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Author Topic: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney  (Read 6773 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2019, 01:25:22 AM »
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  • Like for instance, Sola Scriptura is heresy, but there's no logical inconsistency between believing in sola scriptura, and believing in God.  

    There's no logical inconsistency between believing in evolution and the Big Bang, and believing in God.  Whether those former two beliefs are also heresies is what I'm trying to figure out.  I don't see how they could be heretical.  

    Which is a separate question from whether or not its true.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #61 on: May 02, 2019, 02:56:18 AM »
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  • Like for instance, Sola Scriptura is heresy, but there's no logical inconsistency between believing in sola scriptura, and believing in God.  

    There's no logical inconsistency between believing in evolution and the Big Bang, and believing in God.  Whether those former two beliefs are also heresies is what I'm trying to figure out.  I don't see how they could be heretical.  

    Which is a separate question from whether or not its true.
    I suspect the answer is there is none, necessarily anyway. The Church hasn't dogmatically defined much in specific about Creation. Although if there is an irreconciliable inconsistency between orthodoxy ans these theories, I'd suggest it probably lies in the problem of death. Death is supposed to have come into the world with Original Sin. People try to explain it in different ways, metaphorically or otherwise, but it may be irreconciliable with Church teaching, idk I've not read enough. Look into it if you're interested. 


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #62 on: May 02, 2019, 04:14:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: ByzCat
    What I'm trying to pry at with my questions, is whether theistic evolution is actually contrary to doctrinal orthodoxy, and if so, why, since Humani Generis seems to allow it to be debated within certain parameters.
    Hi ByzCat. You may like this article, why Human Evolution can never become part of the Deposit of Faith : http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/cbutel/humanevo.html

    An excerpt: The Magisterium Teachings of Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X

    Pius IX. The year after the publication of Darwin’s evolution thesis, the Provincial Council of Cologne issued the following canon, which was approved by Pope Pius IX:“Our first parents were immediately created by God (Gen.2.7). Therefore we declare as quite contrary to Holy Scripture and the Faith the opinion of those who dare to assert that man, in respect of the body, is derived by spontaneous transformation from an imperfect nature, which improved continually until it reached the present human state.” [10]

    Pius IX also approved the following teaching of the first Vatican Council :“This sole true God by His goodness and omnipotent power, not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows upon creatures with most free volition, immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature, out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely the angelic and the mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body.” [11] ... This part of the Vatican 1 teaching therefore cannot be reconciled with any theory of biological evolution of mundane creatures, which asserts that such life was not created immediately from the beginning of time but arose some millions or billions of years after that beginning and then only as amoeba (a unicelled organism), which then took millions of years to evolve into the kinds of living creatures specified in Genesis 1. Nor can it be said that God used an evolutionary system to create mundane creatures out of nothing."

    On the whole, even Humani Generis by Pope Ven. Pius XII is very skeptical of evolution: "Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things, and audaciously support the monistic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution. Communists gladly subscribe to this opinion so that, when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, they may the more efficaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism. 6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences. 7. There is also a certain historicism, which attributing value only to the events of man's life, overthrows the foundation of all truth and absolute law, both on the level of philosophical speculations and especially to Christian dogmas ... 9. Now Catholic theologians and philosophers, whose grave duty it is to defend natural and supernatural truth and instill it in the hearts of men, cannot afford to ignore or neglect these more or less erroneous opinions." At this time, no explicit ex cathedra decision forbidding evolution to be taught has yet been made; but it's very likely one will be made by a Pope or Council in future. And one could argue Pope Bl. Pius IX and the First Vatican Council, especially in light of that 1860 Provincial Council's decision which the Pope approved, had implicitly rejected evolution in these words, "9. Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth." (Vatican I Council, Session 3 : 24 April 1870, Dogmatic constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chapter 4, On Faith and Reason.)
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Online Nadir

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #63 on: May 02, 2019, 05:10:41 AM »
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  • What I mean is this.
    At a strict, logical level, this is true.  There is no inconsistency between believing in a Creator, and believing that said Creator used evolution and the Big Bang to create the world.

