate, in which case you would have no reason to doubt that the confirmation was valid and licit (because N.O. priests have permission from N.O. popes to confirm).  But if you are approaching the question with skepticism over the validity of N.O. orders, laws, etc., then probably best to seek a conditional or absolute confirmation from a traditional bishop.

    ETA: my wife was in this exact same situation (confirmed by a TLM indult priest), and we sought a conditional confirmation.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Carissima

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #365 on: August 20, 2020, 12:51:15 PM »
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  • .
    If you're asking me
    Yes, and thank you. I am weighing all information submitted.
    I myself was conditionally Confirmed by a Traditional Bishop because of my concerns of the modernist Bishop that confirmed me when I was a teen. 
    My husband has not received any of the Sacraments for many years now, which grieves me. So a conditional Confirmation is not a possibility at this time. As a matter of fact if I went to him with any information that placed doubt on the Sacraments he's already received, he may lose his faith altogether. The confusion is real.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #366 on: August 20, 2020, 12:51:58 PM »
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  • ETA: my wife was in this exact same situation (confirmed by a TLM indult priest), and we sought a conditional confirmation.

    I would think that an Indult priest would only do it if he had the proper authorization.  You know, there are some bishops out there who freely give authority to priests and pastors.  I know of one priest in the Cleveland diocese, who, I kid you not, was given the authority to issue annulments.  He was just a pastor of a suburban church with no special training that would make him qualified.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #367 on: August 20, 2020, 06:38:52 PM »
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  • Quote
    My husband was baptized and confirmed, as an adult, before we were married 15 years ago.
    I thought Roman rite priests could confirm converts at the time of conversion.

    The Roman code of canon law, 883.2 :

    Quote
    883. The following possess the faculty of administering confirmation by the law itself:

    2/ as regards the person in question, the presbyter who by virtue of office or mandate of the diocesan bishop baptizes one who is no longer an infant or admits one already baptized into the full communion of the Catholic Church;


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #368 on: August 20, 2020, 07:27:03 PM »
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  • I thought Roman rite priests could confirm converts at the time of conversion.

    The Roman code of canon law, 883.2 :

    Is this the New Code?  Nevertheless, it specifies that the priest has to be baptizing with the official mandate of the diocesan bishop, which most Traditional priests lack.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #369 on: August 20, 2020, 09:23:27 PM »
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  • Is this the New Code?  Nevertheless, it specifies that the priest has to be baptizing with the official mandate of the diocesan bishop, which most Traditional priests lack.
    Yes 1983 code, and it says by virtue of office or ....  Roman trad priests seem to consider themselves equivalent to pastors via supplied jurisdiction, or have some superior they treat as analogous to a bishop.
    This topic is a little odd to me; priests can confirm in the Eastern rite.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #370 on: August 20, 2020, 09:35:48 PM »
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  • Is this the New Code?  Nevertheless, it specifies that the priest has to be baptizing with the official mandate of the diocesan bishop, which most Traditional priests lack.
    “Consolidate & Control the goy herds”
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #371 on: August 21, 2020, 07:27:44 AM »
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  • Yes 1983 code, and it says by virtue of office or ....  Roman trad priests seem to consider themselves equivalent to pastors via supplied jurisdiction, or have some superior they treat as analogous to a bishop.
    This topic is a little odd to me; priests can confirm in the Eastern rite.

    Yes, and also in the Roman ... with the appropriate permission, e.g. the permission for Cardinal priests, and also for all priests in danger of death.

    Offline Kolar

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #372 on: August 21, 2020, 08:28:08 AM »
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  • Presumably Fr. Pfeiffer has valid holy oils now. After Easter 2021 he will probably use oils consecrated by himself. These will be doubtful. Now, he probably gives validly the sacrament of Extreme Unction. After Easter it will be doubtful, also for the priests associated with him.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #373 on: August 21, 2020, 08:36:13 AM »
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  • Yes, and also in the Roman ... with the appropriate permission, e.g. the permission for Cardinal priests, and also for all priests in danger of death.
    Oh yes, the Cardinal priests... all two* of them. 

    It's much less restricted in the eastern rites.

    (*I can only think of two: Vanhoye and Simoni)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #374 on: August 21, 2020, 11:21:57 AM »
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  • Oh yes, the Cardinal priests... all two* of them.

    It's much less restricted in the eastern rites.

    (*I can only think of two: Vanhoye and Simoni)

    Well, it's not about the quantity ... just reinforcing the notion in principle that priests can validly confirm with the proper authorization.