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Author Topic: Being too picky about your Priest  (Read 4152 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Being too picky about your Priest
« on: May 23, 2019, 11:27:01 PM »
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  • I just received a letter from an individual who spoke about various Resistance priests "not having the Faith". He didn't mention any concrete heresies. The only example he gave?
    "Such and such a priest wouldn't allow his sermons to be recorded. I knew that was bad news." and now he's searching (in vain) for a priest according to his own particular opinions and tastes.

    Guess what? You were born to be a home-aloner. You are being too picky.

    Here is what I wrote back to him:

    Quote
    The biggest problem with what you said is the bit about various Resistance priests "not having the Faith".

    If and when God takes away the Eternal Sacrifice (i.e., no more Masses anywhere), He will A) keep those dark days short "for the sake of the Elect" and B) He will sustain us by His grace.

    However, if WE take away the Eternal Sacrifice "before the time" because we're willful, picky, etc. then we're on our own. If we lose the Faith, fall into sin, etc. it will be 100% our fault.

    There is nothing against the Faith with making the prudential decision to not record one's sermons. That is not a matter of Faith. That is merely a question of prudence. One can agree or disagree with a priest's prudential decisions, but they are not sufficient reason to "red light" or avoid a priest, much less declare said priest doesn't have the Faith.

    If we place burdens upon ourselves, due to stupidity, willful ignorance, apathy, malice, letting our emotions get carried away, etc. we can't expect God to work miracles and send special graces to fix everything up and clean up the mess WE made.
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    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #1 on: May 24, 2019, 03:04:20 AM »
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  • It is all that (the effects and causes you list in your last sentence), but it is also more than that.

    1.  Negativity has a profound and insidious influence in our spiritual lives, disposing us eventually if not sooner to reject graces God is trying to make available to us, not to mention often not recognizing opportunities to pray for graces.

    2.  Dwelling on what is bad about the Church or the hierarchy or particular clergy -- despite so much of it in fact being bad -- is unhealthy for our spirituality because it disposes us more to even mild forms of demonic influence than if we minimize our fixation on the deficiencies of others and situations.  This is called custody of the mind -- averting our attention from the imperfections in liturgy, disappointments in those or in whatever high standards we have for traditionalist priests.

    I think this latter sentence is a special problem for trads because we count so much on our priests to right the wrongs in the See and in parishes.  We may not even realize we're putting unjust and unrealistic expectations on our priests, which then can lead us predictably to a discouragement that is out of proportion to reality.  

    #2 can lead to obsession -- as well as sometimes being a sign of it.  And obsession is always disproportional by nature.  Obsession also blocks the action of grace because it leaves us tied to extreme focus and mental activity.  We must practice custody of the mind so that we can be receptive to grace whenever and wherever God wishes to extend it.  Being overly suspicious of a priest for an arbitrary reason is an example of lack of custody of the mind.


    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #2 on: May 24, 2019, 03:40:10 AM »
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  • Don't think this person thought the refusal to allow a recording was a heresy, but I think they are onto something.
    They are onto a certain cultish behavior of some priests. The same cultish and secretive behavior that lead to the SSPX apostasy.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #3 on: May 24, 2019, 08:42:18 AM »
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  • Don't think this person thought the refusal to allow a recording was a heresy, but I think they are onto something.
    They are onto a certain cultish behavior of some priests. The same cultish and secretive behavior that lead to the SSPX apostasy.

    That doesn't even make sense!

    If there was even 1% of cult thinking in the priest in question (I'm part Irish, let's stop beating around the bush and just say his name: Bishop Zendejas) why wouldn't he WANT and even INSIST that we record and distribute his sermons? If this was about ANY kind of cult, including the cult of personality, recording and making sermons available would be the prime directive.

    And how can you compare Bp. Z's policy on recording sermons with the SSPX? They couldn't be more exact opposites! The SSPX new direction, under Bishop Fellay, is about compromising on principles in order to get greater numbers, to get more people in the pews so they can "save the Church". If Bp. Z had even 1% of that thinking, wouldn't he be recording EVERY SINGLE SERMON so they could be distributed to others, and generate as much fame as possible?

