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Author Topic: Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic  (Read 24532 times)

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Offline LordPhan

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Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2011, 11:26:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: pbax
    When I was in the seminary, a few years ago now, I can remember a talk given to us by a Priest or Bishop of the SSPX ,not too sure who, about the signs that lead to a priest leaving the SSPX. He said it starts of small and then grows. Example he might not read some of his brievery or maybe prefer lay peoples company rather than his brother priest, only small thing but can lead to disaster if not corrected.
    I guess that is how I see this crisis now, small things but put them together and…..! The lifting of the excommunications: Why did bishop Fellay ask for it when we in the eyes of the SSPX were not excommunicated in the first place? Then not seeing Archbishops name nor Bishop deCastro Meyer’s name maybe should of sounded alarms. The motu Propio The Priests were free to say it anyway, then the ordasity of calling it an extraordinary rite, and the novus ordo an ordinary rite, no no no things do not add up. What about Bishop Williamson treatment does not add up, like him or not he has not done anything that he would not have done when the Archbishop was alive. He is protecting the faith and explaining it. You look at the introduction of Maxy Krah into the SSPX and hell the alarm bells are getting louder and louder. The Dominican novus ordo sister that got permission from rome to join the traditional SSPX Dominicans. Can probably think of a lot more examples but that is enough for now.

    I ask myself where has rome changed from lets say 1988 till now to justify the SSPX returning and you no what, I can’t answer it, if anything rome is worse. They still are the artists in ambiguous writings and sucking up to those jews in my book and still canot be trusted. I cannot see too many good signs.


    I agree that Bishop Williamson has been mistreated, I am on his side, that has nothing to do with this thread however. I also do not like anything I have heard about Krah either. We are in agreement on these things.

    As for your question about the lifting of the excommunications, simply put, that is not what the SSPX demanded(this would be a better word though the truth would probably be a word in between what you said and I just said but I can't think of one right now that fits) that they declare the excommunications null and void. The Pope turned around and 'lifted' them. We don't consider that they were ever in effect in the first place. You are correct on this. However I am under the impression that Bishop Fellay did not think Rome would say yes to any of the conditions/demands whatever we want to call them.

    What is wrong with a nun converting to the true faith by joining the SSPX? Who cares whether or not she got permission?

    Offline LordPhan

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #46 on: October 22, 2011, 11:33:02 PM »
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  • As for the Moto Proprio, they didn't ask for the Moto  for the SSPX to be able to say the mass, they asked that the Mass be freed for all Priests without penalty. basically a declaration. All of these were conditions for the SSPX to talk with Rome about a deal.

    Essentially, Rome came to the SSPX wanting us to join them, the SSPX stated that they wouldn't even consider it unless 3 conditions were met.

    They fullfilled them, though as you say, they did so on their terms and not in the way the SSPX envisioned. But it is what it is.

    As I stated, I am not in favour personally of a deal unless Rome converts in full, but I am always in favour of attempting to convert them and anyone else, but especially them because the result of that would be an end to the Crisis sooner rather then later and thusly the Salvation of more souls.

    Edit: Of course if Rome converts in full then the SSPX disbands as per it's mission.


    Offline sedesvacans

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #47 on: October 23, 2011, 12:09:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    In another thread you denied communion with anyone saying an una cuм mass, that is a schismatic act, thusly you are no different then the Schismatics you just cited.

    It is neccesary to convert Rome to restore the Church to what it was, your lack of faith in the possibility of it happening shows a lack of faith in God.

    Athanasius faced tougher odds and succeeded, so too will we in time.

    Over time we will convert them then those who were heretics will be condemned as such, the reason the Sedecavantists do not want us to even try is because you are afraid we will succeed.


    Isn't it interesting that you cite my statement on the una cuм and in the very next sentence you talk about converting Rome? Una cuм who, then? Someone you need to convert? And convert from what?

    Did Athanasius make deals? What are you referring to? I would like to know.

    Sedevacantists are not afraid of success, but success comes from taking the high road, otherwise it is no success.

    I think conversion of Rome would be the most excellent thing in the last 50 years to happen on earth!

