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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Cera on March 26, 2019, 04:41:31 PM

Title: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 26, 2019, 04:41:31 PM
Here's a link which explains in great detail why the name Our Lady of Good Success was chosen 30+ years ago in the first book written in English about the apparition https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/B999_M120_OLGS.html   (https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/B999_M120_OLGS.html)

Can someone post the article in the link here on this thread, I do not know how to do it.
Our Lady of Good Success or
 Our Lady of Buen Suceso?


(https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/Images/B_000_WhatPeopleAreSaying02_Cir_sm.jpg) (https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/B000_WhatPeopleAreCommenting.htm)
In Honor of ‘Maria Santissima del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion’

 Our Lady of Good Success aka Our Lady of Buen Suceso aka Mary of Buen Suceso aka Holy Mary of Good Success aka... and on and on...

 However, the official title that Our Lady asked for in Quito, Ecuador was:

 The title Maria Santissima del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion which was also extended via the "godmother" or "madrina" of the statue, the Marquesa de Solanda to: Maria Santissima del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion y Candelaria which in English translates to: Most Holy Mary of Good Success of the Purification and Candelmas.

 Wow, either one of those Spanish titles are a real mouthful, aren't they?!? Those titles are extremely difficult for me – an American – to read, much less pronounce! But there they are!

 I imagine many devotees of Our Lady of Good Success are now more confused than ever! What is the correct title to call this beautiful Lady in Quito that came to Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres in the 1500-1600's to warn us about our times? You could say that they ALL are correct in one way or the other, but for us, Americans, must we say the complete official Spanish title, or a combination of sorts, or what?


(https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/Images/B_999_M120_OL-1.jpg) (https://traditioninaction.org/tiabk003.htm)
Well, in order to answer this question, I thought I would share a little 20th century history of how the title Maria Santissima del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion came to be known as Our Lady of Good Success. And rest assured, Our Lady has well-accepted her title as Good Success for many, many years now! I will start with the most recent and how I discovered this historical data and go backwards... as I learned it.

 In 1998 or 1999, when I read for the first time about Our Lady of Good Success, I was first taken by her face – that image that is on the front of the book by Dr. Marian Horvat titled Prophecies for Our Times (https://traditioninaction.org/booksOLGS.htm#olgs). Reading the title of her name of Our Lady of Good Success, well, it sounded so good to my ear and expressed feelings of hope, inspiring me to know more about this Lady who I knew nothing about!

 My first thought was what a sweet, innocent, child-like, yet motherly, face it was!!! I had no idea what the story was behind that photo – that miraculous image of the countenance of Our Lady!

 Thus, upon reading the story – her prophecies and how they related to the era in which we lived, I was so excited that I wanted to spread this devotion! But, I thought I needed to know more... I scoured the internet looking for any other book that had been printed in English on the subject.

 There was nothing except for an obscure green book titled: A Spanish Mystic in Quito: Sor Mariana de Jesus Torres by Msgr. Luis E. Cadena y Almeida, written in 1987 in English. The publishing date was marked as 1990 by "The Foundation for A Christian Civilization." It is in this book that one can also read that back in 1987, Nuestra Senora del Buen Suceso was translated as Our Lady of Good Success.


(https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/Images/B_999_M120_Cad.jpg)Msgr. Luis Cadena y Almeida
This is fairly significant as this author, Msgr. Cadena y Almeida, was also the Postulator for the Cause of Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres until his death. He was a very educated priest holding a doctorate in Philosophy, History and Letters. He was the director of the Archiespiscopal Archive of the Curia of Quito. He founded at least six Educational Institutions in Quito. He had also received a number of awards for education etc. (btw he presented all of his awards to Our Lady of Good Success in a solemn ceremony on October 6, 1985).

 He bore all the credentials of a learned man – someone who should be put in charge to do the work that he did! In other words, this priest was no slouch! I had truly hoped to meet him, but, unfortunately, he died before I could get to Quito on my next visit!

 He, also, wrote several other books on the topic of Mother Mariana and Our Lady of Good Success, but this book was the only one to be translated into English. I think this particular book is an important piece of historical evidence as it proves and verifies that the Buen Suceso was translated, or at least allowed to be translated by the Postulator for the Cause, to Good Success.


(https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/Images/B_999_M120_Pred.png)Text in English approved by Msgr. Cadena y Almeida using the expression Our Lady of Good Success
Additionally, the Official Title of the Blessed Mother appearing to Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres was: Maria Santissima del Buen Suceso de la Purificacion and was translated there as Holy Mary of Good Success of the Purification.

 Throughout the book, he often refers to Our Mother as Our Lady of Good Success. I would say that is quite a change from the official title. One wonders why he did such a thing?

 Well, the best hypothesis that I could come up with is that as he pondered introducing this approved devotion to the English-speaking people – a devotion that was actually approved – give or take – 400 years ago i.e., in the Spanish Colonial period in Ecuador, he considered that there somehow needed to be an adjustment.

 One can imagine this title would need to measure up to other prayers and devotions to Our Lady. For the last 150 - 200 years or so, the Catholic Church had gained a number of approved apparitions from the Blessed Virgin Mary. And guess what? The greater majority of these Madonnas had been titled in their English translation as: Our Lady of ... For example: Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of La Salette, Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal, and on and on.