    That's a separate question than whether God did in fact do this, and whether the belief that God did this is a belief that an orthodox Catholic can hold.  Most of the answers to me have addressed that first question, but I've really been asking about the second one.

    But EVEN IF it was a heresy to believe in evolution and the Big Bang, that would just make it a heretical belief, it wouldn't mean that it was inconsistent with theism.
    Rearranging the wording of your second paragraph to help me make more sense of it:
    .
    “Whether God did in fact do this (use evolution and the Big Bang to create the world) is a separate question from
    Whether an orthodox Catholic can hold the belief that God did use evolution and the Big Bang to create the world.” (I hope I got that right!)
    .   
    Now if you believe that said Creator is none other than the Holy Trinity know to us through Revelation, and explained to us through Tradition of the Church, the Holy Fathers and the Scriptures, and there is no one of any import in the whole setup to give any evidence to the contrary, (that God did what Genesis said He did) how is it possible to believe a cock-and-bull story of our God using evolution or loud noises to create the world, when Scripture, the Church Fathers and Tradition say not one word about evolution and "big bangs".
    .
    Who are we Catholics to believe (if we are truly orthodox)? If we give such importance to the word of fallible men in opposition to Truth Himself, we would certainly be opposed to the constant Church teaching about creation in Holy Scripture, the Tradition and the Holy Fathers (which absolutely excludes evolution), even if a prohibition on the belief in evolution is not officially formulated.   
    .
    You need to study more, as this question is crucial to your faith. Do get hold of Gerry Keene's books (previously recommended) especially the "Special Creation Rediscovered". It's cheap as chips and well worth having in your reference library. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #64 on: May 02, 2019, 10:14:16 AM »
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  • Like for instance, Sola Scriptura is heresy, but there's no logical inconsistency between believing in sola scriptura, and believing in God.  

    There's no logical inconsistency between believing in evolution and the Big Bang, and believing in God.  Whether those former two beliefs are also heresies is what I'm trying to figure out.  I don't see how they could be heretical.  

    Which is a separate question from whether or not its true.
    You should read this book to see if there is "logical inconsistency between believing in evolution and the Big Bang, and believing in God"

    http://kolbecenter.org/store-2/#!/The-Metaphysics-of-Evolution/p/15921009/category=3268836
    In his encyclical Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII stressed the importance of preserving the traditional Catholic approach to philosophy. In his work The Metaphysics of Evolution, Fr. Chad Ripperger demonstrates that the theory of evolution is incompatible with the metaphysics of the Catholic tradition.

    Also look up and watch 
    Metaphysical Principle in Relation to Creation & Evolution (Part 1)  Fr Ripperger
    Metaphysical Principle in Relation to Creation & Evolution (Part 2)  Fr Ripperger


    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #65 on: May 02, 2019, 12:17:07 PM »
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  • Some may try to assert the position that because the Church allows Catholics to discuss or even argue two different points of views on an issue that therefore the Church is thereby -- at least tentatively --validating the supposed worthiness of both sides.  The speciousness of this claim can be seen by one simple example.  The Church allows Catholics to discuss or even argue (for either side) whether or not God exists, as for example in a classroom debate in a Catholic school.  The purpose in doing this could be a very noble one in showing the Catholic students how to best counter the argument for atheism.  At the end of the day, however, it never grants a Catholic any license to actually believe that God does not exist.  Error has no rights!

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #66 on: May 02, 2019, 01:20:35 PM »
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  • God did not create the sun and stars until AFTER He fashioned the earth ... and plants.  That is simply not consistent with Big Bang.

    Offline klasG4e

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #67 on: May 02, 2019, 02:01:07 PM »
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  • God did not create the sun and stars until AFTER He fashioned the earth ... and plants.  That is simply not consistent with Big Bang.
    Amen!

