Author Topic: Attend the SSPX? Read this. (Read 14072 times)

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2015, 05:12:02 PM »

And yet "all are welcome". There are ecuмenical services with the enemies of Christ in Catholic Churches and jurisdiction.

Catholics need not apply.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2015, 05:16:32 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: Matthew

But as I've said before, it's a matter of Catholic dogma and truth that the SSPX holds no jurisdiction (authority from above) over any Catholic. Only the Conciliar Church has this [jurisdiction] today.

Quote from: Bishop Tissier

...the Conciliar church, which is no church but a poison poisoning the Church...

I understood that he referenced the Conciliar church as a point of comparison and whether or not it is indeed the True Church doesn't have much bearing on the topic of the post.

I've never heard anyone argue that the N.O. being a false church automatically passes normal jurisdiction on to some Traditional group. They don't have normal jurisdiction but countless Trads act as if they do. That, I believe, was his point.

The point is that it is heresy to say that only the conciliar church has jurisdiction today.

Matthew · « **Reply #7 on:** August 18, 2015, 05:19:14 PM »

Quote from: Capt McQuigg

I think "jurisdiction" is a very vague concept.

If anyone can point me in the direction of any docuмents or pre-Vatican II manuals that would help me understand it better, I would greatly appreciate that.

Matthew's post is definitely a well-thought out post and intriguing. My own view of jurisdiction can be summed up by "Who sent you?"

The SSPX Bishops and priests were all validly ordained. Archbishop LeFebrvre did mention that he wasn't passing on jusidiction but what does that really mean?

As for SSPXers advising other SSPXers against leaving the SSPX, I see no real harm in that as long as it's not dogmatic.

Jurisdiction is NOT a nebulous concept like "positive energy" or fairy dust.

It is a real authority that comes from God, through his representative the Pope, for the ruling and operation of His Church.

Either you can demand obedience and submission, or you can't. In 1950, your local priest or Bishop could demand such obedience. Only he represented your area in the Church founded by Christ. There were other heretical sects, but none that could claim to be founded by Christ or have His authority. Your only alternative was to leave the Catholic Church.

In the 1960's, however, we could leave IN ORDER TO KEEP the Faith.

Archbishop Lefebvre couldn't give jurisdiction to his bishops, because then the Catholic Church would have TWO bishops of Chicago, for example. Which of them has the real power over the Faithful in the Windy City? A country can only have one king. A diocese can only be ruled by one bishop. If he pretended to give them jurisdiction, he would be cutting himself off completely from the Conciliar Church.

The whole Trad world revolves around "supplied jurisdiction" a.k.a. "supplied authority". Because of the emergency/crisis situation, the good of souls demands that priests get the jurisdiction they need to hear confessions, witness marriages, and say Mass without the permission of the local Conciliar Church authorities. In such times of crisis, the Church provides the necessary jurisdiction for the needs of her children. Epikeia ("what did the lawgiver really intend") and all that.

"The salvation of souls is the highest law" is the motto of Traditional Catholicism. It is our justification for being.

Matthew · « **Reply #8 on:** August 18, 2015, 05:27:17 PM »

Quote from: Centroamerica

The point is that it is heresy to say that only the conciliar church has jurisdiction today.

Only the conciliar church has ordinary jurisdiction today.

Traditional priests, bishops, chapels, etc. only have emergency SUPPLIED jurisdiction.

I'm not saying that we don't have a right to go to Trad chapels, or that Trad chapels don't have a right to operate/exist. Of course not. But the jurisdiction they have is
A) temporary
B) emergency, supplied
and
C) coming from BELOW, from the requests of the Faithful

Traditionally, the bishop or priest has his power FROM ABOVE which allows him to do things like break up fights between priests.

I don't think you fully understand what Jurisdiction means. It is similar to authority.

Who has authority in the Catholic Church today? Who are the bishops that have to be followed or obeyed under pain of sin?

Please do not continue to say things like this, which suggest misunderstanding and/or ignorance.

Matthew · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2015, 05:29:28 PM »

That is why, for example, Bishop Williamson can't come out swinging a 100 lb mace and "break up fights" between various Traditional priests.

The priests would rightly say, "By whose authority?" or "Who died and made you Pope?"

Bishop Williamson can't just muscle his way into various controversies and say, "Me Bishop. You priest. You listen!"

It's not that simple. If only it were!