(https://traditioninaction.org/Questions/Images/B_999_M120_Book.jpg) The book by Msgr. Cadena y Almeida from where the texts above were taken
As well, Our Lady of Fatima stated she was Our Lady of the Rosary but we never call her: Our Lady of Fatima of the Rosary and Our Lady of Lourdes stated that she was The Immaculate Conception but we never call her: Our Lady of Lourdes of the Immaculate Conception! It would be too wordy and superfluous! Thus, it would make sense that this postulator, in trying to assimilate this 400 years devotion into 20th century American Catholic Culture, wanted to have the English translation of the name to coincide with the other Marian devotions so as to, in a way, "fit in" or "catch up" with the other approved devotions to Our Lady.

 And to me, an average Catholic raised in a solid Catholic Family, it really makes sense. Additionally, I have never seen any combined language in a title to the Blessed Mother such as this Our Lady of Buen Suceso before.

 For example: we don't say: Our Lady of El Rosario – we say: Our Lady of the Rosary etc. I know that many people on trying to read or pronounce this "Spanglish" title of Our Lady of Buen Suceso have had a lot of trouble and become confused!!

 One can see here that even in the "Last Will and Testament of Mother Mariana," the Postulator for the Cause of Mother Mariana, Msgr. Cadena y Almeida, has Mother Mariana call the Blessed Virgin Mary: Our Lady of Good Success.

 At the end of Msgr. Cadena's book on page 157, under "Acknowledgement," Msgr. Cadena wrote:

 "After having written this modest book in order to reveal the preferential love of God for the Ecuadorean nation ... a miracle happened ... a generous hand drew it from obscure anonymity and will present it to the immensely noble and benevolent people of the United States of America."

 Thus, it cannot be contested that Msgr. Cadena y Almeida made this translation particularly for those of us here in the USA!

 Additionally I would like to add that I don't imagine he ever expected us to have to say the official Spanish title nor would he imagine her title here in the USA to be anything but: Our Lady of Good Success.

 In fact, the following prayer was composed by Msgr. Cadena dedicated to Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres which is more proof that it was his wish that we would not only call this Virgin of Quito who graced the Monastery of the Immaculate Conception Our Lady of Good Success, but that we should pray to her under this beautiful title as well!

 
Solemn Pledge to Mariana de Jesus Torres
 by Msgr. Luis A. Cadena y Almeida

 Blessed be thee, Mariana Francisca de Jesus Torres! Thy warnings of justice have struck our very bones. We acknowledge that we are in kinship with thee for having sown in these Andean Mountain ranges the white and blue lilies of the Immaculate Conception; for having won for us the gift of the Christian Faith and love for Mary; and for having sprinkled in our lives the iridescent gold of hope engendered by the devotion to the Mother of Good Success, the certain anchor of salvation.

 By the example of thy life, resplendent with virtues; by the fulfillment of thy prophecies and the Divine message that thy hands placed in our consciences; by all the marvels of sanctity, love and graces worked by God to form thee, educate thee, and perfect thee; and by thy sacrificial and permanent self-surrender for our conversion and salvation; for these and all that we owe thee, we offer to thee our undying gratitude.

 And, as a pledge of this, we also offer:
(N.B.– This prayer was written by Msgr. Dr. Luis E. Cadena y Almeida – Postulator for the Cause of Beatification of the Servant of God Mother Mariana Francisca de Jesus Torres y Berriochoa, Quito, March 1, 1987. This prayer was found in his book, A Spanish Mystic in Quito. This book bears an Imprimatur)

 God bless Msgr. Cadena y Almeida for his good work to spread this devotion to the United States of America!!!

      Eternal rest grant unto him, O Lord...

      Kathy Heckenkamp
      The Apostolate of Our Lady of Good Success
      1288 Summit Ave Suite 107
      Oconomowoc, WI. 53066
      phone 262-567-0920
      website: www.ourladyofgoodsuccess.com


 
Posted March 6, 2019
 
______________________

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Last Tradhican on March 27, 2019, 05:30:36 AM
After reading all of this material, it is clear that the SSPX is correct on this and Atila is wrong.
I think you made a mistake in writing down your thoughts, you wrote them down backwards, no? 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on March 27, 2019, 10:14:19 AM
We shall fun teasing Jade with her new nick-name "the Agent", next time she comes to town.

Yeah... and straight-up, American cowboy style, please ask her the following:

1. What's she doing at the convent? (her business and purpose?)

2. Who is her SSPX and Quito Diocese contacts?

3. When does "la China" plan to leave?

:cowboy:

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: cosmas on March 27, 2019, 10:58:17 PM
Why is it anybodys business what jade does. Shes evidently spending her own time helping the nuns there in Quito. Praying,sacrificing and doing the things Catholics are supposed to be doing. NOT GOSSIPPING and CALUMINATING !
She, Jade is doing with her time, trying to spread devotion to Our Lady and Her Son. This is more than alot of her detractors are doing.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on March 27, 2019, 11:58:30 PM
All I could find out about this Catholic lady is this
:
We had an apostolate in Tanay twice, assisting the faithful in St. Philomena Chapel to sing in the choir. We also helped Ate Jade Liboro in the distribution of St. Anthony's Bread for the poor in the slum areas in Payatas. Then also, we helped in the general cleaning of the Church in preparation for the grand welcome of the new prior, Fr. Adam Purdy.

