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Author Topic: Bishop Fellay and the General Council  (Read 3008 times)

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Offline Ite ad Thomam

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Bishop Fellay and the General Council
« on: May 22, 2012, 04:18:50 PM »
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  • On an Experiment of Tradition

    It is being asked, is the present readiness of the Superior General and the General Council--May, 2012--to make a canonical agreement with Rome in the near future in accord with the policies and spirit of Archbishop Lefebvre and the Society of St. Pius X?  It would seem no.

    Objection 1.   Three of the four bishops ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre have formally expressed opposition for a near-future agreement.
     
    Objection 2.    It is recalled how in 1988 the Archbishop strongly rejected an agreement due to the gulf between the Society and Rome on matters of doctrine.  An agreement would have meant ѕυιcιdє for the Society.

    Objection 3.   It is argued that even Pope Benedict cannot be trusted by an agreement because he shows a habit of subjectivism.

    Objection 4.  Furthermore, The Archbishop opposed the entire Council up until his death characterizing Vatican II as the French Revolution in the Church, and not just admitting of a few doctrinal errors such as religious liberty, ecuмenism, or collegiality.  A near-future agreement reduces criticism of Vatican II down to an academic critique of a few of its errors.

    Objection 5.  A near-present agreement whereby the Society is accepted “as is” without compromising to Vatican II, and continuing with full freedom as it has, would still be a “purely practical agreement.”

    On the contrary, Bishop Alfonso de Galareta director of the Rome-SSPX Doctrinal Commission recently stated (2009) in a sermon regarding the commission:  "Once again, this commission’s objective is not to reach some kind of doctrinal agreement, which would be deleterious. No. We are simply going to bear witness to the faith, defend it, do the good we can, and at any rate we shall defend the honor of God, the honor of Our Lord, and the honor of the Church, which is the main thing, if you have understood what I said at the beginning [of this sermon] on the mediation and function of the priest, and that is what matters.”  

    And, he concluded by saying  "We do know clearly what we are not disposed to accept. If we do not know perfectly how things may evolve, on the other hand we do know very clearly what we have no intention of doing under any circuмstance: firstly, to yield on matters of doctrine, and, secondly, to make a purely practical agreement. With these conditions and with the disposition which is theirs to agree for the first time to discuss the Council, for this is indeed the first time they have given us the opportunity to present to them a profound doctrinal critique based on the Church’s perennial magisterium—it’s the first time!”  

    I answer that, we should go back to the Founder of our Society of St. Pius X, who was St. Athanasius for our times, His Excellency Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre who was chosen by God to be one of the few bishops in the world to faithfully transmit the Tradition of the Church during and after Vatican II.  Divine Providence chose him truly as the leader of the Church Remnant.  He was the greatest of bishop-saints!  This same Archbishop never changed his specific attitude which guided his life, to remain uncompromising on the Faith but ever attached to Rome without having a hardened heart to it.  

    He never entertained formally subscribing to nor imitating the sedevacantist segment of the traditional movement.  He remained vigorous in his fight against sedevacantism in its theories and in its spirit, firstly by guarding against it within his own Society he founded.  However, it is the same sedevacantist movement outside of the Society and among a minority within the Society that, while disagreeing fundamentally with the Society, has opposed talks between the Society and Rome, especially under the present Superior General and since 2000.  They object to the moto proprio, lifting of the decree of excommunications, and intent of the doctrinal talks because they have the sedevacantist spirit.  They reject the authority of the Holy Father.  The tend to work against all present authority, especially that of institutions.  They no longer believe the present Institution is the Catholic Church. Thus, they will naturally oppose a priori a canonical agreement.  Theirs is a spirit of independence.

    It is the sedevacantist spirit that has tried to divide Society chapels all along and is now trying to do so when Divine Providence seems to have chosen the present time for a holy solution between the Society and the Holy Father, who is true Pope!  We all have believed all along that ultimately to bring an end to the apostacy and Crisis the Holy Father, as Vicar of Christ, must do it.  For the Society Pope Benedict is Pope.  If this Pope is approving of the Society to continue the cause of Tradition as it has and is, without doctrinal compromises, a simple but profound requirement sought by the Society from the beginning, then Divine Providence is choosing the present time to formally begin the work of Tradition from the Pope himself.