    The SSPX is all about fame, popularity, numbers, maximum influence, etc. now. To maximize a priest's influence, you want to reach those who can't make it to your Masses. A priest only has 24 hours in a day to talk to people, travel, say Mass, and basically influence people or build his fame. The best way to expand this is to have a book/sermon/website apostolate where people all over the country can reach or listen to "you" 24/7.

    I would say Bp. Z's insistence that no one record his sermons is the exact OPPOSITE of this.

    You can disagree with Bp. Z about his sermon policy -- THAT much is open for debate. But as for the two arguments you gave above? They DO NOT HOLD WATER from a reason or logic perspective, and that isn't open for debate. Those 2 arguments don't work at all, and that is cut-and-dried, case-closed by reason of simple logic and reason.

    Now the question of Bp. Z being "right" about not recording/distributing his sermons -- THAT is open for debate.

    A person can disagree with Bp. Z about something like the recording of sermons -- but that doesn't mean you can throw just anything at him, any negative charge at all, whether it makes sense or not!  Why don't you come up with a VALID argument that actually holds water? For example, you could say he's over cautious or paranoid. I would still disagree with you, but at least that argument would make sense.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #4 on: May 24, 2019, 08:52:14 AM »
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  • As for secretive, that is a load of hogwash.

    Bp. Z is not secretive. He says public Masses in at least a half-dozen locations.

    There is no law that says a president must publicize his tax returns, and there is no evidence of any financial crime by Donald Trump. Yet the whole Democratic "team" or party believes Trump is a criminal (on faith) and is completely upset that he won't release his tax returns. They're taking serious action against him right, much worse than the mere words I have seen online criticizing Bp. Zendejas.

    Likewise, there is no moral principle, much less Church law or tradition, that a priest should (must?) record and distribute his sermons. In fact, if anything, there is a tradition AGAINST it. The fruit (good) of a sermon comes from God's grace, not the words themselves. And a priest often tailors his sermon for the particular audience.

    The priest has to pray and sacrifice to get fruit from his activity (including sermons). Read "The Soul of the Apostolate". A priest doesn't get an automatic 10-fold return on his prayers and sacrifices just because he posts his sermons online. Understand now?

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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #5 on: May 24, 2019, 09:12:23 AM »
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  • It's probably a good idea that +Z doesn't allow his sermons to be recorded. In the past I've seen his sermons picked apart and criticized mercilessly here on the forum by the anti-Resistance forum members who flourish here. 

    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline confederate catholic

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #6 on: May 24, 2019, 09:27:26 AM »
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  • This seems to be a perfect example of someone not truly understanding that not everything is doctrine and that we can have opinions different from each other
    +Z was absolutely right, most normal people who record or photograph at Mass tend to do so discreetly and for our personal use. If we want to plaster it all over the internet, then we would ask, I suspect that +Z didn't either trust this individual (good spotting of the unhinged) or has a preference for not being recorded and he has every right to that.
    You should have said .....get over yourself.
    قامت مريم، ترتيل وفاء جحا و سلام جحا

    Offline Francisco

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #7 on: May 24, 2019, 09:49:31 AM »
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  • The SSPX still says that it is getting pleas for priests from all over the world but just does not have the priestly resources to meet them. Is this true? What I have from at least one quarter is that the SSPX now wants its chapels to be self sufficient financially.
    I personally dont believe that many are asking for SSPX priests. Thanks to Fellay's assistance in " freeing the Mass" (!) there are Insult Masses all over the place performed by laymen in disguise


    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #8 on: May 24, 2019, 10:07:29 AM »
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  • Bishops and priests should not be afraid to have themselves recorded.
    The world and faithful NEED transparency.
    That said, maybe Bp. Zendejas doesn't want it because of what happened to Bp. W regarding the h0Ɩ0cαųst? Just thinking out loud...

    When did Bp. Z start asking not to be recorded? Did he used to allow recordings?