It is neither Catholic nor charitable to pile on with attacks on this lady based on the word of one less-than-honorable person, Atila the agent of the TFP.
Mr. Atila is not an "agent of the TFP". He hasn't been a member of the TFP since 1997.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 28, 2019, 01:07:23 PM
Cera,

Let me guess... did you score low in reading comprehension in high school ?
No need to attempt to be insulting. Did you read both docuмents? Just for the record I am a retired university professor.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 28, 2019, 01:38:09 PM
TIA Atila left TFP
We are well aware of the story told by TIA of their claimed separation from TFP. We have read the docuмents presented by Atila to support this claim.
https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/Internet_Files/F142_Defense_Eng.pdf

Problem One:
Why did Atila fight so hard to remain attached to TFP?
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
       "In its 23rd General Assembly, April 10 to 19, 1985, the Bishops approved in plenary session a notice regarding the TFP. It therefore has all the official character of an Assembly of the Bishops of Brazil in Conference, and not simply a press release. The notice reads as follows: "Its esoteric character, religious fanaticism, the cult given to the personality of its founder and head, the abusive use of the name of Most Holy Mary, according to circulated information, cannot in any way merit the approval of the Church. "We lament the difficulties flowing from a civil society which presents itself as a Catholic religious entity, without a tie to the legitimate pastors.
        "This being the case, the Bishops of Brazil exhort Catholics not to enroll in the TFP, and not to collaborate with it.
        "The above stated was signed by +Dom Raymundo Damasceno Asas, Secretary-General of the Conference on National Bishops of Brazil on April 23, 1997."
        Immaculate Heart Messenger, ed. Father Robert J. Fox. January - March 1998 edition p. 29.
  
       In 1984 the local T.F.P. branch was outlawed in Venezuela, accused by a special parliamentary commission of being a "cult ... which warps the minds of young people, turns its members into fanatics and brainwashes them".
        Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o sètta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece
        http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm

   Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
          
        TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
        Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.
        According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud.


Problem Two:
Why did TIA wait over 20 years to post the purported letter from TFP?  It was supposedly written in 1997, but not made available to the public until after 2017.

TIA’s story is:
“In January 2017, TIA hosted an Event (sic) celebrating the publishing in English of the 11-volume Collection Eli. Eli Lamma Sabacthani? by Atila Sinke Guimarães. . .”

At that event, those present raised questions regarding “the expulsion of Atila from the TFP” and “insisted that a translation of it to English should be available to the public.” 

In response to those questions, Marian Horvat began to translate the supposed docuмent from Portuguese to English.

Problem Three:
For a letter purportedly from a hostile presient of the TFP organization from which Atila is, supposedly being cut off, it is surprisingly full of praise for Atila:

This is from:
“The Letter of the President of the TFP to Atila Sinke Guimarães, November 20, 1997
. . .  Very dear Mr. Atila, because of your elevation of sights, your gifts of intelligence, your energy and, above all, the many graces that Our Lady has poured over you, you have a great role to carry out in the  Counter-Revolution  and  in  the  TFP. . . I take leave with inalterable esteem.”

Thats. Just. Odd.

:
                       


Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 28, 2019, 04:27:20 PM
The REAL reason the Pliinio- worshipping TIA (much like its sister organization the Plinio-  worshipping TFP) is attacking SSPX:

way back in 1983, the SSPX's Angelus magazine had the following concerns of Plinio and his organization:

Quote
Quote
*  Dr. Plinio will never die. When his mission on earth is fulfilled, he will walk into an earthly paradise and then ascend into heaven.

*  Dr. Plinio's mission is to defeat "the revolution," the Communistic and/or demonic forces which are corrupting the human race. He is the "pilgrim of justice" sent by God for this purpose.

*  Next to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dr. Plinio is most loved by God. Hence, St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.

*  Dr. Plinio has the power to read a man's soul in order to determine if he possesses "Tau," the vocation and quality to fight the revolution. He is even supposed to be able to make this determination from viewing a photograph. "Tau" can be found only in males.

* Members of the TFP are required to pledge their allegiance to Dr. Plinio. They make a consecration of slavery to the Blessed Mother and to Dr. Plinio. So highly regarded is Dr. Plinio that we were encouraged to kiss one of his hats that had come into our possession. And we kept a special room set aside for him where we had a special bed raised on a platform above the floor.

Source: http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773 (http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773)

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on March 29, 2019, 07:57:07 AM
More neo-SSPX intrigue in Ecuador.  Link (https://traditioninaction.org/bev/230bev03_25_2019.htm)


When Ecuadorian friends refer to her, they call her la China; when Brazilian friends speak of her, they say a Filipina; I will refer to her in this article as the Agent.

 I will analyze the four main goals that the Agent attained for SSPX.
  • A change of the name of the devotion in English;
  • A change of the juridical status of the Conceptionist Convent with the Archdiocese;
  • The expulsion of the disciples of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira who were in charge of several functions in the Convent;
  • The consequences of this expulsion for the Convent and for SSPX.
Should my analysis require it, I will post its continuation(s) in days to follow.


The article by Guimaraes lists four main goals of the supposed "agent," but the article does not address the last two (number 3 and 4 on the list), that I can see. Though maybe I missed it, since the article is so lengthy.

On # 3 above, Guimaraes is concerned that the agent is working for the goal of the expulsion of the disciples of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira who were in charge of several functions of the convent.

#4 describes the consequences of this expulsion for the convent and for the SSPX.

