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Author Topic: Bishop Pfeiffer  (Read 82461 times)

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Offline Stanley N

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Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2020, 10:12:01 AM »
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  • Other people entertain doubts about the Thuc line in general.  Unfortunately, we don't have any relevant and trustworthy Church authority to decide this matter for us.
    There is this regarding the Thuc consecrations:
    Quote
     Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illicit manner, or who will perhaps receive ordination from them, whatever about the validity of the orders, the Church does not nor shall it recognize their ordination, and as regards all juridical effects, it considers them in the state which each one had previously, and the above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in forceuntil repentance.
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19830312_poenae-canonicae_en.html

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #121 on: July 31, 2020, 10:37:14 AM »
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  • I didn't hear something different, but wondered if the words he spoke meant something specific or were just non words which may prove he didn't mean to change anything to mean something different?  Or does that not really matter in the sense that the words simply must be said.  I agree, he could remove doubt by conditionally reconsecrating.    

    Yes, for the purposes of our discussion (ie., validity of form), it does not matter whether or not he chose to mispronounce words of the essential form, but only the degree to which he mispronounced them (ie., whether the degree of the mispronunciation changes the sense and meaning which the words convey), although in the same passages cited earlier, St. Thomas teaches that one who deliberately mispronounced would manifest a contrary intention to “do what the Church does,” and invalidate the sacrament for defective intention.

    It would seem to me that replacing “minister” with “mystery,” and replacing “summam” with “sanum” (ie., “sound”) are substantial mutations which do not at all convey the same sense as the words of the essential form.

    This alone suffices to introduce positive doubt (and possibly outright invalidity) into this consecration.

    In fact, I would consider this consecration more doubtful than the three main Thuc consecrations, because as regards the latter, we have only some concerning speculations regarding Thuc’s mental state, and how this might impact his intention which, to a large degree is a matter of the internal forum, whereas with the Pfeiffer consecration, we have a substantial and recorded botching of the words of the essential form (presuming always that Ladislaus has heard properly, but which nobody is challenging; I will listen myself tonight).

    Ps: Interestingly, as the video is recorded, Rome (albeit modernist Rome) will have an opportunity to pronounce upon the validity of this consecration, and if they did not dishonestly declare the “h0Ɩ0cαųst denying” bishop’s consecrations invalid, I might still have grounds for an honest determination in the case of this one.  In fact, petitioning tgem for a judgment might be the charitable thing to do.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #122 on: July 31, 2020, 11:06:51 AM »
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  • I have no horse in this race.  I wouldn't have much to do with the Bishop(?) Pfieffer's group even if they were undoubtedly valid ... just like I tend to stay away from the dogmatic sedevacantists groups who have valid bishops.

    So if someone heard differently, I'm open to it.  I have no political agenda.  I just like to call it like I see it (or hear it in this case).  If it serves no other purpose than to have Bishop Pfeiffer have it re-done conditionally, then that's fine too.

    But perhaps there's something providential in this botching, as I think Matthew suggested.  Perhaps it'll give some people a bit of a pause with regard to getting involved with them.

    I was present when Neal Webster first received the Minor Orders from Bishop Hesson in Philadelphia.  I was the only one there, and I made a long drive to get there.  Bishop Hesson really slurred his words.  But I didn't say anything because I couldn't verify what he said or didn't say and had to presume its validity ... plus the potential consequences in terms of Minor Orders were not grave.  

    In this case, however, I had to say something because this could potentially lead to people receiving invalid Sacraments.  So I felt obliged in conscience to at least call it out.  Now, people can do whatever they want with my observations, including to completely ignore them.  But I felt an obligation to bring this up because not only did I hear it, but I had the luxury of replaying it over and over again on the recording to make sure I didn't hear it wrong.   Of course, for those who generally doubt the +Thuc line, well, this adds nothing for them.  But for those who consider the line valid, I want to at least call attention to this issue for their consideration.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #123 on: July 31, 2020, 11:12:46 AM »
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  • Guess what?

    I already archived the video. Here it is (625 MB) and anyone can download it -- not just those who are logged in:




    It looks like the software auto-inflates the link into a playable video. That's neat.
    For those who want to DOWNLOAD it, just right click and select "Save Video as..."

    For those who want to listen on this video, the essential form here begins right around 59:10.  It's hard to pick up because he doesn't pause between sentences but runs into it almost making it sound like "comple" goes with the previous sentence, so you may want to start at 59:08 or something and listen for "comple".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #124 on: July 31, 2020, 11:18:09 AM »
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  • You know, with all the Sacramental validity wars, I don't understand why in charity the various groups can't get together and work it out.

    Bishop Kelly and, say, Bishop Sanborn, could conditionally consecrate one another.  Then Bishop Sanborn and Bishop Kelly could conditionally ordain all the priests they had ordained.  Problem solved, and they could start working together again.  But everyone appears too stubborn and proud to do something like this.

