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Author Topic: Bishop Pfeiffer  (Read 30927 times)

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Offline SaintJude

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Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2020, 12:03:35 AM »
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  • I’ve been asked to come on here to correct a few errors currently circulating regarding the consecration of Bp. Pfeiffer. In justice and the right to defend against the unjust damaging of another's good name I provide the following:

    1. To say that Bp. Pfeiffer went looking for himself to be consecrated is calumny. Bp. Pfeiffer did his best to find a bishop to ordain OLMC seminarians. He first approached Bp. Williamson who refused (despite previous assurances) and then to the other Resistance bishops. Then he reached out to other traditional bishops. The frailty of Bp. Webster is clear and a one off ordination would be no solution to the crisis (the obvious solution being for OLMC to have its own auxiliary bishop). Had, Fr. Hewko remained or other Resistance priest joined OLMC Fr. Pfeiffer would have let Bp. Webster (or Bp. Williamson for that matter) decide who to consecrate. But It just so happens that in the current circuмstance Fr. Pfeiffer was the obvious choice.

    2. Whether Bp. Webster mispronounced his words (the audio isn’t very clear) or there was a loss of attention does not render the sacrament invalid. A good and in-depth article on these points, which references Thomas Aquinas, is given here:
    https://www.hprweb.com/2016/01/questions-regarding-the-use-of-latin-in-celebrating-the-mass/

    3. Regarding the doubtful validity of Terrasson’s ordination, the episcopal consecration itself makes up for the deficiency of ordination as, to quote Bp. Williamson, “the greater contains the lesser” (http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/validity-of-archbishop-lefebvres.html). Further, if Laborie was conditionally consecrated because of whatever reason (who got to determine that?) is there not a duty on him to communicate that to those priests he previously ordained or does he allow them to continue to minister potentially invalid sacraments to the faithful? In any event Terrasson sort a conditional ordination from Clemente prior to him being consecrated.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #91 on: July 31, 2020, 12:56:18 AM »
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  • "SaintJude",

    You're conveniently leaving out the most obvious, rational, sensible solution: shutting down the seminary and sending the candidates away to other seminaries, if they indeed have vocations.

    When God says "no", "no", "no", "no" about 10-20 times, you don't thereby have permission to do crazy things and even commit sins, in order to circuмvent God's obvious will in the matter.

    You can't tell me God is spelling out loud and clear that Fr. Pfeiffer (or Bp. Pfeiffer) running a seminary is His will. Quite the contrary is obvious to any objective Catholic with a brain, and no dog in this fight.

    The simple fact that Fr. Pfeiffer *couldn't* find a bishop to ordain seminarians is sufficient to demonstrate God's will in the matter. Also the fact that there aren't enough priests to teach or run a proper seminary. Any SANE person would conclude, "Maybe God wants me to do something else..."

    But Fr. Pfeiffer wouldn't take anyone's will but his own -- hence his seeking out and going through with consecration to the Episcopate.

    I TOTALLY REJECT Bp. Pfeiffer's premise that "Well, SOMEONE has to ordain my seminarians." No, you need to shut down your shameful excuse for a seminary before any more souls suffer damage.
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    Offline fatimarevelation23

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #92 on: July 31, 2020, 01:52:13 AM »
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  • I’ve been asked to come on here to correct a few errors currently circulating regarding the consecration of Bp. Pfeiffer. In justice and the right to defend against the unjust damaging of another's good name I provide the following:

    1. To say that Bp. Pfeiffer went looking for himself to be consecrated is calumny. Bp. Pfeiffer did his best to find a bishop to ordain OLMC seminarians. He first approached Bp. Williamson who refused (despite previous assurances) and then to the other Resistance bishops. Then he reached out to other traditional bishops. The frailty of Bp. Webster is clear and a one off ordination would be no solution to the crisis (the obvious solution being for OLMC to have its own auxiliary bishop). Had, Fr. Hewko remained or other Resistance priest joined OLMC Fr. Pfeiffer would have let Bp. Webster (or Bp. Williamson for that matter) decide who to consecrate. But It just so happens that in the current circuмstance Fr. Pfeiffer was the obvious choice.

