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Author Topic: Basic Traditionalist Group Stances  (Read 1863 times)

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Offline Croixalist

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Basic Traditionalist Group Stances
« on: December 19, 2016, 04:30:00 PM »
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  • Okay, so there's a few competing interpretations of the Crisis at hand in terms of recognition of various Popes, interpretation of VII, access to the Sacraments, EENS, allies and enemies. Here's my attempt at broadly categorizing the main groups. I've tried to describe various positions as fairly as I can, but feel free to add your own perspectives on what each group actually does or does not believe overall. I'm not out to argue for and against any of these positions, just to help organize the information out there. Also feel free to take a shot at the various conclavist groups. That's one subject I haven't gotten very far into at all.

    General SV:
    Main Group: CMRI
    False Popes preside over false council, promotes false Mass, the only true remnant of the true Church are those priests, bishops and laity who continue pre-VII traditions as best as they can. Pro-BoD/BoB. No currently recognized Pope. Laity are strictly barred from participating in any outside group. All Sacraments are provided for in theory, but through sheer lack of resources make it impossible for most people to access them on a regular basis.

    General R&R:
    Main Group: SSPX
    True Popes preside over a non-binding council containing multiple errors, and promulgate a valid though seriously flawed Mass which leads people away from the faith, even going so far as to be invalid in certain situations and therefore ought to be avoided. Similarly, all Church authorities who suppress the TLM in their parishes and diocese can be safely ignored. True Catholic priests and laity of good will can still be found in the N.O. Church, but especially in the SSPX. Patrons are strongly dissuaded from competing TLM providers, however. Recognition of the "irregular" status often means being unable to morally bind patrons from leaving their chapels. Every Sacrament is provided for, though on a much smaller scale than the mainstream church. Conditional Confirmations and Ordinations are regularly performed but not compulsory. Open to independent NO priests who can provide the TLM in certain cases. Officially pro-BoD/BoB, although many R&R laity are strongly anti-BoD/BoB. Vatican Pope is recognized. Very long commutes to Sunday Mass are the norm.

    General Recognize and Dodge:
    Main Group: FSSP
    Same as R&R in regards to viewing the NO Mass as harmful and dangerous but with one major difference being that VII is not filled with error so much as ambiguity that naturally tends toward heretical interpretations. Another difference being that the choice of TLM provider must be in good standing with Rome. Laity are strictly forbidden from attending SSPX, Sede organizations, and Masses done by independent priests. Officially pro-BoD/BoB. Vatican Pope is recognized. There are no serious concerns about validity of NO sacraments and therefore not as pressed to avoid them.

    General Resistance:
    Main Group: SSPXMC
    Still has a core of R&R with laity being strongly compelled to avoid all SSPX communities functioning under the leadership of Bishop Fellay as well as the NO Mass. All Sacraments are provided for in theory, but through sheer lack of resources make it impossible for most people to access them on a regular basis. Conditional Ordinations are compulsory for any outside priests. Open to various independent former SSPX priests who can provide the TLM. Officially pro-BoD/BoB, although many Resistance laity are strongly anti-BoD/BoB. Vatican Pope is recognized. Extreme limited access to the Sacraments is similar to SVs.
    Fortuna finem habet.


    Offline TKGS

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    « Reply #1 on: December 19, 2016, 05:09:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Croixalist
    General SV:
    Main Group: CMRI
    False Popes preside over false council, promotes false Mass, the only true remnant of the true Church are those priests, bishops and laity who continue pre-VII traditions as best as they can. Pro-BoD/BoB. No currently recognized Pope. Laity are strictly barred from participating in any outside group. All Sacraments are provided for in theory, but through sheer lack of resources make it impossible for most people to access them on a regular basis.


    I would like to point out that the bolded statement here is absolutely not the position of the CMRI.  In fact, the CMRI tells the faithful that they can participate in the traditional sacraments of any validly ordained priest.  Bishop Pivarunas as specifically given the example of the faithful in Australia who who have virtually no access to the sacraments if the faithful did not seek the sacraments from the SSPX priests who are there.  

    I know of at least one loose group of independent priests (they are not in any formal association) who holds the same position.

    The only group I have heard that actually holds this position is the SSPV though there may be others.  But if the CMRI is identified as the "Main Group", this statement should certainly not be listed here.  If there was another category listed, such as, schismatic SV, then this statement would be entirely appropriate.


    The last sentence appropriately applies to all of the traditional groups except that most people aren't Catholic and looking for the true sacraments.