    Answer to 1) It is evident that one of the three bishops is the author of the letter to the General Council and at least partly behind a public leak of this letter and the letter of the Superior General, which strongly suggests he is the main force behind this letter, rather than the two other bishops who signed the letter. Yet, all three bishops have generally maintained obedience to their Superior General. They are free to express to him their opinion, as long as they do not try to subvert his authority publically.  Considering the fact all three have followed Bishop Fellay since 1994 without public opposition, and considering the character and attitudes of the three bishops all of these years, it is unreasonable to think the three will publically resist an agreement if it is made, verses merely privately opposing it at the current moment.  Furthermore, the two letters are private letters and in confidence.   In order to justify a public leak, one would have to examine the two letters and ask “Are the three bishops stating they will resist an agreement?  Are they demonstrating that an agreement clearly is an objective doctrinal compromise betraying the Archbishop and the Society?”  Finally, if Bishop Fellay and the General Council has truly and explicitly contradicted the policy and spirit of the Archbishop regarding a canonical solution, and of the district superiors' chapters these last eighteen years, then why was he chosen by the Archbishop to be a member of the Society's Council, to be consecrated Bishop, to be elected as Superior General in 1994, and again in 2006? Ultimately, the question is:  can it reasonably be demonstrated that it has been the policy of the Society to never sign an agreement until Rome begins to formally correct the doctrinal errors of Vatican II?

    Answer to 2)  In 1988,as related by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais in his authoritative biography of Archbishop Lefebve, specifically in the chapters covering the Archbishop's life from 1988 until his death in 1991, the bishop explains in great detail what the Archbishop said and did regarding relations with Rome.  On no page whatsoever can it be shown that the Archbishop would not accept an agreement until the Roman authorities began to convert back to Tradition, formally correcting the doctrinal errors of Vatican II.  In fact he said during this period that what he had hoped for at least was that the Society be allowed to continue in an "experiment of Tradition" as long as from the beginning there were no compromises to the conciliar errors still held in Rome.  For the Archbishop, according to Bishop de Mallerais, the reason he decided to reject an agreement was because he believed the negotiations at that time were disingenuous to the cause of the Society, as is evident in the game played over consecrating bishops.  He judged it imprudent to make an agreement during the time of 1988 because it seemed to him that the negotiations were not honest.  

    Answer to 3)  Archbishop Lefebvre maintained relations with the Pope and hope for a canonical solution as long as the Society is not asked to compromise to doctrinal error.  He did not expect that the Crisis be resolved before an agreement; rather he hoped that the Crisis be resolved in part by means of an agreement.    Traditionalist Catholics must place our trust in: God, the Papacy, the Society’s Superior General and Council, and the Society superiors.   We pray for and await a holy canonical agreement.  If that agreement, as Bishop Fellay most recently explained to all the Society priests, does not require compromise to the doctrinal errors, the Society is given freedom to continue the work of Tradition as it has and is, and if there are not new demands that require compromise, then the Society is prepared to accept it.  The docuмent which establishes such an uncompromised agreement would then come from Our Lord Jesus Christ through his Vicar on Earth and can me mounted on the walls of all our chapels.  

    Answer to 4) How the Society is allowed to criticize Vatican II will depend on the Holy Father’s decision in a canonical agreement, which will not be accepted by the Superior General, as he says, unless the Society is not required to accept the Council’s errors and may continue to freely work in its criticism of the Council as it always has, which includes characterizing the Council as the French Revolution in the Church.  Archbishop laid the groundwork for a response to the Council.  He said to use the criterion of Tradition in accepting all in the Council in accord with it, clarifying everything that is ambiguous, and rejecting all that is in contradiction to it.