    2. Whether Bp. Webster mispronounced his words (the audio isn’t very clear) or there was a loss of attention does not render the sacrament invalid. A good and in-depth article on these points, which references Thomas Aquinas, is given here:
    https://www.hprweb.com/2016/01/questions-regarding-the-use-of-latin-in-celebrating-the-mass/

    3. Regarding the doubtful validity of Terrasson’s ordination, the episcopal consecration itself makes up for the deficiency of ordination as, to quote Bp. Williamson, “the greater contains the lesser” (http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/validity-of-archbishop-lefebvres.html). Further, if Laborie was conditionally consecrated because of whatever reason (who got to determine that?) is there not a duty on him to communicate that to those priests he previously ordained or does he allow them to continue to minister potentially invalid sacraments to the faithful? In any event Terrasson sort a conditional ordination from Clemente prior to him being consecrated.

    Uh oh, Ladies and Gentleman, we have ourselves a Bishop Pfeiffer supporter. As I was posting my thoughts on this about 2-3 hours ago, I noticed "SaintJude" here has only one post on all of CathInfo and it's this post. I was writing my own response on this matter and how much I agreed with Matthew 100% on this subject of "Bishop" Pfeiffer and how disappointed I was that "Bishop" Pfeiffer's organizations he's affiliated with posts youtube videos of Fr. Gregory Hesse because (in my opinion) I think that Fr. Gregory Hesse (may he rest in peace) would definitely not support "Bishop" Pfeiffer's consecration. But, I then saw that "SaintJude" posted this malarkey. Let's hope this isn't like a Croix or a Karen Yapper situation again. Anyways, Four questions for "SaintJude"

    1. Are you a parishioner at "Bishop" Pfeiffer's Chapel?
    2. Did you attend "Bishop" Pfeiffer's consecration?
    3. You joined CathInfo in May and you didn't post anything until now?
    4. Do you know "Bishop" Pfeiffer personally?

    I would love to hear the answers from you "SaintJude". Now to destroy all your points on "Bishop" Pfeiffer's consecration with one paragraph, it would be this which explains Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre's condemnation of these types of people many years ago which I quote from the Catacombs Forum:

    "During his recent visit to America, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre referred several times to the report that several individuals including some claiming to be "traditional" priests had attempted to have themselves consecrated bishops. Archbishop Lefebvre totally condemned their actions and warned all Catholics to have nothing to do with them. "They will bring ruination and scandal on the Church," Archbishop Lefebvre replied when asked his opinion of the scandal-ridden "consecrations."

    I rest my case...
    If somebody wants to shoot me from a window with a rifle, Nobody can stop it, so why worry about it? - John F. Kennedy, The Morning of November 22nd, 1963.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #93 on: July 31, 2020, 03:16:53 AM »
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  • St. Thomas also discusses the validity of a sacrament if the words are mispronounced. He wrote:
    Quote
    If he who corrupts the pronunciation of the sacramental words—does so on purpose, he does not seem to intend to do what the Church intends: and thus the sacrament seems to be defective. But if he does this through error or a slip of the tongue, and if he so far mispronounces the words as to deprive them of sense, the sacrament seems to be defective. This would be the case especially if the mispronunciation be in the beginning of a word, for instance, if one were to say “in nomine matris” instead of “in nomine Patris.” If, however, the sense of the words be not entirely lost by this mispronunciation, the sacrament is complete. This would be the case principally if the end of a word be mispronounced; for instance, if one were to say “patrias et filias.” For although the words thus mispronounced have no appointed meaning, yet we allow them in accommodated meaning corresponding to the usual forms of speech. And so, although the sensible sound is changed, yet the sense remains the same. … Nevertheless the principle point to observe is the extent of the corruption entailed by mispronunciation: for in either case it may be so little that it does not alter the sense of the words; or so great that it destroys it. (S.T. III, q. 60, a. 7, ad. 3)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #94 on: July 31, 2020, 04:18:35 AM »
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  • And:

