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Author Topic: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism  (Read 6633 times)

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Offline Benzel

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Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2017, 10:55:50 AM »
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    • Mr. Johson's post in another forum:

    Quote
    Meg said: ↑

    Quote
    Did Bp. Faure resign from the USML because of the Sedes, or not? If he resigned because of them, then that's an indication of a serious problem.
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]

    Unlike the sede agitators overrunning this forum, Bishop Faure read, and strongly approved, my article.

    The message is clear: Whatever the likes of GLBT and Shamus think, they are at odds with the non-sede resistance.
    [/font][/size]



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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #16 on: March 23, 2017, 11:41:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 23, 2017, 10:26:49 AM
    It was more of a rhetorical question; my take is that even if I'm incorrect that the organization was formed by +Williamson, the anti-sedevacantist (note: not the non-sedevacantist) flavors and sentiments that one can find throughout sedeplenia are not as representative as one might think.  To Benzel's flatearth's point, +ABL had good relationships with sedevacantists.  The problems with "the nine" went far beyond sedevacantism, which was a minor point in the letters of 1983.  +ABL only butted heads with sedevacantists when they butted heads with him first, and the only thing left of the vehemently sedevacantist crowd is what's found here and there (Cincinatti, Brooksville) and it's no secret that these clerics, though by my own estimation doing more good than ill, have a very long history of butting heads with most.  In other words, it's more of a personality conflict than a doctrinal one, except inasmuch as a certain cleric (on either side of the aisle) takes a dogmatic position on a point of controversy.  But even then, usually when pressed, such positions fade and you'll find that what seemed "dogmatic" was really just a very strong opinion.
    Confused two users in this post and returned too late to edit.
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #17 on: March 23, 2017, 11:59:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Benzel on March 23, 2017, 10:50:48 AM
    From an absolutely reliable source: Mr. Johnson tells the truth when he says that Bp. Faure resigned from the USML over the matter of sedevacantsim on march 7.

    If Mithrandylan and Flatearththey are right, Bp. Faure is wrong. If Bp. Faure is right, Mithrandylan and Flatearththey are wrong.
    Right about what? 

    It's a matter of fact that the Archbishop was not a committed anti-sedevacantist.  The only people who still think he was are those who have been hoodwinked by the post-ABL SSPX literature, which took a committed contra (if not anti, at times) sedevacantist position after... drumroll... Bishop Fellay took over (against the constitution of the SSPX, if you'll recall, given that ABL never wanted a bishop to be the superior general).  This organized effort, emblemized (at its best) by Fr. Boulet's underwhelming "Dossier" and (at its worst) by the nominal endorsement of the indult position via the screeds of Siscoe and Salza, is entirely the product of the post-ABL SSPX.

    For my part, the intriguing elements of Bishop Faure's resignation has very little to do with whether or not he's right about sedevacantism.  I'm more intrigued by the politics of the USML, and its relationship to Bishop Williamson.  I would like to understand how it came to be populated with sedevacantists.  So a majority of the members were opposed to allowing sedevacantists to join-- how did they end up joining, then?  And what exactly has occurred that has led +Faure to resign?  Simply reducing the resignation to not wanting to be around sedevacantists, or not wanting to work with them, or whatever else, is an unsatisfactory answer.  The Archbishop didn't feel that way.  If +Faure does, then that's his problem.  But I think that there's more to the story.  And that's what I want to know.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #18 on: March 23, 2017, 12:14:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 23, 2017, 11:59:10 AM
    Right about what?  

    It's a matter of fact that the Archbishop was not a committed anti-sedevacantist.  


    Here's an article on sedevacantism on the website of the Dominicans of Avrille, which shows that the Archbishop was very much against the "non una cuм" position of the sedevacantists. It seems that this issue with the sedes and Bishop Faure has to do with the "non una cuм" stance of the sedes.

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/archbishop-lefebvre-sedevacantists/
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #19 on: March 23, 2017, 12:59:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on March 23, 2017, 12:14:45 PM

    Here's an article on sedevacantism on the website of the Dominicans of Avrille, which shows that the Archbishop was very much against the "non una cuм" position of the sedevacantists. It seems that this issue with the sedes and Bishop Faure has to do with the "non una cuм" stance of the sedes.

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/archbishop-lefebvre-sedevacantists/


    I don't know how one could say that it seems that way at all, though.  Where's the proof?  Where's the evidence?

    And look at what the Archbishop says in what you quoted:


    Quote
    You say una cuм in the Canon of the Mass! Then we cannot pray with you; then you’re not Catholic; you’re not this; you’re not that; you’re not.. Ridiculous! ridiculous! because they claim that when we say una cuм summo Pontifice, the Pope, isn’t it, with the Pope, so therefore you embrace everything the Pope says. It’s ridiculous! It’s ridiculous! In fact, this is not the meaning of the prayer.

    He's right.  And of course, more to the point, the position of Archbishop Lefebvre on the una cuм is the position that most sedevacantists hold, anyways.  It's only Cekada et al. who hold the staunchly "anti-una cuм" position (i.e., one cannot morally attend a so-called "una cuм mass.").  Very notable sedevacantists (John Lane, J.S. Daly) have published material showing that the anti-una cuм position of Cekada et al. is simply wrong.  There are plenty of sedevacantists who would attend the mass of a so-called "una cuм" priest.  And plenty do.  And as to traditionalist clergy, neither the CMRI, SSPV, nor IMBC tell the faithful not to go to una cuм masses.  Fr. Pfeiffer warns the faithful against attending SSPX masses more than any of those groups do combined. 


    And applied to this issue even further, we know as a matter of fact already that the "anti-una cuм" position (as described and decried by Archbishop Lefebvre) is not the position of Fr. Pinaud.  He wouldn't have ever joined USML in the first place if it was.  In fact, no sedevacantist who is a "dogmatic sedevacantist" would join the USML for the very reason that the Archbishop points out.

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    Offline reconquest

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #20 on: March 23, 2017, 01:02:01 PM »
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    • Chaos reigns.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #21 on: March 23, 2017, 01:14:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 23, 2017, 12:59:34 PM

    I don't know how one could say that it seems that way at all, though.  Where's the proof?  Where's the evidence?

    And look at what the Archbishop says in what you quoted:


    He's right.  And of course, more to the point, the position of Archbishop Lefebvre on the una cuм is the position that most sedevacantists hold, anyways.  It's only Cekada et al. who hold the staunchly "anti-una cuм" position (i.e., one cannot morally attend a so-called "una cuм mass.").  Very notable sedevacantists (John Lane, J.S. Daly) have published material showing that the anti-una cuм position of Cekada et al. is simply wrong.  There are plenty of sedevacantists who would attend the mass of a so-called "una cuм" priest.  And plenty do.  And as to traditionalist clergy, neither the CMRI, SSPV, nor IMBC tell the faithful not to go to una cuм masses.  Fr. Pfeiffer warns the faithful against attending SSPX masses more than any of those groups do combined.  


    And applied to this issue even further, we know as a matter of fact already that the "anti-una cuм" position (as described and decried by Archbishop Lefebvre) is not the position of Fr. Pinaud.  He wouldn't have ever joined USML in the first place if it was.  In fact, no sedevacantist who is a "dogmatic sedevacantist" would join the USML for the very reason that the Archbishop points out.


    So, Fr. Pinaud always prays for the Pope when he celebrates Mass?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #22 on: March 23, 2017, 01:15:39 PM »
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    • Here's the original Non Possumus report on the formation of the USML.  http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.fr/2014/07/surge-la-union-sacerdotal-marcel.html

    And some initial CathInfo coverage identifying the different priests (to of whom are now bishops!) in the picture: https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/'union-sacerdotale-marcel-lefebvre'/

    I don't read French.  And I don't recall the USML receiving much attention on CI beyond its initial formation.  As I understand it, the USML is probably the most "incorporated" SSPX Resistance (also known as SSPX-SO, SSPX-MC, and so on).  What exactly was required to be a member, I have no idea, nor do I have any idea how many of these men (besides Faure and Trincado) have left or been expelled.  But at initial formation, the USML included Frs. Pfeiffer and Hewko, as well as Fr. Chazal-- all of whom, to varying degrees, are quite contra sedevacantism; in Fr. P's case, there is veritable anti-sedevacantism.  Bishop Williamson, of course, and then Frs. Faure and Aquinas are also present.  And of course the Dominicans of Avrille, who themselves have published contra-sedevacantist material.

    Point is simply that this is an organization that has some really heavy hitters among the non, anti, and contra sedevacantist crowd.  So again: how did the USML come to a point where it was "dominated" (<-- my word) by sedevacantists?  By all accounts this group should have been set to continue calling heretics popes for the next hundred years! :D
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #23 on: March 23, 2017, 01:21:33 PM »
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    • Meg,

    The point is simply that we're discussing two radically different approaches to the issue:

    1) sedevacantist priest doesn't think N is pope, so obviously he doesn't include the name of N in the canon where one would customarily name the pope.
    2) Sedevacantist priest who believes 1), but who additionally tells the faithful that its a sin to offer and attend a mass where the non-pope is commemorated, and who refuses to be associated with clerics who commemorate the non-pope at mass.


    The Archbishop, along with most sedevacantists, are only disturbed by 2).  And 2) does not describe Fr. Pinaud-- the very fact that Fr. Pinaud is a member of an organization which is not a sedevacantist organization proves the point.  As to other sedevacantists at USML, I have no idea if they belong to category 1) or 2).  But I suspect that they do not belong to the second category, since if they did, they would not belong to the USML in the first place.

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #24 on: March 23, 2017, 01:46:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on March 23, 2017, 01:21:33 PM
    Meg,

    The point is simply that we're discussing two radically different approaches to the issue:

    1) sedevacantist priest doesn't think N is pope, so obviously he doesn't include the name of N in the canon where one would customarily name the pope.
    2) Sedevacantist priest who believes 1), but who additionally tells the faithful that its a sin to offer and attend a mass where the non-pope is commemorated, and who refuses to be associated with clerics who commemorate the non-pope at mass.


    The Archbishop, along with most sedevacantists, are only disturbed by 2).  And 2) does not describe Fr. Pinaud-- the very fact that Fr. Pinaud is a member of an organization which is not a sedevacantist organization proves the point.  As to other sedevacantists at USML, I have no idea if they belong to category 1) or 2).  But I suspect that they do not belong to the second category, since if they did, they would not belong to the USML in the first place.

    So you're saying that Fr. Pinaud does always pray for the Pope when he celebrates Mass?
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    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #25 on: March 23, 2017, 02:00:59 PM »
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    • Of course he doesn't, he doesn't believe the man is pope.  We already knew this, it doesn't answer any questions: how did the USML come to have an allegedly dominant sedevacantist population in the first place, and why did +Faure resign?  To say "because sedevacantists" isn't an answer.  Bishop Williamson is still presumably a member, is he not?  As is Bishop Aquinas?  Who's in charge of the USML?  Why does a bishop feel as though his best option is to resign?  Why do not the other bishops resign?
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #26 on: March 23, 2017, 02:11:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: reconquest on March 23, 2017, 01:02:01 PM
    Chaos reigns.

    Yes, +W once explained that newChurch hamstrung-us over: "The pope, the pope... the pope".

    With newChurch hijacked, we cannot judge or resolve the status of the current papacy.
    In her last interview in 1957, Sr. Lucia even told us to forget about help from Rome.

    It's imperative for the Catholic Resistance to make peace among the factions and fight the true enemies of tradition.
    Right now, that's the destroyer Francis and any neo-trad derivative of the SSPX.
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #27 on: March 23, 2017, 08:04:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Incredulous on March 23, 2017, 02:11:23 PM
    Yes, +W once explained that newChurch hamstrung-us over: "The pope, the pope... the pope".

    With newChurch hijacked, we cannot judge or resolve the status of the current papacy.
    In her last interview in 1957, Sr. Lucia even told us to forget about help from Rome.

    It's imperative for the Catholic Resistance to make peace among the factions and fight the true enemies of tradition.
    Right now, that's the destroyer Francis and any neo-trad derivative of the SSPX.
    This is what I keep trying to tell people too...
    Thank you for putting it in better words than I would have been able to though!   :)
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    Offline DirigeNos

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #28 on: March 23, 2017, 10:54:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Benzel on March 23, 2017, 10:50:48 AM
    From an absolutely reliable source: Mr. Johnson tells the truth when he says that Bp. Faure resigned from the USML over the matter of sedevacantsim on march 7.

    If Mithrandylan and Flatearththey are right, Bp. Faure is wrong. If Bp. Faure is right, Mithrandylan and Flatearththey are wrong.
    But what is Sean Johnson's source? I see conflicting reports. This is no light matter, and gossip should not be spread unless it's verified. There's been no update posted at the website of the USML.  https://www.francefidele.org/communiqués-et-autres-informations/ 

    But here, at the "Canada Fidele" site, at paragraph 7, we find, via google translate:
    https://canadafidele.com/
    “7- With no intention of preventing anyone from reflecting on the ins and outs of the crisis of the Church and having an opinion on it, the priests of the USML ask the faithful to respect The positions of each and not to seek to impose their personal views on the other faithful. They renew their decision not to settle the question of the papacy in spite of the unprecedented crisis we are experiencing, but to await the judgment of the Church.”

    This is in line with the foundation of the USML and Archbishop Lefebvre himself who allowed both NUC/UC. At the present time, with things so fragile, the resistance must not allow this argument to tear it apart. The right choice will become clear in near future. You can't tear planks off a ship that has just left the dock.

    A resignation of Bp.Faure from his own union doesn't follow the facts.

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    Offline reconquest

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    Re: Bishop Faure resigns from USML over Sedevacantism
    « Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 10:02:05 AM »
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    • A few clarifications are in order:

    1) Bishop Williamson was never a member of the USML (neither were Frs. Pfeiffer and Hewko). The USML is almost exclusively a French phenomenon with only two or three priests in the Americas.

    2) Fr. Pinaud does not categorically affirm that Francis is not the pope. His position amounts to recognizing an objective doubt regarding the legitimacy of Francis; it could be said that he errs on the side of illegitimacy as far as the issue of who to name in the canon is concerned (given Bergoglio's blatant heterodoxy). Frs. Rioult and Roy basically take the same approach.

    3) The "USML declaration" posted above only concerns the particulars of their ministry in Quebec and may or may not be representative of the views of USML priests as a whole.

    4) Fr. Roy (Pierre Roy, not Patrick Roy) joined the USML during their meeting last February, which as far as I know was attended by all member priests. If a majority of members really did boycott the meeting, this is the first time I've heard of it.

    5) If Bishop Faure really is planning on excluding prospective non-una cuм priests from his seminary, this is a sharp reversal of his previous, explicitly stated position.

    All in all, I am perplexed and suspect that there is more to this story than what Sean Johnson has been telling us.
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