    Offline MarylandTrad

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    « Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 08:30:33 PM »
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  • One major omission in the original post is that there are many R&R who believe that the new rite of "Mass" is illicit according to Session 7 Canon 13 of Trent and St. Pius V's Quo Primum. The illicitness of the new rite makes the question of validity only relevant for purposes of reparation. Those who hold as I do, that the new rite is illicit, say that it cannot be attended even if the Sacrament is valid.

    Furthermore, as Canon 13 is a dogma, we hold that if anyone says that any pastor of the churches, whomsoever, can change the received and approved rites accustomed to be used in the administration of the sacraments into other new ones - let him be anathema.
    "The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a man who thinks other people can get along without It. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who thinks he needs It but someone else does not. The Blessed Eucharist means nothing to a communicant who offers others any charity ahead of this Charity of the Bread of Life." -Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life

    Offline Croixalist

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    « Reply #3 on: December 20, 2016, 10:10:06 AM »
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  • Thank you for the corrections, folks. It helps out a lot.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Prayerful

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    « Reply #4 on: December 20, 2016, 01:06:04 PM »
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  • Here in Ireland the only priestly society under Conciliar authority with a full schedule of Masses and some effort at coverage, is the ICKSP, who celebrate the Mass with great dignity and give glory to God with their vestments. The FSSP have one monthly Mass at quite a distance in Cork. That is sad, as a few bishops associated with them were or are Irish. I think there's one or two Resistance priests who follow a circuit, while the main SSPX have a chapel half a hours drive away. I know of no sedevacanist here except the deeply unsatisfactory and eccentric Bishop Cox (with Thuc-Palmarian orders) who 'ordained' the singer Sinead O'Connor.

    At least Dublin through the Dublin Latin Mass Chaplaincy means a moderate degree of access to the Mass (15 minutes to their church).  Perhaps in the future, they might become a priestly society (however like with any priestly society under Conciliar authority, there is the uncertainly with Conciliar orders unless a priest be old).

    I don't think the SSPV redlight other Traditional priests and their Masses, unless there could some specific concern, but I might be wrong on that.



    Offline tdrev123

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    « Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 04:55:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Prayerful
    Here in Ireland the only priestly society under Conciliar authority with a full schedule of Masses and some effort at coverage, is the ICKSP, who celebrate the Mass with great dignity and give glory to God with their vestments. The FSSP have one monthly Mass at quite a distance in Cork. That is sad, as a few bishops associated with them were or are Irish. I think there's one or two Resistance priests who follow a circuit, while the main SSPX have a chapel half a hours drive away. I know of no sedevacanist here except the deeply unsatisfactory and eccentric Bishop Cox (with Thuc-Palmarian orders) who 'ordained' the singer Sinead O'Connor.

    At least Dublin through the Dublin Latin Mass Chaplaincy means a moderate degree of access to the Mass (15 minutes to their church).  Perhaps in the future, they might become a priestly society (however like with any priestly society under Conciliar authority, there is the uncertainly with Conciliar orders unless a priest be old).

    I don't think the SSPV redlight other Traditional priests and their Masses, unless there could some specific concern, but I might be wrong on that.



    They red-light everybody except for the SSPX.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    « Reply #6 on: December 20, 2016, 05:10:06 PM »
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  • There may be only 4 groups, but there are about 4,000 different opinions on V2/novus ordo.  Knowing which group a person belongs to, doesn't guarantee you know their opinion.

    Offline Prayerful

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    « Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 05:29:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: tdrev123
    Quote from: Prayerful
    Here in Ireland the only priestly society under Conciliar authority with a full schedule of Masses and some effort at coverage, is the ICKSP, who celebrate the Mass with great dignity and give glory to God with their vestments. The FSSP have one monthly Mass at quite a distance in Cork. That is sad, as a few bishops associated with them were or are Irish. I think there's one or two Resistance priests who follow a circuit, while the main SSPX have a chapel half a hours drive away. I know of no sedevacanist here except the deeply unsatisfactory and eccentric Bishop Cox (with Thuc-Palmarian orders) who 'ordained' the singer Sinead O'Connor.

    At least Dublin through the Dublin Latin Mass Chaplaincy means a moderate degree of access to the Mass (15 minutes to their church).  Perhaps in the future, they might become a priestly society (however like with any priestly society under Conciliar authority, there is the uncertainly with Conciliar orders unless a priest be old).

    I don't think the SSPV redlight other Traditional priests and their Masses, unless there could some specific concern, but I might be wrong on that.



    They red-light everybody except for the SSPX.  


    Thanks for the info. Fr Jenkins came from them, and there would have to be some tortuous reasoning to reject undoubtedly Traditional orders and Mass, but that would seem unfair to other Traditional priests who would be able to provide the paperwork. Anyhow an SSPX chapel is nearest me so it's a theoretical grumble for me.