    But as Rome stands now, una cuм is damning to one's soul.

    BTW, Benedict is often quoted saying that his changes are directly opposed to the syllabus...He is fully aware of what he is promoting.

    Offline sedesvacans

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #48 on: October 23, 2011, 12:12:51 AM »
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  • i.e., why not mass una cuм Lutherans? or Jews? or Muslims?Don't we want to convert them?

    Offline s2srea

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #49 on: October 23, 2011, 09:23:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: sedesvacans
    i.e., why not mass una cuм Lutherans? or Jews? or Muslims?Don't we want to convert them?


    I think he answered your question in his last post:

    Quote
    because the result of that would be an end to the Crisis sooner rather then later and thusly the Salvation of more souls.


    Offline sedesvacans

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #50 on: October 23, 2011, 09:40:25 AM »
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  • But isn't mass "una cuм" someone heretical who needs to "convert" the same as putting ourselves in the same faith as that faithless person and doing the same thing as what JPII did at Assissi?

    In the good Friday mass, we pray for all heretics, Jews, etc., but that is not the same as "una cuм".

    Is it?

    Offline s2srea

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #51 on: October 23, 2011, 09:52:03 AM »
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  • What are those to do with Rome who have the ability to convert her? Not 'try' to convert her? Sure, the fruit may, and I believe, never be good, and it will be the Immaculate Heart of our Blessed Mother who will eventually prevail. However, wouldn't it be imprudent to leave Rome to destroy herself now. I know the Saints have said tell someone twice of their error, then leave them to their demise, but this isn't a plain ol' someone. This is what's left of the Church in Rome. I think its bigger than what I can ever be able to explain, not being a theologian.

    Offline Gregory I

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #52 on: October 23, 2011, 10:50:47 AM »
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  • There are typically two schools of thought regarding this, both of which are valid:

    1. He who communes with heretics makes himself a heretic, by implicitly wishing them Godspeed in their works. We should retire from the company of heretics and allow ourselves freedom from the corrupting influences of Satan.

    2. Those heretics may never hear the truth proclaimed unless we tell them. Thus, we will be salt to the conciliar church, and work for renewal from the inside, whether by keeping our traditionalism quiet and seeking to occupy positions at CCD and RCIA where we will have the oppurtunity to plant the seeds of Tradition; or by simply not abandoning the Novus Ordo PEOPLE, although we may despise their "priests" and masses.

    I have been invited by conciliar priests to teach CCD before. It boggles my mind what I would do...Probably give them all copies of the Douay Catechism and Go line by line...

    My Point is that there have been saints on both sides of the fence; I.E. the Great Western Schism, especialyl St. Vincent Ferrer, who defended the Anti-Pope Benedict XIII and was arguably one of the greatest saints who ever lived.

    I like the idea of Not communing with heretics. But I also like the idea of not abandoning these people to their ignorance, and if there is something I can do and say, or even if there is a position I could take that could help save souls...

    What do you think?


    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #53 on: October 23, 2011, 11:36:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    We cannot be excommunicated, once again you fail to understand the laws of the church


    OK, I did not feel I needed to elaborate on this point as I thought it was obvious.

    OF COURSE, no one can be excommunicated from the Vatican II Church because they possess no power to do so. That is obvious , to the sede.

    But to the SSPX of today, how is that possible? You can't say the Pope is the Pope, yet not then respect his orders of excommunication on your group if he in fact does this. I am not the only one seeing this glaring issue...

    Offline PartyIsOver221

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #54 on: October 23, 2011, 11:38:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: LordPhan
    I suggest you scroll down and read the thread where I posted the St. Thomas on Obedience. You display false obedience like the Neo-Cath's, you think that a Pope has more authority then God, that is very wrong. If the Pope contradicts God, you must disobey him. If an contradicts an order of a Pope then the Pope's authority prevails unless he contradicts his superior God who is above all men always.



    Well who is denying this? Go read the post I just made, and in reality you are the one with a brain in a state of duplicity.

    If Ratzinger is the Pope, you must acknowledge his orders of excommunication should it come to that. Because he is the Pope, and thus the Pope when ordained by God speaks on behalf of His Church.

