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Offline brianhope

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Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
« on: November 08, 2021, 06:40:26 AM »
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    • I heard from a Resistance cleric that Bishop Fellay has rolled up his sleeve for The Vax and that that's why he's free to travel around the world. And that "it's public knowledge that he's been vaxxed". Has anyone seen or heard anything about this? I've not heard this elsewhere, though it wouldn't surprise me, especially considering Fr. Sélégny's letter (which is the de facto position of the SSPX): "Thus, if it is impossible to approach the dying to confer on them the sacraments without being oneself vaccinated, we should prefer the salvation of our neighbor to our own health or tranquility. The same goes for all those who are obliged in justice, according to their duty of state, to provide for the salvation of their neighbor".  Of course, just like the Australian doctor commented in his open letter, I disagree with Fr. Sélégny's letter on all points.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #1 on: November 08, 2021, 06:47:31 AM »
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    • This topic came up a couple weeks ago because Fr. Chazal allegedly spread the rumor that Bishop de Gallareta had taken the jab.  But in that case, nobody could docuмent him flying anywhere that requires the jab for admission (and I suspect the same thing here with regard to Fellay).

    Show me a picture of him in Canada after October 30, or in France, and we will have hard facts.

    Otherwise, this is all simple presumption that Fellay is traveling to countries which require the jab.

    As far as taking the jab in order to give the sacraments, the ends don’t justify the means.  Presuming circuмstances could ever make the jab morally licit, those conditions laid out by the Vatican are not met.  The jab doesn’t become licit because of sentimentality or heart wrenching stories of senior citizens dying in nursing homes without sacraments.  I completely  acknowledge the horrific nature of such a fate, and my heart goes out to any such people.  Regarding them, I feel like St. Augustine pondering infants who die unbaptized: I don’t know what to say, except like him, I’m not willing to bend theology to accommodate them.  Not sure what the answer there is.

    Maybe an analogous “St Thomas” will come along to correct “St. Augustine,” and explain why his wrong assessment of the situation caused his own perplexity (ie., establish for certain that the jab is not formal cooperation, and how necessity can even dispense with the Vatican requirements/criteria, etc.).
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #2 on: November 08, 2021, 07:15:01 AM »
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    • This argument comes from an old SiSiNoNo article justifying the 1988 episcopal consecrations, but the principle elucidated will govern the morality of all acts undertaken in a state of necessity:

    “Not even God, the Supreme Legislator, is bound in the state of necessity ."That is why Christ Himself excuses David, who in grave danger ate the breads of proposition which the laity were forbidden to eat by Divine Law."5 According to this principle, not only do human laws cease to oblige in a state of necessity, but even divine-positive and affirmative divine-natural law cease (e.g., "Honor thy father and mother"; "Remember to keep holy the Sabbath Day"). The only law binding in the state of necessity is negative divine-natural law {e.g., "Thou shalt not kill," etc.) . This is because negative divine-natural law prohibits actions that are intrinsically evil and hence forbidden because they are evil, as opposed to actions which are evil only because they are forbidden, such as the consecration of bishops without pontifical mandate.”
    https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/1999_September/The_1988_Consecrations.htm

    My question is whether, since the grave physical and spiritual necessity of dying elderly Catholics is certainly in play, the reception of the jab in order to assist them is a violation of “negative divine natural law” per above.

    Presuming the SSPX article which presented this excerpt was correct, it would seem to suggest that, unless taking the jab was intrinsically evil, necessity could override the satisfaction of the Vatican’s four criteria???

    And if so, who can settle the matter of direct vs remote cooperation (ie., if the cooperation is direct, as some have argued, then the matter is certainly intrinsically evil, and a violation of negative divine natural law), but if it is in fact remote, then what??

    Much seems to depend upon hot “direct” cooperation is defined (mere intention vs causal proximity to the evil vs other competing definitions).