    Also, the SSPX did not start promoting and selling Fr. Robinson's modernist book until after the organization started to assume a lot of liberal makeover.  As hard as it may be to believe (although seeing is believing) that the SSPX is acutally promoting and selling Fr. Robinson's book now, it would be fairly impossible to imagine it being promoted and sold by the SSPX not that many years ago.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #68 on: May 02, 2019, 04:21:28 PM »
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  • God did not create the sun and stars until AFTER He fashioned the earth ... and plants.  That is simply not consistent with Big Bang.
    An overly literalistic reading of the sun being created after the light does not make sense. God called the light day and the darkness night, before he created the Earth and before he created the Sun. What exactly would this day look like then? Half the sky being light and half the sky(or heavens rather, as the sky hadn't even been created yet) dark, with it rotating 360 degrees every 24 hours? Then it says the stars God just created separated the days from the nights, the previous separation seeming to have been undone. Referring to the Moon as a "light" would also imply it was luminescent if taken purely literally. 

    Online Nadir

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #69 on: May 02, 2019, 08:14:36 PM »
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  • An overly literalistic reading of the sun being created after the light does not make sense. God called the light day and the darkness night, before he created the Earth and before he created the Sun. What exactly would this day look like then? Half the sky being light and half the sky(or heavens rather, as the sky hadn't even been created yet) dark, with it rotating 360 degrees every 24 hours? Then it says the stars God just created separated the days from the nights, the previous separation seeming to have been undone. Referring to the Moon as a "light" would also imply it was luminescent if taken purely literally.

    Not at all. Jesus tells us in John 8: I am the light. So light is uncreated. Light has been always. All of creation reflects light. Sun moon and stars are not light, but reflect light. Day is the presence of light and night is its absence so to speak to allow creation rest.

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #70 on: May 02, 2019, 11:30:55 PM »
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  • Some may try to assert the position that because the Church allows Catholics to discuss or even argue two different points of views on an issue that therefore the Church is thereby -- at least tentatively --validating the supposed worthiness of both sides.  The speciousness of this claim can be seen by one simple example.  The Church allows Catholics to discuss or even argue (for either side) whether or not God exists, as for example in a classroom debate in a Catholic school.  The purpose in doing this could be a very noble one in showing the Catholic students how to best counter the argument for atheism.  At the end of the day, however, it never grants a Catholic any license to actually believe that God does not exist.  Error has no rights!
    Your interpretation of humani generis is obviously false here for two reasons.  One: Pius XII explicitly rules out debate on the point that human souls were directly created by God.  The only thing you're allowed to debate (according to Pius XII) is the evolution of the human body.  Furthermore, polygenism is also not allowed to be debated.

    I'm not going so far as to say that Pius XII is saying that theistic evolution is a worthy opinion, he's clearly being cautious about it, but he clearly doesn't see it as equivalent to atheism where you can debate it as an academic exercise but you're a heretic if you believe it.  If that was the case, he wouldn't have explicitly contrasted with polygenism, and implicitly contrasted with evolution of the human soul.

    The only possible methods by which I can see saying that belief in theistic evolution is heretical are twofold:

    1: Pius XII was straight up wrong.  He wrongly allowed this to be debated, when in actuality he should've dropped the hammer on it.  What the implications of that would be, I'll leave for someone more competent than me.

    2: Pius XII was not wrong to allow this subject to be debated, but at some point the issue was/will be definitively settled by the Church, against theistic evolution.  

    Possibility #2 definitely hasn't happened yet, but it could happen in the future, and as Pius XII said, if that happened, to refuse to submit to it would be heresy.


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #71 on: May 02, 2019, 11:32:12 PM »
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  • Hi ByzCat. You may like this article, why Human Evolution can never become part of the Deposit of Faith : http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/creation/cbutel/humanevo.html

    An excerpt: The Magisterium Teachings of Pius IX, Leo XIII and Pius X

    Pius IX. The year after the publication of Darwin’s evolution thesis, the Provincial Council of Cologne issued the following canon, which was approved by Pope Pius IX:“Our first parents were immediately created by God (Gen.2.7). Therefore we declare as quite contrary to Holy Scripture and the Faith the opinion of those who dare to assert that man, in respect of the body, is derived by spontaneous transformation from an imperfect nature, which improved continually until it reached the present human state.” [10]

