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Author Topic: Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016  (Read 2345 times)

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Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
« on: October 20, 2016, 07:11:00 PM »
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  • Emphasis mine.

    Quote from: B. Fellay 10/08/16

    http://www.dici.org/en/docuмents/conference-given-by-bp-fellay-october-8-2016-port-marly-france/

    Can a Pastoral Council be Debatable?


    All of a sudden, more than a year ago, Rome made us a new proposition. They were really stuck because we were saying: No. We cannot say that the Council is traditional. We cannot. And then this new Mass, we cannot say that it is good. Well, then, all of a sudden, they made us a new proposition, and you can understand what happened through certain interviews given by Abp. Pozzo. He explains to us that, at the start, they wanted to make us accept everything and that that did not work. They asked themselves therefore how to get out of the predicament, since everything was blocked, and it seems that they found the method. It was to distinguish within the Council some more important parts and others that are less important. The first time Abp. Pozzo spoke about this was in February of 2016, but you see, that was already almost nine months after they had made us their proposition.

    In effect they dropped some rather important things. They no longer ask us to recite the “profession of Cardinal Ratzinger” . Precisely where Abp. Lefebvre had stumbled on a remark by Cardinal Ratzinger that had added something to the usual profession of faith. And this addition concerns what we call the authentic Magisterium. Cardinal Ratzinger, at that time, had explained that with this addition they were asking for religious submission to the docuмents of the authentic Magisterium, obliging Catholics to accept the Council.

    This can be debated: it is true per se that we owe respectful submision to magisterial docuмents, an Encyclical for example. It is normal to receive this docuмent respectfully, since it is issued by the supreme authority. In itself the phrase is not shocking, it is even Catholic. But of course, when you make the connection with this Council, it starts to become more awkward.

    And therefore we truly balked at this profession of faith. Well, as it turns out, they no longer demand it of us! They ask us to recite the old one that is called the Tridentine profession of faith of Pie IV. In the docuмent they call it the “profession of the Council Fathers”. Yes, the Council Fathers—in other words, all the bishops gathered at Vatican Council II—made, at the beginning of the first session, a profession of faith that is the traditional profession of faith. Just as the Mass that was celebrated during the Council was the old Mass….



    The “profession of Cardinal Ratzinger” is the infamous new "Profession of Faith" with the added paragraph which states NOT "respectful submission" BUT "submission of will and intellect". Bishop Fellay admits taking the (new) "Profession of Faith" which has always been "non negotiable" but implies it was the Tridentine Profession of Faith (quoted below).

    How is it possible that the Romans, who never acknowledge any pre- VII docuмents would ask them to take this TPF? From Francis who has already stated that "Luther was right about justification"? And who obviously despises the Ecclesiastical Traditions of the Church? Even Benedict XVI never offered the 1962 Missal in public.

    Also, Francis has stated that Proselytism is the 'greatest poison' against (his 1st commandment) Ecuмenism. But the SSPX can make a profession of faith on EENS? I would love to see what the Vatican has to say about this.


    Quote from: Tridentine Profession of Faith
    http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Symbola/Tridentinae.html

    The "Professio fidei Tridentina", also known as the "Creed of Pope Pius IV", is one of the four authoritative Creeds of the Catholic Church. It was issued on November 13, 1565 by Pope Pius IV in his bull "Iniunctum nobis" under the auspices of the Council of Trent (1545 - 1563). It was subsequently modified slightly after the First Vatican Council (1869 - 1870) to bring it inline with the dogmatic definitions of the Council. The major intent of the Creed was to clearly define the Catholic faith against Protestantism. At one time it was used by Theologians as an oath of loyalty to the Church and to reconcile converts to the Church, but it is rarely used these days.

    I, N, with a firm faith believe and profess each and everything which is contained in the Creed which the Holy Roman Church maketh use of. To wit:

    I believe in one God, The Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God. Born of the Father before all ages. God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God. Begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary: and was made man. He was also crucified for us, suffered under Pontius Pilate, and was buried. And on the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and His kingdom will have no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who together with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, and who spoke through the prophets. And one holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I await the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    The Apostolic and Ecclesiastical traditions and all other observances and constitutions of that same Church I firmly admit to and embrace.

    I also accept the Holy Scripture according to that sense which holy mother the Church hath held, and doth hold, and to whom it belongeth to judge the true sense and interpretations of the Scriptures. Neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

    I also profess that there are truly and properly Seven Sacraments of the New Law, instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, and necessary for the salvation of mankind, though not all are necessary for everyone; to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; and that they confer grace; and that of these, Baptism, Confirmation, and Holy Orders cannot be repeated without sacrilege. I also receive and admit the accepted and approved ceremonies of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of the aforesaid sacraments.

    I embrace and accept each and everything which has been defined and declared in the holy Council of Trent concerning original sin and justification.