    A very complicated matter, which after 19 months, I am still unable to form a certain conscience on.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #3 on: November 08, 2021, 07:26:49 AM »
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    • The jab is also likely to cause grave harm to one's health, especially considering the circuмstances of the scamdemic and subsequent drive to jab all of humanity. Big Pharma is not to be trusted -- that is just the beginning. The men behind the jab, and the scamdemic, are working for a world that is INCOMPATIBLE with the Catholic Faith. This jab, and hundreds of boosters and other jabs to follow, is a central part of their plan: A world without the Catholic Church, completely without freedom, a world with only 300 million people living in it, living in studio apartment-sized cells in tall skyscrapers, etc.

    Think: Communist China with their forced abortions, 1-child policy, organ harvesting of political dissidents, etc. -- only much, much worse. Red China is a utopia compared to the dystopian hell world they have planned for us.

    These men are working for satan. Full stop. We shouldn't go along with their satanic game TO ANY EXTENT, especially if going along with them (taking the jab) takes US out of the equation by killing/maiming us. There is no "necessity" to speak of because COVID is a scam. Whatever truth there is to the "covid" illness is best dealt with by the MANY legit treatments that exist for the disease.

    COVID is a pathetic excuse for a plague. There is NO justification for mandatory global prophylaxis, especially the authoritarian lengths they're going to right now (no job, no travel, no shopping, heavy fines, etc.)
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #4 on: November 08, 2021, 07:49:33 AM »
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    • 'Thus, if it is impossible to approach the dying to confer on them the sacraments without being oneself vaccinated, we should prefer the salvation of our neighbor to our own health or tranquility."

    But not if it costs us our salvation.  I always thought that the salvation of your own soul is the only legitimate act of selfishness allowed, and even mandated (to coin a phrase) and goes before the charity of a neighbor. Usually sacrificing oneself for others would be heroic and advantageous for the state of a soul, but taking a known abortion tainted vaccine would be detrimental to the soul of a priest. At best it muddies the waters of  charity. The old  "end doesn't justify the means" applies here.
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #5 on: November 08, 2021, 09:14:34 AM »
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    • If Bp. Fellay was vaxed, it was very likely with a pure saline dosage.   His handlers would make sure of this.

    Consider that if Fellay croaked on a flight, it would send tremors through the international trad movement.

    Fellay's vaccination is true to his character of appeasement to the false throne in Rome.
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #6 on: November 08, 2021, 10:02:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on November 08, 2021, 07:49:33 AM
    'Thus, if it is impossible to approach the dying to confer on them the sacraments without being oneself vaccinated, we should prefer the salvation of our neighbor to our own health or tranquility."

    But not if it costs us our salvation.  I always thought that the salvation of your own soul is the only legitimate act of selfishness allowed, and even mandated (to coin a phrase) and goes before the charity of a neighbor. Usually sacrificing oneself for others would be heroic and advantageous for the state of a soul, but taking a known abortion tainted vaccine would be detrimental to the soul of a priest. At best it muddies the waters of  charity. The old  "end doesn't justify the means" applies here.

    Yeah, the hierarchy of Charity goes:

    1. God
    2. Your soul
    3. Your neighbor’s soul
    4. Your body
    5. Your neighbor’s body

    With the Modernists’ fear of the “pandemic” they put #5 above 1, 2, and 4.

    With their “priests should get the jab to administer the sacraments” line they put #3 above 1 and 2. At least they are purporting to care about administering the sacraments for once. But they always twist themselves into knots with their lies...and end up on the wrong side of Catholic doctrine. 
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #7 on: November 08, 2021, 12:06:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: SperaInDeo on November 08, 2021, 10:02:45 AM
    Yeah, the hierarchy of Charity goes:

    1. God
    2. Your soul
    3. Your neighbor’s soul
    4. Your body
    5. Your neighbor’s body

    With the Modernists’ fear of the “pandemic” they put #5 above 1, 2, and 4.

    With their “priests should get the jab to administer the sacraments” line they put #3 above 1 and 2. At least they are purporting to care about administering the sacraments for once. But they always twist themselves into knots with their lies...and end up on the wrong side of Catholic doctrine.
    I wonder if you would want to revise your hierarchy according to what Jesus said in John 15:


    Quote
    12 This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    It would seem that simple material self-preservation ("Your body") would be lower than saving the life of your neighbor ("Your neighbor's body"). That said, I don't think taking the ClotShot/MOB will save anyone's body or soul. That is simply a NWO lie. 