    If he is not the Pope, then you are free to sidestep any reality of being excommunicated from the Catholic Church because Ratzinger was ipso facto never the Pope.

    This is not very hard to understand, yet it blows again the underpinnings of your mindset, LordPhan.

    Offline LordPhan

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #55 on: October 23, 2011, 04:03:44 PM »
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  • Once again you only show how little you understand Catholic Law and the faith POI.

    A Pope cannot order me to do anything that is contrary to what God Teaches, furthermore his orders are invalid if they are unjust, his orders are invalid if they are against the law and contary to the spirit of the law.

    I have posted the parts of the Summa on Epikea, Obedience and Judgement I suggest you read them.

    I suggest you read the entire Summa actually. I think I stated that earlier.


    Offline sedesvacans

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #56 on: October 23, 2011, 10:44:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I


    I like the idea of Not communing with heretics. But I also like the idea of not abandoning these people to their ignorance, and if there is something I can do and say, or even if there is a position I could take that could help save souls...

    What do you think?


    I would never be in favor of abandoning anyone to their ignorance and if anyone has had success in waking novus ordos up about what is going on, I think that might be a worthy page in and of itself, and is what we all pray for!

    ...but I believe that does not constitute a justification for a una cuм mass, which is an entirely different point, isn't it?.


    Offline Charles

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #57 on: October 23, 2011, 11:01:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Gregory I
    There are typically two schools of thought regarding this, both of which are valid:

    1. He who communes with heretics makes himself a heretic, by implicitly wishing them Godspeed in their works. We should retire from the company of heretics and allow ourselves freedom from the corrupting influences of Satan.

    2. Those heretics may never hear the truth proclaimed unless we tell them. Thus, we will be salt to the conciliar church, and work for renewal from the inside, whether by keeping our traditionalism quiet and seeking to occupy positions at CCD and RCIA where we will have the oppurtunity to plant the seeds of Tradition; or by simply not abandoning the Novus Ordo PEOPLE, although we may despise their "priests" and masses.

    I have been invited by conciliar priests to teach CCD before. It boggles my mind what I would do...Probably give them all copies of the Douay Catechism and Go line by line...

    My Point is that there have been saints on both sides of the fence; I.E. the Great Western Schism, especialyl St. Vincent Ferrer, who defended the Anti-Pope Benedict XIII and was arguably one of the greatest saints who ever lived.

    I like the idea of Not communing with heretics. But I also like the idea of not abandoning these people to their ignorance, and if there is something I can do and say, or even if there is a position I could take that could help save souls...

    What do you think?


    Excellent question...but one I can't answer.

    I assisted a diocesan TLM today. The old priest in his 90's who used to pray the Mass there doesn't do so now, due to his health, and the Pastor there who now prays the TLM is suspect. He has eliminated the Tuesday and Thursday TLM noon Mass. And today, instead of a sermon, he spends 20 minutes explaining the upcoming revisions for the NO. Why ?  He said at some point we would be going to the NO for weddings, funerals, baptisms, etc. That was his reasoning.

    I found myself wishing I had my rosary with me to pray while he praised the "wonderful changes" .

    I dunno. In that parish, it would be tough to open many eyes.

    Offline Diego

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #58 on: October 23, 2011, 11:21:03 PM »
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  • Rorate Caeli?

    A common, though by no means a universal, failing of converts is to forget that they were wrong before, so they should have the humility and prudence to doubt themselves—not to doubt the Faith, but to doubt themselves (and their pontifications).

    The problem is, of course, exacerbated in those who cannot leave their racial conceits behind.

    New Christians, New Catholics, beware!

    Offline Diego

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    Bishop Fellay: The Pope May Declare Us Schismatic
    « Reply #59 on: October 23, 2011, 11:36:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ethelred
    Well, not just since early 2009 I've absolutely no reason to trust Bishop Fellay or his assistants, namely Fr Pfluger. They brought us Krah, and that's just the one bad egg most Internet users who're aware of the Krah-Gate know of! There are others, too.


    Fr. Marcus Heggenberger