    Answer to 5) Bishop Alfonso de Galereta has been the director of the Rome-SSPX doctrinal commission.  The first phase of the commission has come to a close, but the commission has not been permanently closed.  The goal of the doctrinal commission has been in part to reach a canonical agreement.  The good bishop explained the commission to the faithful in his 2009 sermon.  At no time did this bishop say that an agreement must be based on the Vatican starting to formally correct Vatican II in order for that agreement to not be “purely practical.”


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #1 on: May 22, 2012, 04:35:21 PM »
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  • Wow, the "answers" the objections seem to be evading the fundamental points.

    http://www.tagtele.com/videos/voir/36078/1

    Quote
    He judged it imprudent to make an agreement during the time of 1988 because it seemed to him that the negotiations were not honest.  


    And now things are different?  Now Bishop Fellay and Benedict XVI are "honest" with one another? And that's why they keep their discussions secret?  And why suddenly we hear approval of Vatican II?

     
    Quote
    If that agreement, as Bishop Fellay most recently explained to all the Society priests, does not require compromise to the doctrinal errors, the Society is given freedom to continue the work of Tradition as it has and is, and if there are not new demands that require compromise, then the Society is prepared to accept it.


    That is of course, totally unconvincing, because we've already seen the SSPX change its disposition towards error.

    Quote
    which includes characterizing the Council as the French Revolution in the Church.


    Except he has said what was condemned in the Council wasn't really in the Council.  Yves Congar said it was an "October Revolution."  Bishop Fellay said in an interview it will be incorporated into the Tradition of the Church.

    Quote
    The first phase of the commission has come to a close, but the commission has not been permanently closed.  The goal of the doctrinal commission has been in part to reach a canonical agreement.  The good bishop explained the commission to the faithful in his 2009 sermon.  At no time did this bishop say that an agreement must be based on the Vatican starting to formally correct Vatican II in order for that agreement to not be “purely practical.”


    The SSPX plays fast and loose with the truth and with the past and what they've said in the past.  We've been told these discussions are not the business of the Faithful.  Then what is the point?  They are a farce.  We've been told again and again a purely practical agreement is pointless, that the purpose of the discussions is not to reach a practical agreement.  Is my memory bad?  I really doubt it.  Must we look up and double check everything these people say nowadays?  I mean, the equivocations seem to be deliberately deceptive if you ask me.

    I don't see any serious answers to the objections.  None at all.

    Listen to the words of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    Rome has lost the Faith.  Rome is in apostasy. That is the fundamental issue, that is the only issue.  There is no other issue that matters.


    Offline Matthew

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #2 on: May 22, 2012, 04:48:47 PM »
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  • Don't let the name "Go to (St.) Thomas (Aquinas)" fool you.

    He's not a tower of reason, he's not bulletproof or 100% rational in his arguments, and he's certainly not a master intellect.

    He might imitate superficially the style of St. Thomas Aquinas, but his arguments are no more sound than any Accordista that has made an appearance on CathInfo -- male or female.
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    Offline Ite ad Thomam

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #3 on: May 22, 2012, 05:02:35 PM »
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  • I agree.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »
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  • Same tired argument accusing those who oppose the sellout of being sedevacantists.

    I oppose the sellout, and am clearly no sedevacantist.

    How do you account for that?

    Archbishop Lefebvre opposed a sellout, and he also was no sedevacantist.

    How do you account for that?
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #5 on: May 22, 2012, 06:33:01 PM »
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  • Gee whiz, Matthew, are you sure you want to be so hard on the guy, I mean, what if he were here to defend himself???

    Quote from: Ite ad Thomam
    I agree.


    Well, then, so much for that theory.......................... :sign-surrender:
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #6 on: May 22, 2012, 08:56:17 PM »
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  • Yeah, must be the same EM from Ignis.

    Matthew, there is a reason EM was banned from Ignis Ardens. He was banned for his dogmatic rallying against those who are against a deal, not to mention his obsession over sedevacantism. He won't add much to this forum.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #7 on: May 22, 2012, 09:19:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: EM20
    I was banned simply because I tried to stop the sedevacantists taking over that forum as they have with this.


    You can't fight every battle.