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    Offline SperaInDeo

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #8 on: November 08, 2021, 12:15:53 PM »
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    • The list isn’t mine, but a traditional priest’s who took it from Church teaching.

    You are misunderstanding Jesus. He put His body (which they destroyed) below His neighbor’s soul, this is correct. Therefore it is 3 above 4 according to the gospel quote and in line with the list. They destroyed Christ’s body, not His soul, to save our souls, not our bodies - He is alluding to His passion. Probably the martyrdoms  of the apostles too.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #9 on: November 08, 2021, 12:22:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Angelus on November 08, 2021, 12:06:34 PM
    I wonder if you would want to revise your hierarchy according to what Jesus said in John 15:

    Laying down your life for another is indeed charity, but forfeiting your soul/salvation (e.g., if taking the jab is a mortal sin) is quite another thing.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #10 on: November 08, 2021, 12:28:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: SperaInDeo on November 08, 2021, 10:02:45 AM
    Yeah, the hierarchy of Charity goes:

    1. God
    2. Your soul
    3. Your neighbor’s soul
    4. Your body
    5. Your neighbor’s body

    With the Modernists’ fear of the “pandemic” they put #5 above 1, 2, and 4.

    With their “priests should get the jab to administer the sacraments” line they put #3 above 1 and 2. At least they are purporting to care about administering the sacraments for once. But they always twist themselves into knots with their lies...and end up on the wrong side of Catholic doctrine. 


    I have to interject -- this is a great theoretical conversation, but let's not forget for a moment that we are NOT in anything approaching a real pandemic. In fact, it's much worse than a simple non-pandemic. It's an ongoing social experiment/movement which is currently moving mankind into a much worse, much more explicit, much more violent implementation of godless materialism (Communism).

    Giving any lip service to this SCAM (calculated to bring about the Great Reset, the global reign of lucifer, and the dystopian hell of Communism to the entire world) is ITSELF a grave sin.

    The bad guys are working to destroy the economy, implement totalitarianism, sterilize the population, and herd us all like cattle into prison-like cities. What kind of sin would it be to help this plan progress more smoothly? To help them out a bit?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #11 on: November 08, 2021, 12:38:45 PM »
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    • I have never considered a theological issue so difficult.

    In my hierarchy of difficult issues, they run in this order (for me):

    6) Sedevacantism (consequences, implications);
    5) Predestination;
    4) True meaning of EENS (consequences, implications);
    3) Invincible ignorance (consequences, implications, application);
    2) Efficaciousness of grace outside the Church (consequences, implications, application);
    1) Liceity/Illiceity of the clot shot.

    PS: Yes, I realize there is some correlation between 4, 3, and 2.
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    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #12 on: November 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on November 08, 2021, 06:47:31 AM
    Show me a picture of him in Canada after October 30, or in France, and we will have hard facts.
    How many pontifical Masses were there at the Seminary typically aside from the obvious; Candlemas for tonsuring/receiving the cassock, ordinations to the major orders, etc.? You have your answer.

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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #13 on: November 08, 2021, 01:54:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Minnesota on November 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
    How many pontifical Masses were there at the Seminary typically aside from the obvious; Candlemas for tonsuring/receiving the cassock, ordinations to the major orders, etc.? You have your answer.

    What answer would that be??
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Bishop Fellay Vaxxed?
    « Reply #14 on: November 08, 2021, 02:19:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: Minnesota on November 08, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
    How many pontifical Masses were there at the Seminary typically aside from the obvious; Candlemas for tonsuring/receiving the cassock, ordinations to the major orders, etc.? You have your answer.

    There’s a full-time Bishop (Fellay) attached to the US seminary, so no travel required.

    Tissier is in Econe, so again, no travel required.

    de Gallareta is in Argentina, so again, no travel required.

    The Australian seminary closed, so no travel required.

    So no, your presumption of the bishops doing international travel to perform Pontifical Masses at the seminaries does not suffice, in the absence of sound evidence to support it.
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