Question:
Why should Atila Sinke Guimaraes be concerned about the supposed expulsion of disciples of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 29, 2019, 01:02:04 PM
Question:
Why should Atila Sinke Guimaraes be concerned about the supposed expulsion of disciples of Prof. Plinio Correa de Oliveira?
Go to TIA for the answer to your question. Go to the search box and enter Plinio Correa de Oliveira. You will get 814 articles by or about how wonderful he is. Both TFP and TIA engage in Plinio-worship.
They only pretend to be separate organizations.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on March 29, 2019, 01:23:16 PM
Go to TIA for the answer to your question. Go to the search box and enter Plinio Correa de Oliveira. You will get 814 articles by or about how wonderful he is. Both TFP and TIA engage in Plinio-worship.
They only pretend to be separate organizations.

Cera,

You are an agent of misinformation.

Your citation on "Plineo worship" makes me think you're either hardcore neo-SSPX, or even Opus judei.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on March 29, 2019, 01:26:00 PM
No need to attempt to be insulting. Did you read both docuмents? Just for the record I am a retired university professor.
Cera,

If you are a retired scholar, your intelligent analysis of the docuмents was conspicuously lacking.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on March 29, 2019, 04:30:59 PM
The REAL reason the Pliinio- worshipping TIA (much like its sister organization the Plinio-  worshipping TFP) is attacking SSPX:

way back in 1983, the SSPX's Angelus magazine had the following concerns of Plinio and his organization:

Quote
Source: http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773 (http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773)

What exactly is "tau?" It's sounds a bit new-age. I see that it has something to do with being able to fight the revolution, but I've never  heard of anything like that in Church teaching.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 29, 2019, 06:04:16 PM

Previous link not working

(The following was published in The Angelus, July 1983).

Also available in PDF  HERE (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Jj21h2cYaxTub2JrYqyssEEmZ42f8l0r)

TFP: A DANGEROUS CULT

John T. Armour

I WAS A MEMBER of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) from July 1980 until January 1981. I affiliated with the group after meeting with a TFP sympathizer in my home state of California. As a member, I lived at "the TFP seat" in Mount Kisco, New York, where I received the training and indoctrination that all members are given. I consider myself very fortunate to have been convinced by some good friends to separate from this group.

Looking back, I can now see that the TFP is a dangerous personality cult whose purpose is the glorification of its Brazilian founder, Dr. Plinio Corea de Olivera. Many highly idealistic and religiously motivated young men have been captivated by its persuasive program. The appeals to moral, dogmatic and liturgical tradition which are so refreshing in this age of turmoil are, in my opinion, simply a means to lure individuals into the cult.

During the period of training which I received, I was taught:

* Dr. Plinio will never die. When his mission on earth is fulfilled, he will walk into an earthly paradise and then ascend into heaven.

* Dr. Plinio's mission is to defeat "the revolution," the Communistic and/or demonic forces which are corrupting the human race. He is the "pilgrim of justice" sent by God for this purpose.

* Next to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dr. Plinio is most loved by God. Hence, St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.

* Dr. Plinio has the power to read a man's soul in order to determine if he possesses "Tau," the vocation and quality to fight the revolution. He is even supposed to be able to make this determination from viewing a photograph. "Tau" can be found only in males.

* Members of the TFP are required to pledge their allegiance to Dr. Plinio. They make a consecration of slavery to the Blessed Mother and to Dr. Plinio. So highly regarded is Dr. Plinio that we were encouraged to kiss one of his hats that had come into our possession. And we kept a special room set aside for him where we had a special bed raised on a platform above the floor.

When I first arrived at TFP headquarters in New York, the leaders convinced me that the group was not a cult. They asked me what I had heard about the group and, after correcting minor mistaken notions I had, and after I had assured myself that I was not getting into something I would later regret being a part of, I became a member. Right away, a man was assigned to watch over me, answer my questions and keep me from knowing too much until they were sure of me. He even told me what to write in my letter to my parents. Those of us whose parents did not agree with the TFP soon found ourselves referring to our mothers and fathers as the "fountain of my revolution" (FMR). The inference was that each of us had a trace of the revolution in him, and it had been obtained as a result of the corruption and leniency of our parents. We were convinced to reject and ignore any advice from them, to see this corruption in all our family members, and to treat them accordingly. In time, I grew to despise my family. On one occasion when I was being encouraged in this attitude, I told the leaders that I had caused my mother to cry when I had talked with her by telephone. The leaders actually laughed. But, at the same time, we were urged to convince our parents that they should be proud of us because we were clean-cut gentlemen who were doing God's work.

It may seem odd that a group such as the TFP could attract and hold anyone's confidence and loyalty. But the appeal of spirituality was very strong. We all knew that something was wrong both in the world and in the Church. Here was a dedicated group living an exemplary semi-monastic life, ostensibly formed to fight the decay we knew existed. And we were young and inexperienced. I was actually convinced that I was in the Blessed Mother's special army.

The religious overtones were very heavy. We were encouraged to receive Holy Communion daily in the TFP Chapel. That it was distributed to us by a layman who was one of our own was done only out of supposed need. That need, of course, served to provide more evidence of the spread of the revolution. (A large number of hosts were consecrated three or four times a year by a visiting priest from Canada. He left them in our Chapel tabernacle.)

The converted mansion where about sixty of us lived was full of holy pictures, statues and other religious articles. We were required to pray all fifteen decades of the Rosary daily, and meditation was encouraged. Each evening, after dinner, instruction from Dr. Plinio was given to all. Most often, this instruction came via recordings; sometimes it was a printed message that was read. All messages were in the Portuguese language which was translated into English by one of the leaders.