    Quote
    The problem was that the person who does the banning is very sympathetic to the sedevacantists because he does not hold the position of the Society, that Benedict XVI is certainly the Pope, but that maybe he is (SSPX position), or maybe he isn't (sedevacantist view), so for him the sede position is equally legitimate.


    I think GS merely thought the sede position is POSSIBLE, as Archbishop LeFebvre did. Furthermore, I like GS because he opposes a deal with Rome and supports the other three Bishops. You are another dogmatic Bishop Fellay supporter, telling us over at IA that we "should all be ashamed of ourselves" for criticizing his ACTIONS.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #8 on: May 22, 2012, 10:03:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: EcclesiaMilitans20
    I support only the Truth,


    This is the truth:

    Rome has lost the Faith

    Quote
    and I do not take kindly to calumnies (nor should anyone), especially those directed at priests and bishops.


    What is being said is not calumny, but the truth.

    The truth is that Bishop Fellay is going the wrong way.

    Quote
    In fact, I have a great sympathy for Bishop Williamson, but also for all the Society bishops.
    Those who should be ashamed of themselves are those who are calumniating, detracting and insulting the dignity of a bishop of the Holy Mother Church. They have no real material to criticize his actions so they make some up, or just start attacking his person, which is despicable.


    Those who are blindly loyal to clerical perfidy are the reason that the Church is in crisis.

    Offline Ethelred

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #9 on: May 23, 2012, 02:23:18 AM »
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  • Will the SSPX general chapter (general superior's halftime) be held in June or July 2012, as announced earlier (can't remember where, however...) ?

    I heard rumours it had been canceled because Bp Fellay could fear his dethronement, but other rumours say these rumours are just, well, rumours. Ahem.

    What if the New-SSPX will already be part of the New-Church by then? Wouldn't that make any general chapter redundant?

    Offline Incredulous

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #10 on: May 23, 2012, 08:48:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ethelred
    Will the SSPX general chapter (general superior's halftime) be held in June or July 2012, as announced earlier (can't remember where, however...) ?

    I heard rumours it had been canceled because Bp Fellay could fear his dethronement, but other rumours say these rumours are just, well, rumours. Ahem.

    What if the New-SSPX will already be part of the New-Church by then? Wouldn't that make any general chapter redundant?



    I'm guessing the neoSSPX leaders will try to cancel the General Chapter
    meeting and wait for the Pope's announcement.
    Then hide behind the mantle of Rome.  It fits their political style, to date.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Matthew

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    Bishop Fellay and the General Council
    « Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 02:42:10 AM »
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  • Someone on Ignis Ardens nailed this one -- he took the time to say what I was  too busy to compose. He did a very good job:
    (Yes, Ite Ad Thomam posted the same thing on IA)


    Quote
    This has to be the most outrageous misuse of the Scholastic method I have ever seen.

    Firstly, you are not arguing a doctrinal question, but a matter of policy.

    Secondly, none of your objections, which you clearly manufactured, bothered to cite any authority (thus demonstrating that you manufactured them); however, authorities could easily be cited (especially Abp. Levebvre) to justify certain assertions, as Mr. Sarto made plain when he responded with laughter at some of your own nakedly gratuitous assertions.

    Further, you do cite authories in your counter-argument, thus granting yourself a privilege denied to your (manufactured) opponents' objections. Mr. Sarto again makes this obvious by providing you with the arguments (quotes) from authority.

    Finally, your first course of action should have been to actually state your thesis here, then wait for any objection(s) to it. This would have avoided the appearance of a fixed, biased and manufactured argument, which also insults the intelligence of your audience.

    To put this bluntly, you created a straw-man, drowned him in gasoline and then burned him. Congrats! You destroyed your opponent.

    M advice: Start from scratch. Poll (real!) objections first, then draft your final argument. In this manner you can learn all the opinions and not make grossly erroneous statements such as Abp. Lefebvre persecuting sedevacantists as a policy - the Society today doesn't even have a policy of doing that, which should have given you pause... but you didn't research. Now if you're not going to bother to do any research first, then why should we bother to take your arguments seriously?
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