Author Topic: Attend the SSPX? Read this. (Read 14077 times)

OHCA · « **Reply #15 on:** August 19, 2015, 08:44:04 AM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

How can these "gαy" parishes within have jurisdiction and not the SSPX?

Maybe conciliardom does not have jurisdiction--I think that's likely. But to claim that ordinary/delegated jurisdiction currently lies anywhere else is logically very close to conclavism. Not only does that argument implicitly depose the pope, but goes on to supplant his power to install bishops who have ordinary jurisdiction. The R&R position is quite tedious as it is. But you would also deny who you believe to be the Holy Father the basic trappings of the office of granting jurisdiction and saying who is in charge over the various locales (bishops with ordinary jurisdiction)? Talk about the mental somersaults necessary for those who would do this to still somehow firmly & indignantly assert that Frank is the true pope...

Matthew · « **Reply #16 on:** August 19, 2015, 08:48:26 AM »

VCR and Centro,

Jurisdiction is not "has a good claim on your support".

Jurisdiction does not mean "we (alone) deserve to exist"

Jurisdiction does not mean "you had better show up here (and nowhere else) under pain of sin"

Jurisdiction does not mean "God's full blessing and stamp of approval"

The Crisis in the Church requires that we side with the Truth over Authority. Authority only exists for the sake of the Faith/truth. When authority starts dismantling the Faith, it loses its right to be obeyed.

But the authority remains. It doesn't instantly get transferred to someone else (say, Bishop Fellay, Bishop Williamson, or Bishop Sanborn)

You may follow those bishops, as you keep the Faith in your various lifeboats -- that's perfectly legit for a Catholic, and is the foundation of the Traditional movement.

But if you decide that this bishop is bad for stealing properties from the SSPX (for example), you may leave and follow a different Trad bishop.

You don't have to follow the bishop that God placed over you, because God hasn't placed any Trad bishop over any of us in particular. They are all auxiliary bishops only. They have no Jurisdiction. Their permission from the Church to ordain, confirm, etc. comes from the Church in the form of SUPPLIED JURISDICTION which is available because of the emergency situation/Crisis in the Church.

If the Church weren't in Crisis, you couldn't have "independent" organizations with autonomous bishops like the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, etc. Normally, if you don't answer to Rome on a daily basis, you're in schism, period.

Matthew · « **Reply #17 on:** August 19, 2015, 09:01:11 AM »

When Our Blessed Lord walked the earth, He said that "The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men' s shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them." (Matthew 23:2)

He was speaking about the wicked Pharisees, who stubbornly and maliciously insisted that Our Lord was bad, even when he rose people from the dead.

But a better example is when Our Lord was silent before the Sanhedrin, but he spoke to certain individuals (Pilate, the Chief Priest) out of respect for their authority.

Moral of the story: being a bad guy doesn't instantly mean you LOSE ALL AUTHORITY -- it just means you no longer have a right to be obeyed or followed in every case. It means people have a higher cause, which allows them morally to NOT follow you.

If I got into a bad phase and stopped going to Mass, committing sins all the time, yelling, being generally grumpy because of my new disquieted soul, and being a total ____, would I lose all authority over my children? No, but there might be some commands given that they shouldn't obey -- since in this hypothetical case, I'm obviously not thinking "God first" anymore. Also, it might be smart for them to not hang around me any more than absolutely necessary. They would still need to keep a certain respect, but prudence might require they don't "stop in my office" for fun/social reasons like they were normally wont to do. Because in this hypothetical "Matthew-gone-evil" scenario, they might see something bad on my monitor, or learn new swear words from my mouth.

Matthew · « **Reply #18 on:** August 19, 2015, 09:06:18 AM »

Quote from: OHCA

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
How can these "gαy" parishes within have jurisdiction and not the SSPX?

Maybe conciliardom does not have jurisdiction--I think that's likely. But to claim that ordinary/delegated jurisdiction currently lies anywhere else is logically very close to conclavism. Not only does that argument implicitly depose the pope, but goes on to supplant his power to install bishops who have ordinary jurisdiction. The R&R position is quite tedious as it is. But you would also deny who you believe to be the Holy Father the basic trappings of the office of granting jurisdiction and saying who is in charge over the various locales (bishops with ordinary jurisdiction)? Talk about the mental somersaults necessary for those who would do this to still somehow firmly & indignantly assert that Frank is the true pope...

Indeed. To say that the Conciliar Church has lost jurisdiction is to say that the See is Vacant, period. And even worse, it also implies that the Church is vacant (granted, most sedevacantists insist that the Church is vacant as well)

That much, I thought, went without saying.

Interesting how many non-sedevacantists seem to believe this!

Sedevacantists might say that there is no Ordinary Jurisdiction anywhere (for the past 40+ years) because there hasn't been a Pope. But even Sedevacantists (except the conclavists who have tried to establish a new Church) wouldn't claim that any particular Trad group has ordinary Jurisdiction.

Matthew · « **Reply #19 on:** August 19, 2015, 10:38:01 AM »

Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey

How can these "gαy" parishes within have jurisdiction and not the SSPX?

Because that's how it is.

That's like saying, "How come the messed up pope in Rome gets to be the Vicar of Christ, with all the authority and prestige that entails, and gets to partake of all the promises Christ made about the Church and the Papacy, while someone faithful like Bishop Williamson gets nothing! It's not fair!"

Yes, it doesn't seem fair. But that's precisely how it is. We have to accept the reality.

But another thing you are completely missing -- jurisdiction isn't everything. Just because the Conciliar Church is still the Church doesn't mean we have to attend their parishes, or that people even SHOULD attend those parishes. No, we must avoid them because the Faith is more important than Authority/Ordinary Jurisdiction.

So our chapels still come out on top in the end, overall. But that doesn't mean they win the whole poker take (Ordinary Jurisdiction and all). It's not a poker game.

Just because all Catholics should attend Traditional Mass chapels doesn't mean the latter gets to inherit an authority that can only come from above. No matter how necessary Trad chapels/priests are, no matter how long the crisis goes on, and no matter how many Catholics avail themselves of Trads priests/sacraments/chapels, in the end we are still relying on SUPPLIED jurisdiction.