    Pius IX also approved the following teaching of the first Vatican Council :“This sole true God by His goodness and omnipotent power, not to increase His own beatitude, and not to add to, but to manifest His perfection by the blessings which He bestows upon creatures with most free volition, immediately from the beginning of time fashioned each creature, out of nothing, spiritual and corporeal, namely the angelic and the mundane; and then the human creation, common as it were, composed of both spirit and body.” [11] ... This part of the Vatican 1 teaching therefore cannot be reconciled with any theory of biological evolution of mundane creatures, which asserts that such life was not created immediately from the beginning of time but arose some millions or billions of years after that beginning and then only as amoeba (a unicelled organism), which then took millions of years to evolve into the kinds of living creatures specified in Genesis 1. Nor can it be said that God used an evolutionary system to create mundane creatures out of nothing."

    On the whole, even Humani Generis by Pope Ven. Pius XII is very skeptical of evolution: "Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved even in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all things, and audaciously support the monistic and pantheistic opinion that the world is in continual evolution. Communists gladly subscribe to this opinion so that, when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, they may the more efficaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism. 6. Such fictitious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable, have paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which, rivaling idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, has assumed the name of existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence of individual things and neglects all consideration of their immutable essences. 7. There is also a certain historicism, which attributing value only to the events of man's life, overthrows the foundation of all truth and absolute law, both on the level of philosophical speculations and especially to Christian dogmas ... 9. Now Catholic theologians and philosophers, whose grave duty it is to defend natural and supernatural truth and instill it in the hearts of men, cannot afford to ignore or neglect these more or less erroneous opinions." At this time, no explicit ex cathedra decision forbidding evolution to be taught has yet been made; but it's very likely one will be made by a Pope or Council in future. And one could argue Pope Bl. Pius IX and the First Vatican Council, especially in light of that 1860 Provincial Council's decision which the Pope approved, had implicitly rejected evolution in these words, "9. Hence all faithful Christians are forbidden to defend as the legitimate conclusions of science those opinions which are known to be contrary to the doctrine of faith, particularly if they have been condemned by the Church; and furthermore they are absolutely bound to hold them to be errors which wear the deceptive appearance of truth." (Vatican I Council, Session 3 : 24 April 1870, Dogmatic constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chapter 4, On Faith and Reason.)
    I'll need to look into that bit from Vatican I and think about it.  At the moment I'm not sure if the notion of theistic evolution is definitively at odds there.  But perhaps it is.

    That being said, to be clear.   You said Pius XII is "very skeptical" of theistic evolution.  So am I.  I don't believe in it.  If I had to take a position, I'd say I don't believe in it.  I'm trying to figure out whether its heretical or not.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #72 on: May 03, 2019, 08:57:46 AM »
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  • If by "evolution of the human body" one means the evolution of the human body from an ape, I cannot see how this is not heretical.  It clearly contradicts Sacred Scripture.  It must be some amazing stretch to say that when Scripture states God created Adam's body from the "clay of the earth", that this "clay of the earth" was actually an ape.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #73 on: May 03, 2019, 09:21:49 AM »
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  • If by "evolution of the human body" one means the evolution of the human body from an ape, I cannot see how this is not heretical.  It clearly contradicts Sacred Scripture.  It must be some amazing stretch to say that when Scripture states God created Adam's body from the "clay of the earth", that this "clay of the earth" was actually an ape.
    Not that I agree, but I imagine they'd argue the clay of the Earth became the creatures that became Adam. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: BIG BANG Defended by Fr. Laisney
    « Reply #74 on: May 03, 2019, 10:50:20 AM »
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  • Not that I agree, but I imagine they'd argue the clay of the Earth became the creatures that became Adam.

    Right.  That's why I said it's a huge stretch.  With that logic, I fashioned a hamburger from the clay of the earth yesterday.  Ridiculous.  Then Scripture specifically says that God took Even from Adam's rib.  Why mention that in detail, since she too by that logic was made from clay?   There's probably an overwhelming amount of Patristic consensus in favor of a literal interpretation here.