    “With regard to all the variations that may occur in the sacramental forms, two points seem to call for our attention. One is on the part of the person who says the words, and whose intention is essential to the sacrament. …
    The other point to be considered is the meaning of the words. For since, in the sacraments, the words produce an effect according to the sense which they convey, as stated above (7, ad 1), we must see whether the change of words destroys the essential sense of the words: because then the sacrament is clearly rendered invalid. Now it is clear, if any substantial part of the sacramental form be suppressed, that the essential sense of the words is destroyed; and, consequently, the sacrament is invalid. (S.T. III, q. 60, a. 8)”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #95 on: July 31, 2020, 05:00:34 AM »
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  • "SaintJude",

    You're conveniently leaving out the most obvious, rational, sensible solution: shutting down the seminary and sending the candidates away to other seminaries, if they indeed have vocations.

    When God says "no", "no", "no", "no" about 10-20 times, you don't thereby have permission to do crazy things and even commit sins, in order to circuмvent God's obvious will in the matter.

    You can't tell me God is spelling out loud and clear that Fr. Pfeiffer (or Bp. Pfeiffer) running a seminary is His will. Quite the contrary is obvious to any objective Catholic with a brain, and no dog in this fight.

    The simple fact that Fr. Pfeiffer *couldn't* find a bishop to ordain seminarians is sufficient to demonstrate God's will in the matter. Also the fact that there aren't enough priests to teach or run a proper seminary. Any SANE person would conclude, "Maybe God wants me to do something else..."

    But Fr. Pfeiffer wouldn't take anyone's will but his own -- hence his seeking out and going through with consecration to the Episcopate.

    I TOTALLY REJECT Bp. Pfeiffer's premise that "Well, SOMEONE has to ordain my seminarians." No, you need to shut down your shameful excuse for a seminary before any more souls suffer damage.
    Definitely this!

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #96 on: July 31, 2020, 05:06:58 AM »
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  • Shocked. Terribly Sad.  
    This after links to pornography appeared in the comments section of the last two sermons from OLMC.
    As someone said previously, “only if I were dying.”
    And even then...
    He does not look happy.

    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #97 on: July 31, 2020, 06:20:34 AM »
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  • I’ve been asked to come on here to correct a few errors currently circulating regarding the consecration of Bp. Pfeiffer. In justice and the right to defend against the unjust damaging of another's good name I provide the following:

    1. To say that Bp. Pfeiffer went looking for himself to be consecrated is calumny. Bp. Pfeiffer did his best to find a bishop to ordain OLMC seminarians. He first approached Bp. Williamson who refused (despite previous assurances) and then to the other Resistance bishops. Then he reached out to other traditional bishops. The frailty of Bp. Webster is clear and a one off ordination would be no solution to the crisis (the obvious solution being for OLMC to have its own auxiliary bishop). Had, Fr. Hewko remained or other Resistance priest joined OLMC Fr. Pfeiffer would have let Bp. Webster (or Bp. Williamson for that matter) decide who to consecrate. But It just so happens that in the current circuмstance Fr. Pfeiffer was the obvious choice.

    2. Whether Bp. Webster mispronounced his words (the audio isn’t very clear) or there was a loss of attention does not render the sacrament invalid. A good and in-depth article on these points, which references Thomas Aquinas, is given here:
    https://www.hprweb.com/2016/01/questions-regarding-the-use-of-latin-in-celebrating-the-mass/

    3. Regarding the doubtful validity of Terrasson’s ordination, the episcopal consecration itself makes up for the deficiency of ordination as, to quote Bp. Williamson, “the greater contains the lesser” (http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/validity-of-archbishop-lefebvres.html). Further, if Laborie was conditionally consecrated because of whatever reason (who got to determine that?) is there not a duty on him to communicate that to those priests he previously ordained or does he allow them to continue to minister potentially invalid sacraments to the faithful? In any event Terrasson sort a conditional ordination from Clemente prior to him being consecrated.
    The doubtfulness of the Thuc line is all that matters. This is not addressed here.
    How well formed the seminarians are, is beside the point.
    "Bishop" Pfeiffer will always have doubt over all priests he attempts to consecrate. The whole situation is very, very sad.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #98 on: July 31, 2020, 06:21:39 AM »
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  • The doubtfulness of the Thuc line is all that matters. This is not addressed here.
    How well formed the seminarians are, is beside the point.
    "Bishop" Pfeiffer will always have doubt over all priests he attempts to consecrate. The whole situation is very, very sad.
    Agreed.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SaintJude