    This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved,
    which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, I do so profess and swear to maintain inviolate and with firm constancy with the help of God until the last breath of life. And I shall strive, as far as possible, that this same faith shall be held, taught, and professed by all those over whom I have charge. I N. do so pledge, promise, and swear, so help me God and these Holy Gospels of God.

    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 05:08:08 AM »
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  • In case you couldn't motivate yourselves to read +Fellay's statement above, he claims in the last paragraph, that Rome gave up on the SSPX taking the modernist "Profession of Faith" so they ask them to take the TRIDENTINE PROFESSION of FAITH of pope PIUS IV. That is the greatest lie yet. That is IMPOSSIBLE. Read comment above and the TPF quoted also.

    To be honest, I couldn't bring myself to read it until I did a word search.

    Matthew?
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Nishant

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 06:33:37 AM »
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  • What His Excellency Bishop Fellay relates is wonderful news, the Tridentine profession of Faith is a magnificent Creed authorized for centuries by Holy Mother Church that eloquently summarizes the essential truths of our Faith. The only thing left would be to ask the Vatican authorities to take it too! +ABL said as much, that what the SSPX basically asks the Roman authorities is to swear by the Oath against Modernism and the other Creeds to which the Catholic conscience is irrevocably bound for all time. But in doing this, we must also remember other truths of that same Faith, including truths pertaining to the Magisterium of the Church enjoying the perpetual and infallible guidance of the Holy Ghost according to the promise of Christ our Savior.

    Marie Auxiliadora, are you aware of the Catholic teaching on the respectful submission owed to Papal Encyclicals and other docuмents of the Authentic Ordinary Magisterium? Bp. Fellay said, "what we call the authentic Magisterium ... it is true per se that we owe respectful submision to magisterial docuмents, an Encyclical for example. It is normal to receive this docuмent respectfully, since it is issued by the supreme authority. In itself the phrase is not shocking, it is even Catholic". What exactly is objectionable in this? I think you've already concluded Bp. Fellay is wrong even before reading what H.E. said.

    http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/encyclicals/docauthority.htm

    THE DOCTRINAL AUTHORITY OF PAPAL ENCYCLICALS, American Ecclesiastical Review, Vol. CXXI, August, 1949

    Quote
    The distinguished theologians who deny the papal encyclicals the status of infallible docuмents teach, none the less, that the faithful are bound in conscience to accord these letters not only the tribute of respectful silence, but also a definite and sincere internal religious assent. To this end many of them, like Fr. De Groot, [30] apply to the encyclicals a teaching with the eminent and brilliant Dominic Palmieri had developed about the Catholic attitude towards non-infallible teaching in the Church. [31] Pegues, in his Revue thomiste article, makes this application with his usual clarity.

    Hence it follows that the authority of the encyclicals is not at all the same as that of the solemn definition, the one properly so-called. The definition demands an assent without reservation and makes a formal act of faith obligatory. The case of the encyclical’s authority is not the same. This authority (of the papal encyclicals) is undoubtedly great. It is, in a sense, sovereign. It is the teaching of the supreme pastor and teacher of the Church. Hence the faithful have a strict obligation to receive this teaching with an infinite respect. A man must not be content simply not to contradict it openly and in a more or less scandalous fashion. An internal mental assent is demanded. It should be received as the teaching sovereignly authorized within the Church.

    Ultimately, however, this assent is not the same as the one demanded in the formal act of faith. Strictly speaking, it is possible that this teaching (proposed in the encyclical letter) is subject to error. There are a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It has probably never been (erroneous), and it is normally certain that it will never be. But, absolutely speaking, it could be, because God does not guarantee it as He guarantees the teaching formulated by way of definition’.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 08:30:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    What His Excellency Bishop Fellay relates is wonderful news, the Tridentine profession of Faith is a magnificent Creed authorized for centuries by Holy Mother Church that eloquently summarizes the essential truths of our Faith.


    It WOULD be absolutely wonderful if it were true. I believe this to be not only a lie, but an impossibility. The Modernists asking the SSPX to take the Tridentine Profession of faith? You can believe it if you want. That was not possible even under BXVI, but Francis? A heretic who claims Luther was right about justification and that Proselytism is a grave poison against ecuмenism and rejects dogma and whose first commandment is ecuмenism? Good luck to you in Rome. The Tridentine Profession of Faith stands in total opposition to Rome. Have the Romans converted? Have they renounced their heresies?

    Quote

    Marie Auxiliadora, are you aware of the Catholic teaching on the respectful submission owed to Papal Encyclicals and other docuмents of the Authentic Ordinary Magisterium? Bp. Fellay said, "what we call the authentic Magisterium ... it is true per se that we owe respectful submision to magisterial docuмents, an Encyclical for example. It is normal to receive this docuмent respectfully, since it is issued by the supreme authority. In itself the phrase is not shocking, it is even Catholic". What exactly is objectionable in this? I think you've already concluded Bp. Fellay is wrong even before reading what H.E. said.


