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Author Topic: Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass  (Read 7490 times)

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Offline Lourdes Fatima

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Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
« on: January 18, 2013, 01:24:30 AM »
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  • The Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Antonio Canizares, has revealed something a great number of people insist in not believe. The Cardinal said that even those who follow the Society of St. Pius X, when they participate in a Mass celebrated properly, affirmed the high prelate, they [SSPX] say that there would be no need for this separation with the Catholic Church if she [the Mass] was like that in all places." Cardinal Cañizares then explained that, according to the testimony of Bishop Bernard Fellay, current superior of the Fraternity, Archbishop Lefebvre obviously would not want to break up if the mass was celebrated by all according to "the strictest form" of the new Missal of Paul VI (1963-1978).


    Why am I not surprised?


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #1 on: January 18, 2013, 02:05:23 AM »
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  • Excellent post to confirm the sort of discussions that were going on.

    Of course they were kept secret!

    People who want to be duped follow the neotrads!


    Offline Stubborn

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #2 on: January 18, 2013, 04:12:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lourdes Fatima



    The Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Antonio Canizares, has revealed something a great number of people insist in not believe. The Cardinal said that even those who follow the Society of St. Pius X, when they participate in a Mass celebrated properly, affirmed the high prelate, they [SSPX] say that there would be no need for this separation with the Catholic Church if she [the Mass] was like that in all places." Cardinal Cañizares then explained that, according to the testimony of Bishop Bernard Fellay, current superior of the Fraternity, Archbishop Lefebvre obviously would not want to break up if the mass was celebrated by all according to "the strictest form" of the new Missal of Paul VI (1963-1978).


    Why am I not surprised?


    At the moment, I won't take the NO Cardinal's word for it that the SSPX said such a thing.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Against the Heresies

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #3 on: January 18, 2013, 04:15:08 AM »
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  • Exact translation please (3rd paragraph):

    Si Lefebvre hubiera visto la Misa bien celebrada no hubiese dado el paso que dio

    Quote
    El Purpurado español contó el hecho a manera de anécdota: "en una ocasión vino a verme entre otros, Mons. (Bernard) Fellay, que preside a los de la Hermandad de San Pío X y me dijo, ‘venimos de una abadía que queda junto a Florencia. Si Mons. Lefebvre hubiese conocido como se celebraba allí, no hubiese dado el paso que dio’. Ese misal que se celebraba allí es el Misal de Pablo VI en su realidad más estricta".

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #4 on: January 18, 2013, 05:25:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lourdes Fatima



    The Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Antonio Canizares, has revealed something a great number of people insist in not believe.

    The Cardinal said that even those who follow the Society of St. Pius X, when they participate in a Mass celebrated properly, affirmed the high prelate, they [SSPX] say that there would be no need for this separation with the Catholic Church if she [the Mass] was like that in all places."  

    Cardinal Cañizares then explained that, according to the testimony of Bishop Bernard Fellay, current superior of the Fraternity, Archbishop Lefebvre obviously would not want to break up if the mass was celebrated by all according to "the strictest form" of the new Missal of Paul VI (1963-1978).


    Why am I not surprised?


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    What is the source of this quote, above?
    "...Canizares, has revealed something a great number of people insist in
    not believe."  That is improper grammar, so this must be a machine
    translation of something.

    "...obviously would not want to break up..."  - This sounds incomplete.  
    What is the object of the "break up?"  Could these words have been
    extracted from a larger context, regarding a split within the Society?

    The actual video has this written below it:



    Published on Jan 16, 2013

    http://en.romereports.com This is Spanish Cardinal Antonio Cañizares. When it comes to the liturgy, he says some of the changes that were called on by the Second Vatican Council, are still pending.

    But if those changes are applied correctly, he says, even traditionalists groups, like that of Lefebvrians, would not feel mistrust.

        Category

        News & Politics
        License

        Standard YouTube License




    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    The website http://en.romereports.com
    has the following (I played the video again and verified that this is the
    script that the reporters used
    to make the video. It only varies by a few
    rather insignificant words):




    January 16, 2013. (Romereports.com) This is Spanish Cardinal Antonio Cañizares. When it comes to the liturgy, he says some of the changes that were called on by the Second Vatican Council, are still pending. But if those changes are applied correctly, he says, even traditionalists groups, like that of Lefebvrians, would not feel mistrust.  

    [The reporter says "Society of St. Pius X" instead of "Lefebvrians"]

    CARD. ANTONIO CAÑIZARES
    Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship  
    “For example, when members of the Society of St. Pius X, founded by Archbishop Lefebvre, participate in a Eucharistic celebration, that's celebrated well, they say if it were celebrated like this in all places, our division from the Catholic Church, would not have been necessary.”

    Cardinal Cañizares is the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship. He gave a closing statement at Spain's Embassy to the Holy See, after a series of talks about the Second Vatican Council. He says, reforms still need to be carried out, but reforms is not always synonymous with change.