We were led to believe that, if we left the TFP, Our Lady would chastise us because She did not want anyone to leave Her army. Many tales of terrible deaths suffered by those who left were recounted. We actually knew a Brazilian member who had been transferred to the United States, but who left the organization to get married. When he contracted a bone disease which killed him, many were pleased to learn that such justice had been delivered to a turncoat.

The atmosphere cultivated within this group is one which holds that the entire world is corrupt and only the TFP has escaped the corruption. Even traditional Catholics, such as Archbishop Lefebvre and his followers, are scorned—though never publicly.

Very few members ever attend Mass on Sundays, not because of any inability to locate a Tridentine Mass chapel, but because most do not want to go. A few do attend Mass at a nearby Byzantine Catholic Church. Members of the TFP derisively refer to faithful Catholics who do attend the Tridentine Mass as "trads." I was mocked one Sunday for reading the Mass to myself out of a missal. TFP leaders even joke about "trad" priests saying on one occasion that they would like to have one kept in the basement to be brought out when needed.

The TFP members I knew do not believe that Pope John Paul II is a true Pope because, according to them, he has excommunicated himself by stating heresy. The group believes that the See is vacant. Neither of these attitudes, nor many other of the aforementioned attitudes will ever be stated in public, however. TFP members are very anxious to cultivate a favorable image, even among those they constantly denigrate.

It is my hope that no one will accept the TFP at face value. I believe the group to be a dangerous cult which does harm to those within its web, and to the Catholic Church which I thought I was serving while I was with it.


SOURCE (http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773)
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 29, 2019, 06:06:54 PM
What exactly is "tau?" It's sounds a bit new-age. I see that it has something to do with being able to fight the revolution, but I've never  heard of anything like that in Church teaching.
I think Plinio made up the word.
From the Angelus article: TFP: A DANGEROUS CULT

John T. Armour
We were taught that . . .
Dr. Plinio has the power to read a man's soul in order to determine if he possesses "Tau," the vocation and quality to fight the revolution. He is even supposed to be able to make this determination from viewing a photograph. "Tau" can be found only in males.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on March 29, 2019, 07:20:49 PM

What exactly is "tau?" It's sounds a bit new-age. I see that it has something to do with being able to fight the revolution, but I've never  heard of anything like that in Church teaching.

Excerpt from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau


Tau has many other meanings, including the 19th letter of the Greek alphabet.

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on March 30, 2019, 02:08:31 AM

Let's stay on the topic here. 

In most of Cera's posts, she's been trying to divert attention from the real issue, which is Jade Liboro's and the SSPX's presence in Quito.

Atila claims Jade is SSPX and has open access to the Shrine's convent since 2014 and has stayed there up to six months at time.
Also, that she's been repeatedly seen involved in the Shrine's activities.  The question of "Why is she there?" is significant.

Yet, Cera says:

"All I could find out about this Catholic lady is this:
We had an apostolate in Tanay twice, assisting the faithful in St. Philomena Chapel to sing in the choir. We also helped Ate Jade Liboro in the distribution of St. Anthony's Bread for the poor in the slum areas in Payatas. Then also, we helped in the general cleaning of the Church in preparation for the grand welcome of the new prior, Fr. Adam Purdy."

Why does the content of the two accounts vary so greatly ?  

Cera is Jade's SSPX friend... correct?  If so, why then would Cera have such limited information?

Another interesting point is when Cera mentions Jade's connection with Fr. Purdy ?

Isn't Fr. Purdy being fingered for spearheading the SSPX campaign to discredit TIA's scholarly reputation and long friendship with the Shrine?

Many of us are familiar with Fr. Purdy.  Within the SSPX corporate organization, he is a low to mid-level management man.
There is no way Fr. Purdy would act independently in his campaign to penetrate the Shrine and discredit TIA.

He is backed by Fr. Wegner, the District Superior, PR guru and no doubt, his direct superiors in Menzingen.

This is the conspiracy story at hand... :ready-to-eat:

Note to Cera: If you want to post the old TFP conspiracy trash you dug-up online, please start your own topic on it.

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: chrstnoel1 on March 30, 2019, 03:28:35 AM
 :applause: :applause: :cheers:
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on March 30, 2019, 05:24:25 AM
Let's stay on the topic here.  

In most of Cera's posts, she's been trying to divert attention from the real issue, which is Jade Liboro's and the SSPX's presence in Quito.

Atila claims Jade is SSPX and has open access to the Shrine's convent since 2014 and has stayed there up to six months at time.
Also, that she's been repeatedly seen involved in the Shrine's activities.  The question of "Why is she there?" is significant.

Yet, Cera says:

"All I could find out about this Catholic lady is this:
We had an apostolate in Tanay twice, assisting the faithful in St. Philomena Chapel to sing in the choir. We also helped Ate Jade Liboro in the distribution of St. Anthony's Bread for the poor in the slum areas in Payatas. Then also, we helped in the general cleaning of the Church in preparation for the grand welcome of the new prior, Fr. Adam Purdy."

Why does the content of the two accounts vary so greatly ?  

Cera is Jade's SSPX friend... correct?  If so, why then would Cera have such limited information?

Another interesting point is when Cera mentions Jade's connection with Fr. Purdy ?

Isn't Fr. Purdy being fingered for spearheading the SSPX campaign to discredit TIA's scholarly reputation and long friendship with the Shrine?