    In this case too, just have Bishop Webster conditionally redo it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #125 on: July 31, 2020, 11:26:00 AM »
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  • So there's a story out there very similar about when Bishop Mendez ordained Fathers Greenwell and Baumberger.

    When he got to the essential form, Bishop Mendez sped up and started garbling the words to the point that the priests there could not verify that he said it correctly.  So they asked him to repeat it.  Finally, Bishop Kelly asked Father Zapp, "Did he get it right that time?" to which he responded, "I think so."

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2001/09/11/bp-mendez-sspv-and-hypocrisy/

    Didn’t Bp. Mendez show he was a tra­ditionalist by ordain­ing two priests for SSPV in September 1990?

    -Had no wish to be identified publicly as traditional Catholic or even associ­ated with ceremony.
    -Arrived, as usual, in lay clothes.
    -Performed ordination ceremony in se­cret.
    -Followed Novus Ordo rules and did not ordain can­didates to subdiaconate before. (Subdiaconate is when semi­narians take on celibacy obligation.)
    -Refused to wear all the traditional vestments.
    -Insisted ceremony not be videotaped: “Get that thing out of here!”
    -When he arrived at Preface of Ordin­ation, which contains the essen­tial sacramental form, sud­denly began rac­ing through it so quickly that it was incomprehensible.
    -Became angry when asked to repeat es­sential part.
    -Then repeated it in way that prompted following exchange: Fr. Kelly: “Did he get it right that time?” Fr. Thomas Zapp: “I think so.”
    -Ceremony continued on basis of “Think so.”
    -Fr. Zapp says he cannot vouch for cer­tain that Mendez finally said essential words properly.
    -Bishop’s conduct during ceremony was such that af­terwards in sacristy Fr. Kelly shook his head, told Fr. Zapp: “Never again. I’ll never do this again.”
    -Mendez used a false name to disassoci­ate himself from ordination: “Bishop Francis Gonzalez.”
    -Lied and denied in writing that he per­formed ordi­nation, calling it “an ugly rumor.” (Letter to Fr. Scott, 17 October 1990)

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #126 on: July 31, 2020, 11:52:24 AM »
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  • Bishop Kelly and, say, Bishop Sanborn, could conditionally consecrate one another. 
    What?  If both are in need of conditional consecration don't they need a valid bishop to consecrate one of them first?   :facepalm:
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #127 on: July 31, 2020, 12:59:22 PM »
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  • What?  If both are in need of conditional consecration don't they need a valid bishop to consecrate one of them first?   :facepalm:

    No, each believes that the OTHER is in need of conditional consecration.  So this way they could make peace and start working together again.  Entire families were torn apart when the two camps broke with one another, with Cincinnati being split in two (between the school and original chapel), then there were competing churches in the same town, etc.  It was a mess that didn't need to happen.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #128 on: July 31, 2020, 12:59:51 PM »
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  • Bishop Sanborn and Fr Desposito have viewed the consecration video and they both agree that it was invalid.

    See https://twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1289246165439885312

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #129 on: July 31, 2020, 01:02:26 PM »
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  • Bishop Sanborn and Fr Desposito have viewed the consecration video and they both agree that it was invalid.

    See https://twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1289246165439885312
    :popcorn:
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #130 on: July 31, 2020, 01:07:11 PM »
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  • Bishop Sanborn and Fr Desposito have viewed the consecration video and they both agree that it was invalid.

    See https://twitter.com/NovusOrdoWatch/status/1289246165439885312

    Looks like NovusOrdoWatch might have been on CI here, since the link to the video starts up exactly at 59:08, where I suggested to start looking.  Yes, it looks like they heard the same thing I did.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #131 on: July 31, 2020, 01:12:34 PM »
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  • Looks like the video is still accessible on Pablo's youtube channel.

    I also found this there:


    Enjoy.   :popcorn:

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #132 on: July 31, 2020, 01:15:17 PM »
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  • Looks like the video is still accessible on Pablo's youtube channel.

    I also found this there:


    Enjoy.   :popcorn:

    Actually, this one is just a picture, accompanied by the usual out of tune Mexican music.  But Matthew has it downloaded somewhere a couple pages ago.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #133 on: July 31, 2020, 01:16:04 PM »
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  • So now that a couple of well-trained priests have chimed in with their opinion that it was not valid, what will the response be from the +?Pfeiffer camp?

    This would be pretty easy to rectify, with Bishop Webster still being around and available to conditionally redo it.


    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #134 on: July 31, 2020, 01:16:47 PM »
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  • No, each believes that the OTHER is in need of conditional consecration.  So this way they could make peace and start working together again. 
    If your first sentence is accurate why would either of them submit to the other?  They wouldn't.
    Sorry I just don't see any logic.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]