    CARD. ANTONIO CAÑIZARES
    Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship
    “Right now, the most urgent reform is one that deals with liturgical formation. At this point, we lack this type of formation.”

    The prefect says the future of the Church, largely depends on deeply understanding and explaining the liturgy and sacraments to others.

    CARD. ANTONIO CAÑIZARES
    Prefect, Congregation for Divine Worship  
    “I would say there is no future for the Church and for humanity if there isn't a renewed sense of liturgy and a sense of truth in liturgical celebrations. In the liturgy, we see the action of God. That same God who is present and carries out His mission of salvation.”

    It's precisely this point that the Church is emphasizing through the New Evangelization. The need to transmit the message of the Gospel, so that people may apply it, in a modern way to their daily lives.


    BR/KLH
     MG
    GdP
    -PR
    -U:RCarr






    The reporters do not pronounce Lefebvre well at all.  Maybe they do not
    want to learn how to say it, and that's why they substituted SSPX.

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline inspiritu20

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #5 on: January 18, 2013, 05:33:10 AM »
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  • Quote



    “For example, when members of the Society of St. Pius X, founded by Archbishop Lefebvre, participate in a Eucharistic celebration, that's celebrated well, they say if it were celebrated like this in all places, our division from the Catholic Church, would not have been necessary.”



    Members of the SSPX = Bishops, Priests and Third Order Members

    Eucharistic Celebration of the SSPX = Traditional Latin Mass



    The SSPX don't celebrate the NO Mass.  They don't concelebrate either.

    No doubt that there wouldn't have been a split if the rest of the Church still celebrated the TLM.

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #6 on: January 18, 2013, 05:43:05 AM »
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  • Then he's saying the SSPX says they are separate only because the Old mass is not celebrated everywhere?



    Offline Stubborn

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #7 on: January 18, 2013, 06:17:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: Telesphorus
    Then he's saying the SSPX says they are separate only because the Old mass is not celebrated everywhere?




    Seems like that's what he is saying to me.

    Darn modernists - can never tell wth they mean - I don't trust him.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline sspxbvm

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #8 on: January 18, 2013, 06:29:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lourdes Fatima



    The Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Antonio Canizares, has revealed something a great number of people insist in not believe. The Cardinal said that even those who follow the Society of St. Pius X, when they participate in a Mass celebrated properly, affirmed the high prelate, they [SSPX] say that there would be no need for this separation with the Catholic Church if she [the Mass] was like that in all places." Cardinal Cañizares then explained that, according to the testimony of Bishop Bernard Fellay, current superior of the Fraternity, Archbishop Lefebvre obviously would not want to break up if the mass was celebrated by all according to "the strictest form" of the new Missal of Paul VI (1963-1978).


    Why am I not surprised?


      Aren't we suppose to have 2 or 3 proofs before we condemn? It fits with everything else happening, yes, but we should have more proof. One more proof is if Bishop Fellay starts stumbling in his words again when asked about it.

    Offline Faber

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #9 on: January 18, 2013, 07:55:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Against the Heresies
    Exact translation please (3rd paragraph):

    Si Lefebvre hubiera visto la Misa bien celebrada no hubiese dado el paso que dio

    Quote
    El Purpurado español contó el hecho a manera de anécdota: "en una ocasión vino a verme entre otros, Mons. (Bernard) Fellay, que preside a los de la Hermandad de San Pío X y me dijo, ‘venimos de una abadía que queda junto a Florencia. Si Mons. Lefebvre hubiese conocido como se celebraba allí, no hubiese dado el paso que dio’. Ese misal que se celebraba allí es el Misal de Pablo VI en su realidad más estricta".


    Quote
    [Msgr Fellay said to me] ‘we came from an abbey near Florence. If Msgr Lefebvre had known how they celebrated there, he would not have taken the step that he took.’

    Offline bowler

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #10 on: January 18, 2013, 08:24:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Faber
    Quote from: Against the Heresies
    Exact translation please (3rd paragraph):

    Si Lefebvre hubiera visto la Misa bien celebrada no hubiese dado el paso que dio

    Quote
    El Purpurado español contó el hecho a manera de anécdota: "en una ocasión vino a verme entre otros, Mons. (Bernard) Fellay, que preside a los de la Hermandad de San Pío X y me dijo, ‘venimos de una abadía que queda junto a Florencia. Si Mons. Lefebvre hubiese conocido como se celebraba allí, no hubiese dado el paso que dio’. Ese misal que se celebraba allí es el Misal de Pablo VI en su realidad más estricta".


    Quote
    [Msgr Fellay said to me] ‘we came from an abbey near Florence. If Msgr Lefebvre had known how they celebrated there, he would not have taken the step that he took.’