    The "Profession of Faith" that he took could not be the Tridentine Profession of Faith. The only P.F Rome has insisted on as non-negotiable is what +Fellay calls the “profession of Cardinal Ratzinger” where "Abp. Lefebvre had stumbled on a remark by Cardinal Ratzinger that had added something to the usual profession of faith" (of JPII). That "remark" refers to the paragraph: " Moreover, I adhere with religious submission of will and intellect to the teachings which either the Roman Pontiff or the College of Bishops enunciate when they exercise their authentic Magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act."

    May I remind YOU, that AMORIS LAETITIA is an act of the "authentic Magisterium" to which " religious submission of will and intellect" is to be given "even if they do not intend to proclaim these teachings by a definitive act."? Who rejects the Ecclesiastical Traditions? Maybe not now, but wait!

    2
    Quote
    And therefore we truly balked at this profession of faith. Well, as it turns out, they no longer demand it of us! They ask us to recite the old one that is called the Tridentine profession of faith of Pie IV. In the docuмent they call it the “profession of the Council Fathers”. Yes, the Council Fathers—in other words, all the bishops gathered at Vatican Council II—made, at the beginning of the first session, a profession of faith that is the traditional profession of faith. Just as the Mass that was celebrated during the Council was the old Mass….


    I believe that in "The Docuмent" from the Romans, they camouflage the “profession of Cardinal Ratzinger” under the name “profession of the Council Fathers”. I think this is an insult from H.E. to the intelligence of faithful and members. Again, you can choose to believe, I don't.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 09:34:36 AM »
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  • Part of my post is missing. I'm at the eye doctor now and don't have time. I wonder how it happened! After posting it, it was intact.   :confused1:
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)


    Offline Incredulous

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 10:24:02 AM »
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  • So what do we see happening in all this?

    Bp. Fellay and the SSPX are beginning their new, official role as the "Vatican intepreters" for Catholic tradition.

    They can throw up any real Catholic docuмent from our Church forefathers and just say "Rome agrees to it!"

    "There, you see! Everything is okay, we are on safe ground"



     "Hey, look at me buddy, I'm a trad bishop in a long cassock, you better respect and believe me!"


    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline AJNC

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 07:05:06 PM »
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  • And what did the Lutherans at this conference have to say about this?

    Offline JPaul

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 10:06:26 AM »
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  • It must be assumed that the SSPX already adheres to the orthodoxy of the Catholic creed but, it is that orthodoxy which is contrary to the modernist teaching of the conciliar entity. So one must logically ask, why do they want them to affirm something which is the basis for conflict between them rather than a modified text which would allow some sort of agreement?
    Bishop Fellay is very eager to broker a deal, and he has been known in the past to colour facts and cast them in a more positive manner that does not actually reflect the realities.
    He has also been caught asserting things which turned out to be false and unorthodox.

    Great caution should be exercised in taking his statements at face value, although his fans and supporters do so and commit themselves to whatever he utters.

    SSPX is obviously already with the modernist Roman enterprise in spirit if not in fact.  These statements are just details being worked out.  The Faithful will all wake up one day and will have become Novus Ordo indult catholics overnight who will be in canonical submission to the conciliar doctrines and errors and heretical popes such as Francis.

    The gates of Tradition are being thrown open to the plunderers. The coming defeat comes from within.
     


    Offline songbird

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #8 on: October 25, 2016, 01:37:06 PM »
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  • What happened to "excommunication".  All bishops from the very beginning, were watched over very carefully.  Any suspicion of a bishop (s) not in "magisterium", was excommunicated.  Of the list.

    When Russia was in need of consecration by Pope and all bishops, Our Lady's request, was not fulfilled, nothing happened.  Hm? Maybe because the magisterium was not there?  Was Our Lady giving us a heads up?  I do think so.

    When there is a break in magisterium, then what?  When Authority to see that excommunication should be used and is not?!  What can we expect?

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #9 on: October 25, 2016, 02:02:54 PM »
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  • Our Lady of Fatima gave us "heads up" with her warning about "Apostasy from the top". What is happening in Rome should not surprise us. I just read an interesting quote from St. Athanasius which we can apply to our own times:

    Quote
    Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to the Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.  
    St. Athanasius


    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Incredulous

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    Bishop Felllay Oct. 8th 2016
    « Reply #10 on: October 25, 2016, 05:04:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Maria Auxiliadora
    Our Lady of Fatima gave us "heads up" with her warning about "Apostasy from the top". What is happening in Rome should not surprise us. I just read an interesting quote from St. Athanasius which we can apply to our own times:

    Quote
    Thus, the more violently they try to occupy the places of worship, the more they separate themselves from the Church. They claim that they represent the Church; but in reality, they are the ones who are expelling themselves from it and going astray. Even if Catholics faithful to the Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.  
    St. Athanasius




    This would mean, the "Gates of Hell" would not have prevailed if it boiled down to only Mater Dominici and her family being the last Trads alive.


    Notice... I didn't mention Matthew
     :cowboy:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi