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Author Topic: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'  (Read 5249 times)

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Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2020, 02:28:15 AM »
It is by no means salvageable because even a key player in the Council (Ratzinger), with academic degrees, has not been able to salvage it to the satisfaction of the clerical world, not to mention the lay world, and probably not even to himself.  There is far too much heterodoxy, ambiguity, and contradiction within it to consider "salvaging" the fraction of a percent that is consistent with permanent Catholic doctrine. That's why it should be scrapped, not scrubbed.  

Ironically, however, despite so much abstract vagueness of language in the docuмents, today it is largely relied on by priests as a "teaching docuмent" (also something it was never intended to be), and especially a docuмent for those assumed to be less educated.  

A docuмent from which you have to infer everything and contort meaning out of it is of no use to the general Catholic public, most especially those not practiced in intellectual contortions.

It's good for nothing, to be thrown into the rubbish as a dangerous academic exercise with enough spiritual ambiguity to drive a mack truck through it.  It cannot be fixed or "saved," but souls who stay away from it can still be saved.  

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2020, 08:11:03 AM »
A truly excellent article from His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider. It's been wonderful to watch courageous Prelates like +Athanasius and Archbishop +Vigano step up to make the necessary critiques of the Council to bring it in line with Catholic Tradition.

You must not have actually read what +Vigano wrote.  He's not talking about bringing V2 in line with Catholic Tradition.  He's saying that it should be completely thrown out and that there should be a return to Tradition.  Yes, it's great news that we have TWO, count them TWO, Conciliar Prelates who have now admitted that there are errors in Vatican II (something you yourself refused to admit).


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2020, 08:14:53 AM »
Let’s all notice that +Schneider didn’t address the infiltration of Modernism, nor the Freemasons in new-rome, nor the false/parallel church, nor the simple name-calling of Bergoglio.  Either +Schneider is too scared to challenge the powers that be, or he’s one of them.  Can’t be trusted.

Yes, absolutely right.  +Vigano talks about the bigger picture, that V2 must be understood within the context of an attempt to set up a counter-Church, that the Church has been infiltrated by Masons and Modernists.  Schneider has gone one step beyond the "hermeneutic of continuity" ... but his response is just that some of V2 had to be corrected, as if the problem with the Council lies with a small handful of heterodox statements.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2020, 08:17:58 AM »
Viganò addressed Schneider by his name. Schneider probably is in doubt about the origin of the Viganò letter. Why else wouldn't he address Viganò by his name, too? Viganò basically called him a modernist and he repeats his modernism as if he hadn't even read what Viganò wrote.

Either that or he doesn't want to call any more attention to the Vigano June 9th letter than he has to.  Hard to say why he didn't mention him.  Could also just be because he intended to write the article in broader terms and did not want it necessarily to be viewed as a point-by-point rebuttal of +Vigano.  It really wasn't.  It was really just a re-statement of his original position to which +Vigano was responding.  So, for example, +Vigano disagreed with his example of the traditio instrumentorum as precedent for reforming a Council.  Here +Schneider merely re-states that without refuting +Vigano's objection to it.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Bishop Athanasius Schneider: 'Vatican II is Salvageable'
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2020, 08:55:10 AM »
A truly excellent article from His Excellency Bishop Athanasius Schneider. It's been wonderful to watch courageous Prelates like +Athanasius and Archbishop +Vigano step up to make the necessary critiques of the Council to bring it in line with Catholic Tradition. I agree with His Excellency's suggestion and I also believe Mother Church will do something along the lines of what he says in the future.
I know many think this conclusion follows, but what many will actually draw from it is "the Roman Church defected". We've already seen friends on this forum, like Jerm, for e.g. do that. And that's what Bishop Athanasius is trying to avoid - people losing faith in the Roman Church. Take an example. When the Anglican Lambeth conference said contraception was ok, all of us concluded the Anglican communion defected. If some people had said "the archbishop presiding wasn't a real archbishop" or whatever, that wouldn't have mattered. If a Council of a Church promulgated heresy, then that Church defected. And that's what is impossible for the Roman Church and why, imo, Bishop Athanasius does not grant it, and says we must continue to regard even the Ordinary, Non-Infallible Magisterium of the Roman Church with respect, as indeed even the Theologians say we must. There is also the issue that all the Bishops of the Church, as another consequence of Indefectibility, cannot err in identifying their Head. So indefectibility would be shot on that score as well if in fact they did so err. Pope Bl. Pius IX appealed to similar principles in refuting the idea of Vatican I containing heresy.

Anyway, that aside, Bishop Athanasius makes many valuable contributions to the debate. The Council is non-infallible. A future infallible statement of greater authority could correct some of the ambiguities or errors that have come from it. The greater always has precedence over the latter, and what is infallible over what is not. Trent and Vatican I, for e.g., or Nicea and the Creed etc, are all infallible dogmatic statements. Vatican II is non-infallible, although it is still Magisterial; it cannot have heresy, but an infallible statement in the future from the Church can override the non-definitive portions of it, according to the examples given by +Athanasius.

Xavier,

Is a teaching which is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and the Magisterium heretical? Archbishop Vigano says the teaching of religious liberty by the Second Vatican Council in DH is that, i.e. contrary to Scripture and the Church's Magisterium. 

Yet you say this is something it "cannot have." 

A reasonable man whom you respect and laud, Archbishop Vigano, says it has what you say it "cannot have." 

Is he a heretic who has the Church defecting? Does he too deny the indefectibility of the Church?