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #9 on: May 24, 2019, 10:16:53 AM »
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  • As for secretive, that is a load of hogwash.

    Bp. Z is not secretive. He says public Masses in at least a half-dozen locations.

    There is no law that says a president must publicize his tax returns, and there is no evidence of any financial crime by Donald Trump. Yet the whole Democratic "team" or party believes Trump is a criminal (on faith) and is completely upset that he won't release his tax returns. They're taking serious action against him right, much worse than the mere words I have seen online criticizing Bp. Zendejas.

    Likewise, there is no moral principle, much less Church law or tradition, that a priest should record and distribute his sermons. In fact, if anything, there is a tradition AGAINST it. The fruit (good) of a sermon comes from God's grace, not the words themselves. And a priest often tailors his sermon for the particular audience.

    The priest has to pray and sacrifice to get fruit from his activity (including sermons). Read "The Soul of the Apostolate". A priest doesn't get an automatic 10-fold return on his prayers and sacrifices just because he posts his sermons online. Understand now?
    This is so true. The Bishop told us if anyone wants to come hear him, let them come. The Mass is open to all, so clearly there is no secret. It is not his fault people cannot travel to him or he cannot be everyone at once for everyone. I do not remember reading on the internet years ago about anyone from Los Gatos complaining they cannot hear the sermon from St. Marys, or someone from St. Marys complain they cannot hear the sermon from Arcadia. Sure, it would be a nice to have more sermons, especially from a priest you particularly like, but to say "If I cannot hear this particular priest's sermon, then he must be a cult leader" is a foolish thing to say.

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #10 on: May 24, 2019, 10:54:25 AM »
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  •  but to say "If I cannot hear this particular priest's sermon, then he must be a cult leader" is a foolish thing to say.
    Eh, not really.

    There are plenty of cult leaders out there.
    That's why people say it.


    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #11 on: May 24, 2019, 11:22:59 AM »
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  • It's probably a good idea that +Z doesn't allow his sermons to be recorded. In the past I've seen his sermons picked apart and criticized mercilessly here on the forum by the anti-Resistance forum members who flourish here.
    True. I remember the resistance was highly critical in the early years when it was leaked that the SSPX priests had been cautioned by Menz not to allow their sermons to be recorded for that very reason. It was decried on the fora as evidence of their decline and untrustworthiness. Just sayin'...

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #12 on: May 24, 2019, 11:30:46 AM »
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  • True. I remember the resistance was highly critical in the early years when it was leaked that the SSPX priests had been cautioned by Menz not to allow their sermons to be recorded for that very reason. It was decried on the fora as evidence of their decline and untrustworthiness. Just sayin'...

    I'm not sure that I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that the resistance criticized the SSPX because the SSPX were not recording their own sermons, and the Resistance (forum here?)saw this as evidence of the decline and untrustworthiness of the SSPX?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #13 on: May 24, 2019, 11:36:10 AM »
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  • Woaahh! slightly touchy there Matthew!

    There were good reasons I did not mention names.

    One of these is because the behavior mentioned is not limited to one cleric alone.

    Cultish behavior= centralising, attempting to control where not necessary.

    There are grades of it. One can be a little bit cultish, or very cultish etc. etc.

    So you can allow people to come to Mass= good.

    But then attempt to control every narrative on the internet about you, even down to not allowing pictures on the internet except in limited circuмstances = bad.



    Offline 1st Mansion Tenant

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    Re: Being too picky about your Priest
    « Reply #14 on: May 24, 2019, 11:47:00 AM »
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  • I'm not sure that I understand what you mean here. Are you saying that the resistance criticized the SSPX because the SSPX were not recording their own sermons, and the Resistance (forum here?)saw this as evidence of the decline and untrustworthiness of the SSPX?
    Yes. Though I don't want to have to go digging for evidence right now, I'm pretty sure many resistance faithful who were on-board in the first few years remember the roasting we gave them over this subject on assorted fora. Unless, of course, the resistance is now developing it's own convenient "memory holes" in imitation of the accordistas we disdained.
    *reposted since it seems my original reply disappeared