Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)  (Read 15068 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline RomanCatholic1953

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10512
  • Reputation: +3267/-207
  • Gender: Male
  • I will not respond to any posts from Poche.
AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2015, 10:05:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • A 1934 Mass at St. Patrick's Catholic Church in Chicago, Illinois


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10512
    • Reputation: +3267/-207
    • Gender: Male
    • I will not respond to any posts from Poche.
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #16 on: December 18, 2015, 10:10:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Mother Cabrini Chapel in 1955.


    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 10512
    • Reputation: +3267/-207
    • Gender: Male
    • I will not respond to any posts from Poche.
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #17 on: December 18, 2015, 10:16:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Woodlands Academy of the Sacred Heart in 1959.

    Modernism is creeping in.

    No Statues, No Stations of the Cross.

    Offline AJNC

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1002
    • Reputation: +567/-43
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #18 on: December 19, 2015, 12:57:24 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    This is the second new SSPX facility this year to "coincidentally" have an altar that isn't against the wall. Does anyone have pictures of the new church in Michigan? Hopefully they've dodged the trend.

    If I were an organization dedicated to promoting the TLM, I'd want people to know exactly what sort of Mass was said in a church the minute they walked through the door. The convertible altar look just leaves one to wonder.


    I think it was in the Angelus some years ago that erecting the altar away from the wall was in fact correct because it better facilitated incensing during High Mass!!!!
    Yet, altar missals have an incensing chart which does not provide for incensing at the back of the altar.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #19 on: December 19, 2015, 01:21:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: AJNC
    Quote from: MaterDominici
    This is the second new SSPX facility this year to "coincidentally" have an altar that isn't against the wall. Does anyone have pictures of the new church in Michigan? Hopefully they've dodged the trend.

    If I were an organization dedicated to promoting the TLM, I'd want people to know exactly what sort of Mass was said in a church the minute they walked through the door. The convertible altar look just leaves one to wonder.

    I think it was in the Angelus some years ago that erecting the altar away from the wall was in fact correct because it better facilitated incensing during High Mass!!!!
    Yet, altar missals have an incensing chart which does not provide for incensing at the back of the altar.


    I probably shouldn't say this because someone in Menzingen might read it and then put it to use.  Anyway, the Armenian Orthodox (and maybe Catholic too but I don't recall) altar has space behind it, where the priest carries a baby during the Baptism ceremony, and it goes with a Scripture verse that says I will comapss thine altar, or similar words.  They deliberately build their altar with a 4' wide walking area behind the altar, so that a person can walk entirely around the altar.

    Byzantine and Coptic sanctuaries have a place behind the altar where a celebrant stands during the consecration.

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1424
    • Reputation: +1360/-142
    • Gender: Female
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #20 on: December 19, 2015, 03:18:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote
    And I notice the altar is nice and "detached" from the wall behind it -- to facilitate saying the Novus Ordo Missae someday soon.

    After I posted above, looking again at the picture, I realized there is no space between the altar and the 3 steps going down.  So, presuming this altar is not movable, it is installed in such a way that in order to say a traditional Mass a platform would need to be erected in front of the altar.  And as you say, the Newmass (facing the people) would be the NORMAL use of this sanctuary.

    If, on the other hand, the altar is movable, then it is able to be used for either the TLM or the Newmass.  

    In any case, I was only commenting on the altar itself, since the thread title says "AWFUL NEW ALTAR" and nobody had posted a single word about the artwork behind the altar.  

    In the TLM, the altar cloths have a skirt that goes to the floor, and so the altar is covered during Mass.  There would be no reason to have such an ornate design in the front and sides of a traditional altar, but for the Newmass and even "transitional" forms, the skirt is raised to expose the altar underneath, and then various constructions of the lower part of the altar becomes a consideration.  

    All in all, it appears this is built for something other than a Traditional Latin Mass.

    .


    The 3 steps on the front was my first observation. No room for the priest. I would guess that is the intended position because is in line with the reform of the reform usual set up with the side steps such as in the new Menzingen altar posted some time ago. The wall painting is also in line with the R of the R.
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Maria Auxiliadora

    • Supporter
    • ***
    • Posts: 1424
    • Reputation: +1360/-142
    • Gender: Female
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #21 on: December 19, 2015, 03:26:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Where do you suppose the Tabernacle would be? And the Altar stone? Is there one? Statues?
    The love of God be your motivation, the will of God your guiding principle, the glory of God your goal.
    (St. Clement Mary Hofbauer)

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #22 on: December 19, 2015, 04:17:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Marie Auxiliadora
    Where do you suppose the Tabernacle would be? And the Altar stone? Is there one? Statues?

    The top of the altar is missing in all these images, so it has not been introduced so far.  When we see pictures of the top then perhaps these questions can be answered.  The altar stone normally fits into a depression or socket in the front, center of the altar, on top.  After Vat.II, some new altars started to relegate the altar stone to a place underneath the top, and then upon inspection of some of these new altars, I have found that the stone is nowhere to be found.  

    I asked a priest at St. ---- in Chatsworth (part of Los Angeles) where the stone is, and he told me that it has been embedded into the floor in the foyer, as part of a covering for the TIME CAPSULE that was ceremoniously buried in the floor, and this capsule will be opened 50 years in the future.  So the precious altar stone at this Novus Ordo parish is being stepped on by oblivious visitors as they walk through the main entrance from the parking lot.  I couldn't help but recall the answer to the question, what do you do with salt that has lost its savor?  Throw it out on the ground where it will be trodden underfoot.