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #99 on: July 31, 2020, 07:19:59 AM »
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  • The doubtfulness of the Thuc line is all that matters. This is not addressed here.
    How well formed the seminarians are, is beside the point.
    "Bishop" Pfeiffer will always have doubt over all priests he attempts to consecrate. The whole situation is very, very sad.
    There is no doubt:
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=60&catna

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #100 on: July 31, 2020, 07:24:47 AM »
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  • The doubtfulness of the Thuc line is all that matters. This is not addressed here.
    How well formed the seminarians are, is beside the point.
    "Bishop" Pfeiffer will always have doubt over all priests he attempts to consecrate. The whole situation is very, very sad.

    It's not addressed here, but mentioned in passing, because there have been dozens of long threads about this.  Some people, mostly of the SSPV mindset, consider them doubtful.  I, on the other hand, have not seen anything that would suffice to establish any positive doubt.  It is due entirely to SSPV propaganda that people have negative doubts about them.  Meanwhile, the same people that doubt the +Thuc ordinations have no issues with the +Mendez ordinations and consecration ... despite the fact that it labors under the same difficulties.  I don't have a problem with either line.

    Now, there are some strange +Thuc lines that are very difficult to verify, but the main lines have little doubt about them, especially the +Guerards des Laurier->+McKenna, and the +Carmona lines.

    Someone offline sent me a signed conditional ordination certificate for Terrasson, which would put that doubt to bed.

    There's little doubt about the validity of the Clemente Dominguez line either per se, but I do have some questions about Clemente's training.  He was ordained/consecrated with little training, and I would have some questions about whether he could competently perform an ordination or consecration.  Part of the presumption of validity has to do with the assumption that a properly-trained priest or bishop can validly confect the Sacraments ... another reason why proper clerical training is so important.

    It is my personal opinion, however, that Bishop Webster sufficiently botched the essential form during this consecration to render it positively doubtful.  Had they not released this video, there would have been presumption of validity, but with this evidence, there's now positive doubt.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #101 on: July 31, 2020, 07:28:58 AM »
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  • St. Thomas also discusses the validity of a sacrament if the words are mispronounced. He wrote:

    Right, there's an allowance for a certain amount of botching ... especially messing up the Latin inflection (the word ending).  But he's saying that if the root of the word remains the same, it's considered valid.

    But if ministerii summam becomes misterii sanum .... it's a big stretch.  I think that this is bad enough to constitute positive doubt.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #102 on: July 31, 2020, 07:31:14 AM »
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  • Right, there's an allowance for a certain amount of botching ... especially messing up the Latin inflection (the word ending).  But he's saying that if the root of the word remains the same, it's considered valid.

    But if ministerii summam becomes misterii sanum .... it's a big stretch.  I think that this is bad enough to constitute positive doubt.
    Me too.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #103 on: July 31, 2020, 07:33:01 AM »
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  • Me too.

    If he had messed some stuff up later in that sentence, I would not be as concerned, but the MINISTERII SUMMAM is in fact the precise grace that is being conferred, the culmination of the priestly ministry, i.e. the episcopacy.  Those two words are absolutely essential, and from what I heard, he got them wrong.  If he had said minister summum or something like that, it would be close enough, since it would be a mere botching of word endings.  But what he ended up saying is not the same thing.  SANUM (from sanus) means healthy or whole in Latin, and MISTERII (or MYSTERII) (from mysterium) means mystery.  Those are both different root words from the original, not just a question of endings.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #104 on: July 31, 2020, 07:37:37 AM »
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  • 3. Regarding the doubtful validity of Terrasson’s ordination, the episcopal consecration itself makes up for the deficiency of ordination as, to quote Bp. Williamson,

    This is highly debated among theologians and conferral of the episcopacy on someone who is not a priest is considered to be positively doubtful.

    Nevertheless, someone did produce a docuмent that I saw (which looked legitimate) that Terrasson had been conditionally ordained by Clemente before his consecration.