    The posted video that started this thread did not mention Fellay, however, this article that you linked here does say exactly what you translated above that  "Msgr Fellay said to me".

    Let me add that I've said it many times, that had the Novus Ordo been practiced in Latin, facing the tabernacle, with same vestments, no change in church architecture, and everything the same as the Traditional mass was(with no communion in the hand, without eucharistic ministers, etc), that there would be no traditionalist movement today. HOWEVER, this was never the intention, the intention was a change the mass and the Catholic Church to what we have today. The dreamers of good will (whoever they are) think that the changes were just instituted the wrong way, and that "if" it had been done right, everything would have been Utopia. They are dreamers, or this is all they can say without loosing their job. The Novus Ordo the way it is practiced today IS the way it was intended. If we change the traditional Latin mass today to the "perfectly done" Novus Ordo, it will ultimately end up in the same place as the original changes in the 1960's did. Just look at the original video again, and you will see at the end that Card. Canizares is "celebrating" the Novus Ordo facing the people, and giving communion in the hand, and not one person is kneeling for communion. "By their deeds you shall know them".


    Offline PAT317

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 08:45:40 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Lourdes Fatima



    The Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Cardinal Antonio Canizares, has revealed something a great number of people insist in not believe. The Cardinal said that even those who follow the Society of St. Pius X, when they participate in a Mass celebrated properly, affirmed the high prelate, they [SSPX] say that there would be no need for this separation with the Catholic Church if she [the Mass] was like that in all places." Cardinal Cañizares then explained that, according to the testimony of Bishop Bernard Fellay, current superior of the Fraternity, Archbishop Lefebvre obviously would not want to break up if the mass was celebrated by all according to "the strictest form" of the new Missal of Paul VI (1963-1978).


    Quote from: Telesphorus
    Then he's saying the SSPX says they are separate only because the Old mass is not celebrated everywhere?


    Seems like that's what he is saying to me.

    Darn modernists - can never tell wth they mean - I don't trust him.

    Quote from: Stubborn

    At the moment, I won't take the NO Cardinal's word for it that the SSPX said such a thing.


    I disagree that they are talking about the Old Mass.  My reading of it is that if the New Mass were "celebrated by all according to "the strictest form" of the new Missal of Paul VI", i.e., in Latin, facing the altar etc..., then we'd be okay with it.  And I disagree.  I remember Michael Davies saying once that Traditional Catholics would rather have the old Mass celebrated in English than the New Mass celebrated in Latin.  The only sense in which I agree with the Cardinal's statement is, that if the New Mass had been celebrated in its most "traditional" way, there might not have been such a strong Traditional movement, because the harm would have been much more subtle.  I've often thought that if the only two choices in 1969 were clown Masses vs. the Tridentine Mass, the vast majority would have rejected the New Mass.  So in a strange way, we can be thankful that most celebrations of the New Mass are as bad as they are, so that the difference is more obvious.  

    I agree with Stubborn; you can't tell what they mean for sure and I don't trust him, BUT...

    Quote from: sspxbvm
     Aren't we suppose to have 2 or 3 proofs before we condemn? It fits with everything else happening, yes, but we should have more proof. One more proof is if Bishop Fellay starts stumbling in his words again when asked about it.


    I agree.  If this were said during the Archbishop's lifetime, he would have made a very clear, straightforward statement, saying what he really said and believes.  If Bishop Fellay doesn't come out and say, "no, that's not true" very clearly, then we have our answer.  

    Edited to add:  I wrote the above before reading bowler's post just above, and it seems we're thinking along similar lines.  

    Offline bowler

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 09:10:58 AM »
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  • I remember reading recently here on Cathinfo that Fr. Cekada said that when he was in the seminary in Econe, that they used the 1968 missal, the last missal before the Novus Ordo. That the seminarians complained enough so that Abp. Lefebvre went to the 1962.

    I also remember reading that Abp. Lefebvre celebrated the Novus Ordo for a while before he started the seminary.

    All of that means nothing today, and is analogous to us talking about how St. Peter betrayed our Lord, or how he used double speak with the Jєωιѕн converts. Abp. Lefebvre, like St. Peter, learned from his mistakes, and there is no need for us to make the same mistakes, just because he did it.

    Offline inprincipio

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 09:12:27 AM »
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  • The one thing modernists ignore and most traditionalists forget is that it is about the FAITH, the FAITH, and the FAITH.
    Amen quippe dico vobis donec transeat caelum et terra iota unum aut unus apex non praeteribit a lege donec omnia fiant  (For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. )

    Offline inprincipio

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    Bishop Fellay reported to have accepted the New Mass
    « Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 09:15:19 AM »
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  • Bishop and his cohorts sound like modernists.  You just cannot get a straight answer out of them.
    Amen quippe dico vobis donec transeat caelum et terra iota unum aut unus apex non praeteribit a lege donec omnia fiant  (For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. )