Many of us are familiar with Fr. Purdy.  Within the SSPX corporate organization, he is a low to mid-level management man.
There is no way Fr. Purdy would act independently in his campaign to penetrate the Shrine and discredit TIA.

He is backed by Fr. Wegner, the District Superior, PR guru and no doubt, his direct superiors in Menzingen.

This is the conspiracy story at hand... :ready-to-eat:

Note to Cera: If you want to post the old TFP conspiracy trash you dug-up online, please start your own topic on it.

One of the reasons that Guimaraes is so concerned about the lady being there is because she supposedly is going after disciples of de Oliveira, with the goal of their expulsion. This is stated in the OP. Is that your concern as well? Or maybe one of your concerns?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on March 30, 2019, 11:36:07 AM
Matthew,

Thank you for allowing the discussion to continue on a new thread.

I don't have interest in any particular side of the problem of the Shrine in question, but I'm trying to understand what's going on there. It would seem that both the SSPX and followers of de Oliveira have a presence at the shrine, and there seems to be a rivalry or maybe resentment of both groups towards each other. From what I can tell, the SSPX don't really have more of a right to be there than followers of Plinio de Oliveira.

I think that this is the same shrine which was featured on another thread, where it was described that the statue of Our Lady would not allow itself to be carried by SSPX priests. I didn't pay much attention to the thread, but it might have something to do with this issue as well.

It would seem that there are supporters of TIA and Plinio de Oliveira here on the forum. That's not a problem, but maybe a problem does exist in that these supporters don't make it clear that they are on the side of TIA/de Oliveira. They aren't for the Resistance, but rather they are for Oliveira and TIA, which, from what I can tell, are not and have never been supporters of Archbishop Lefebvre. I just think that they should make their allegiance clear. It's not a big deal, but Archbishop Lefebvre was always honest and clear in his intentions. There was no reason for him not be as such. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 31, 2019, 07:30:42 PM
Let's stay on the topic here.  

In most of Cera's posts, she's been trying to divert attention from the real issue, which is Jade Liboro's and the SSPX's presence in Quito.

Atila claims Jade is SSPX and has open access to the Shrine's convent since 2014 and has stayed there up to six months at time.
Also, that she's been repeatedly seen involved in the Shrine's activities.  The question of "Why is she there?" is significant.

Yet, Cera says:

"All I could find out about this Catholic lady is this:
We had an apostolate in Tanay twice, assisting the faithful in St. Philomena Chapel to sing in the choir. We also helped Ate Jade Liboro in the distribution of St. Anthony's Bread for the poor in the slum areas in Payatas. Then also, we helped in the general cleaning of the Church in preparation for the grand welcome of the new prior, Fr. Adam Purdy."

Why does the content of the two accounts vary so greatly ?  

Cera is Jade's SSPX friend... correct?  If so, why then would Cera have such limited information?

Another interesting point is when Cera mentions Jade's connection with Fr. Purdy ?

Isn't Fr. Purdy being fingered for spearheading the SSPX campaign to discredit TIA's scholarly reputation and long friendship with the Shrine?

Many of us are familiar with Fr. Purdy.  Within the SSPX corporate organization, he is a low to mid-level management man.
There is no way Fr. Purdy would act independently in his campaign to penetrate the Shrine and discredit TIA.

He is backed by Fr. Wegner, the District Superior, PR guru and no doubt, his direct superiors in Menzingen.

This is the conspiracy story at hand... :ready-to-eat:

Note to Cera: If you want to post the old TFP conspiracy trash you dug-up online, please start your own topic on it.
I came to this topic with an open mind and shared what I was able to find about a lady who was being attacked by Atila. Where do you even get the notion that I know her or that she is my friend? Please try to deal with facts my friend, and let us at least attempt to be charitable and avoid personal attacks.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on March 31, 2019, 07:36:50 PM
(According to TIA and their "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activist source. . .)

Card. Newman Recognized as a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ
 
 In reaction to the request of Catholic Prelates to civil authorities for permission to transfer the body of Cardinal John Henry Newman from the city of Rednal, England, to a place in Birmingham Oratory church, recent breaking news (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B206_gαyNewman.html) revealed that Cardinal Newman was an alleged ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ. He was buried in Rednal alongside his lover Ambrose St. John at his express will. In its August 22, 2008 issue, National Catholic Reporter, another credible source, confirms that information.
 https://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_107_NewmanHomo.html (https://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_107_NewmanHomo.html)
 
 The story originated with Radical ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activist, Peter Tatchel
 http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/e5f8488c4feced4c94abce26acaaee2b-449.html (http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/e5f8488c4feced4c94abce26acaaee2b-449.html)
 

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 01, 2019, 08:45:12 AM
(According to TIA and their "ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activist source. . .)

Card. Newman Recognized as a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ
 
 In reaction to the request of Catholic Prelates to civil authorities for permission to transfer the body of Cardinal John Henry Newman from the city of Rednal, England, to a place in Birmingham Oratory church, recent breaking news (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/B206_gαyNewman.html) revealed that Cardinal Newman was an alleged ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ. He was buried in Rednal alongside his lover Ambrose St. John at his express will. In its August 22, 2008 issue, National Catholic Reporter, another credible source, confirms that information.
 https://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_107_NewmanHomo.html (https://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_107_NewmanHomo.html)
 
 The story originated with Radical ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ activist, Peter Tatchel
 http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/e5f8488c4feced4c94abce26acaaee2b-449.html (http://www.realclearreligion.com/index_files/e5f8488c4feced4c94abce26acaaee2b-449.html)

If you were a real professor, you'd know the amount of extensive scholarship that TIA put into the analysis of Cardinal Neuman's life.