    As for statues, I don't see any designated niches for them.  Since the cross is not a crucifix (missing the INRI) and it's painted on the wall, maybe they're going to eliminate other sculptures like statues, too.  The windows apparently are translated into virtually skylights (very close to the ceiling) so there isn't really any place for stained glass, so far.  It's not too likely that they're going to rip holes in the walls at a later time.

    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #23 on: December 19, 2015, 04:39:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Neil Obstat

    I asked a priest at St. John Eudes Parish church in Chatsworth (part of Los Angeles) where the stone is, and he told me that it has been embedded into the floor in the foyer, as part of a covering for the TIME CAPSULE that was ceremoniously buried in the floor, and this capsule will be opened 50 years in the future.  


    I had left out the name of the church.  

    Also, I asked the priest what items are in the time capsule, and he told me that we'll find out in 50 years.  Nobody made any list or has left a description of the contents.  Later, I wondered if the altar stone was broken or in some way stuck with glue or mortar in this capsule, such that in opening it, the altar stone would be broken.  If an altar stone is cracked or seriously damaged, it cannot be used for Mass.  And traditionally, this stone is the first thing a priest needs before saying Mass in a new location, and without the stone the Mass is not properly provided for, with its necessities.

    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #24 on: December 19, 2015, 05:23:22 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matthew

    There is plenty to complain about this altar/crucifix/background art.

    The Crucifix is completely un-traditional at best, and evil at worst.

    Our Lord's face is facing forward, rather than leaning to one side. His LEFT FOOT is over the right, which is backwards. There is no "I.N.R.I." title at the top. And so forth.

    The arms are way too stretched and/or skinny. And the depiction of Our Lady (is that who it's supposed to be?) is unrecognizable and about as far from traditional as possible. And where is the crown of thorns? I can't see it in the picture. If there is a crown of thorns, it's been minimized to the point where it's unnoticeable.

    And the whole sphere thing is just modern art at its worst.

    And I'm going to say it: with the sunken belly and distended chest, it looks like breasts -- and combined with the very tight band of white rays, it looks like milk is squirting out into a waiting vessel. Who needs a breast pump!

    And what's with the disembodied (candy) heart? I'm pretty sure it's been explicitly forbidden by the Church to portray the (Sacred?) Heart totally disembodied from Our Lord like that.

    I'd say this Crucifix is sacrilegious. It is certainly not traditional. It's as bad as the "bent crucifix" of JP2.

    And the SSPX authorities who approved this project CERTAINLY approved of the image he painted. You don't commission an artist to work 42 days to paint "whatever he wants". A job like this costs a lot more than $200.

    It says it took him 42 days to paint this. I can't help but notice the number 42. That number has some significance in various secret societies. It's 21 times 2.

    So 42 days to make this 0 of a mural. 4-2-0. Indeed, the SSPX authorities must have been 4-2-0 (smoking pot) when they approved this trash masquerading as art.

    And I notice the altar is nice and "detached" from the wall behind it -- to facilitate saying the Novus Ordo Missae someday soon.


    This.
    Thanks for putting it into words much more charitably than I could have.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ekim

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 791
    • Reputation: +818/-103
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #25 on: December 19, 2015, 06:10:28 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not disagreeing with previous posts, but this appears to be a work in progress, paint pallet and scaffolding are still in place.  Hopefully the INRI will still be added, the "fairy" will become a Saint, the scaffolding will be removed, and the altar pushed back against the wall.  As far as the image of Our Lord, I've traveled extensively through Greece, Spain, Italy, and Portugal and have seen images of Our Lord, dating back to antiquity, far worse than this.  

    This may all still be resolved appropriately.  A man can hope can't he?  

    I'd like to see photos of the finishedproduct.


    Offline Recusant Sede

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 313
    • Reputation: +155/-120
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #26 on: December 19, 2015, 06:21:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They are either going to move the altar back against the wall or it will be used, as is, to face the people. At 3:04 in the video, it seems like the altar does not have a top yet. Also, the black pedestal to the left seems like a place where the NO church would put their tabernacle.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13823
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #27 on: December 19, 2015, 06:53:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: MaterDominici
    This is the second new SSPX facility this year to "coincidentally" have an altar that isn't against the wall. Does anyone have pictures of the new church in Michigan? Hopefully they've dodged the trend.

    If I were an organization dedicated to promoting the TLM, I'd want people to know exactly what sort of Mass was said in a church the minute they walked through the door. The convertible altar look just leaves one to wonder.


    I don't have a picture but they are using the same altar they had at the previous chapel and it is right against the east wall as it should be. It actually looks better now that there is more room since they replaced the small 18 inch tall crucifix above the tabernacle with a very large 6 foot tall beautiful crucifix.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Croixalist

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1480
    • Reputation: +1056/-276
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #28 on: December 19, 2015, 08:22:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It's obvious that the Novus-Pocus Crucifixion Scene is not meant to be obscured by a traditional sanctuary. Burn the whole place to the ground and start over! If the Fellay-cious one and the fowl Gallareta get upset they can put the fire out with nothing but their newfound "faith". After all the quibbling about what percentage VII got right or wrong, they go ahead and mess with precisely the thing that they have no excuse to tamper with... even if they play footsie with the Council. What a betrayal and a travesty.
    Fortuna finem habet.

    Offline Graham

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1768
    • Reputation: +1886/-16
    • Gender: Male
    AWFUL NEW ALTAR IN THE AWFUL NEW SSPX CHAPEL (MADRID)
    « Reply #29 on: December 19, 2015, 08:35:30 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The chapel has a dreadfully modern style. It indicates conscious modernism.

    What's with the "iron ball" coming out of the Blessed Mother's cloak, can anyone explain what that represents and why it was deemed so important to include?