In an age of newChurch faux saints, Neuman's Canonization by B16 was on par with the Pope Paul VI's beatification.

And Neuman's history can be found from a variety of Catholic sources, not just from a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ writer, as you imply.

He was a Jєω, and writer of Protestant books, but he never refuted those writings, even after he was elevated to a Prince of the Church.

His relationship and burial alongside of Ambrose St. John was scandalous... a man being buried alongside another man.
How Providentially comical that when they opened his coffin, there was no body to venerate.

He was one of the few members of Vatican I that voted against the dogma of papal infallibility.

And how appropriate that the "Jєω cardinal" brought Temple menorahs and installed them in a Catholic sanctuary.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Mqrqg7qtCrk/U4Okl9fxkhI/AAAAAAAAB0I/_uCuZUFqDpA/s1600/IMG_8979.jpg)
He's the perfect neo-saint for you to venerate Cera.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 01, 2019, 02:37:51 PM

Incredulous, you said “If you were a real professor, you'd know the amount of extensive scholarship that TIA put into the analysis of Cardinal Neuman's life.” That is nonsensical. Being a scholar and professor does not endow one with extra sensory perception. Rather, it equips one to follow up on the source material provided by the author.

Sadly, in attacking St. Cardinal Neuman, Atila simply babbled on about his personal opinions, failing to provide any research whatsoever to support his weak hypothesis. Although he failed to give his one source, we now know that it was a sodomite activist (cited earlier in thread). Interesting source material for a purported Traditional Catholic, isn’t it?

Only a person mesmerized by a cult of personality could fail to see both the evil and the intellectual dishonesty in Atila’s continual attacks on good Catholic priests, the good Bishop Lefebvre, and St. Cardinal Neuman.

You will be in my prayers, as are all those caught up in the personality cult of Atila, Plinio and Plinio’s mother.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 01, 2019, 09:53:42 PM
Incredulous, you said “If you were a real professor, you'd know the amount of extensive scholarship that TIA put into the analysis of Cardinal Neuman's life.” That is nonsensical. Being a scholar and professor does not endow one with extra sensory perception. Rather, it equips one to follow up on the source material provided by the author.

Sadly, in attacking St. Cardinal Neuman, Atila simply babbled on about his personal opinions, failing to provide any research whatsoever to support his weak hypothesis. Although he failed to give his one source, we now know that it was a sodomite activist (cited earlier in thread). Interesting source material for a purported Traditional Catholic, isn’t it?

Only a person mesmerized by a cult of personality could fail to see both the evil and the intellectual dishonesty in Atila’s continual attacks on good Catholic priests, the good Bishop Lefebvre, and St. Cardinal Neuman.

You will be in my prayers, as are all those caught up in the personality cult of Atila, Plinio and Plinio’s mother.
Now you're throwing Prof. Plinio's mother into this?
That is another long-discredited myth.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 02, 2019, 09:07:53 AM
Incredulous, you said “If you were a real professor, you'd know the amount of extensive scholarship that TIA put into the analysis of Cardinal Neuman's life.” That is nonsensical. Being a scholar and professor does not endow one with extra sensory perception. Rather, it equips one to follow up on the source material provided by the author.

Sadly, in attacking St. Cardinal Neuman, Atila simply babbled on about his personal opinions, failing to provide any research whatsoever to support his weak hypothesis. Although he failed to give his one source, we now know that it was a sodomite activist (cited earlier in thread). Interesting source material for a purported Traditional Catholic, isn’t it?

Only a person mesmerized by a cult of personality could fail to see both the evil and the intellectual dishonesty in Atila’s continual attacks on good Catholic priests, the good Bishop Lefebvre, and St. Cardinal Neuman.

You will be in my prayers, as are all those caught up in the personality cult of Atila, Plinio and Plinio’s mother.

The source material is important. Atila stated his view of the matter of Cardinal Neuman being a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, but there wasn't any proof provided for it, other than the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ source. It's possible that Cardinal Neuman was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ, but there still isn't definate proof, other than what we've already seen over the years, such as Neuman wanting to be buried next to the other convert; a man with whom he had a very close friendship. I must confess that I've also wondered if Cardinal Neuman was a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.  But would Cardinal Neuman really have made his relationship so obvious in a time when it wasn't acceptable? Probably not. We may never know if Neuman was really a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ.

You mentioned that Atila has attacked Archbishop Lefebvre. Has there been a long-standing animosity of Atila toward the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre? Do you happen to know if Plinio de Oliveira felt the same way about +ABL? If so, I have to wonder why.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 02, 2019, 10:04:12 AM


Meg,

You obviously don't know much about TIA.

They don't use ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to make their arguments for them.

TIA researched Cardinal Neuman's contradictory life after Pope Benedict XVI was ram-roding him through the canonization process.
If you recall, he had by-passed the long-held traditional investigation and hearings used by our Church Fathers, to determined the merit of Sainthood. 

Let me ask you Meg... do you believe John XXIII, Pope Paul VI and JPII are saints?  Well if you do, your on the wrong forum.
B16 helped create the modernist "Saint factory".

TIA's work is scholarly, with legitimate sources and cross-references. Here is an example: Another look at John Neuman (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_028br_Newman.htm)
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page of this link, you find multiple articles on Neuman's works and life that make him one of the most questionable saints of the 21st Century.

Note: By Card. Neuman's own words, he laid down in bed with his buddy Ambrose as he was on his deathbed.
Only a Jєω cardinal would do something like this.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 02, 2019, 10:10:55 AM

Meg,

You obviously don't know much about TIA.

They don't use ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs to make their arguments for them.

TIA researched Cardinal Neuman's contradictory life after Pope Benedict XVI was ram-roding him through the canonization process.
If you recall, he had by-passed the long-held traditional investigation and hearings used by our Church Fathers, to determined the merit of Sainthood.  

Let me ask you Meg... do you believe John XXIII, Pope Paul VI and JPII are saints?  Well if you do, your on the wrong forum.
B16 helped create the modernist "Saint factory".

TIA's work is scholarly, with legitimate sources and cross-references. Here is an example: Another look at John Neuman (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bkreviews/A_028br_Newman.htm)
If you scroll down to the bottom of the page of this link, you find multiple articles on Neuman's works and life that make him one of the most questionable saints of the 21st Century.

Note: By Card. Neuman's own words, he laid down in bed with his buddy Ambrose as he was on his deathbed.
Only a Jєω cardinal would do something like this.

No, I don't believe that any of the conciliar or post-conciliar popes are saints.

However, I do believe in the valid and justifiable mission of Archbishop Lefebvre. Do you?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 02, 2019, 11:05:03 AM
No, I don't believe that any of the conciliar or post-conciliar popes are saints.

However, I do believe in the valid and justifiable mission of Archbishop Lefebvre. Do you?

  +ABL's "valid & justifiable mission"... that's a rather broad concept.

  Please explain to me what exactly what that was ?

  To preserve the traditional Catholic priesthood, I believe is his claim.

Note: Do we agree, if you doubt the sanctity of the modernist popes, you should do more research on Cardinal Neuman too?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 02, 2019, 11:24:04 AM
 +ABL's "valid & justifiable mission"... that's a rather broad concept.

  Please explain to me what exactly what that was ?

  To preserve the traditional Catholic priesthood, I believe is his claim.

Note: Do we agree, if you doubt the sanctity of the modernist popes, you should do more research on Cardinal Neuman too?

Yes, to preserve the traditional priesthood is a big part of it. But also to preserve all of the traditional sacraments and Mass, as well as the Faith as it was practiced before that "Council."

In this context, do you believe that +ABL's mission was valid and justifiable?

I'm just asking because it seems that the followers of Plinio de Oliveira are not and have not been supporters of +ABL, from what I can tell. From what I've read (which hasn't been much) it would seem that TFP and Oliveira believed in a type of priesthood of the laity, and there haven't been very many priests associated with TFP. I don't know if they just believe that the priesthood is thoroughly corrupt and beyond hope, or if they (you as well?) believe that the Faith can be practiced by the laity without much interference by priests (except for the occasional consecration of hosts).
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 02, 2019, 01:42:29 PM
Yes, to preserve the traditional priesthood is a big part of it. But also to preserve all of the traditional sacraments and Mass, as well as the Faith as it was practiced before that "Council."

In this context, do you believe that +ABL's mission was valid and justifiable?

I'm just asking because it seems that the followers of Plinio de Oliveira are not and have not been supporters of +ABL, from what I can tell. From what I've read (which hasn't been much) it would seem that TFP and Oliveira believed in a type of priesthood of the laity, and there haven't been very many priests associated with TFP. I don't know if they just believe that the priesthood is thoroughly corrupt and beyond hope, or if they (you as well?) believe that the Faith can be practiced by the laity without much interference by priests (except for the occasional consecration of hosts).

I think +ABL's claim was as simple as the priesthood, which come the Sacraments.

As practiced before the Council is debatable, if you have issues with the "indulted" 1962 missal and the 1950s' changes
that Pacelli/Bugnini put into place, positioning for VII.

I think +ABL was a valid practitioner of Catholic tradition, but there are many issues that lack consistency.
For example his discussion of (4) Baptisms in his book, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".

Obviously, his apostolate was hijacked, but it is not clear when? 
Did he really write the (4) Baptisms or was it inserted after he finished the original manuscript?

Now, the SSPX is obviously being used and financed as the controlled opposition by the enemies of the Church.
Did this conspiracy go all the way back to Bp. Fellay's consecration?   It's not yet clear.

On Dr. Plineo, TFP and TIA, there is a long history which involved treachery and infiltration. TIA and TFP are enemies going on 18 years now. Were you aware of that? 

Dr. Plineo was a gifted genius, who saw through the abuse and weaknesses of religious orders to fight the battle for the Faith. 
He's been maligned and discredited by his enemies for their political reasons. 

It is known that Dr. Plineo commissioned Atila to research the true root theology behind Vatican II.
After much scholarship (to which Cera is clueless) he proved the VII docuмents were not Catholic.

This discovery does much to discredit the SSPX's premise that dialogue with newChurch is plausible.  It is not.
Therefore, TIA is an arch enemy of the neo-SSPX.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 02, 2019, 01:56:11 PM
I think +ABL's claim was as simple as the priesthood, which come the Sacraments.

As practiced before the Council is debatable, if you have issues with the "indulted" 1962 missal and the 1950s' changes
that Pacelli/Bugnini put into place, positioning for VII.

I think +ABL was a valid practitioner of Catholic tradition, but there are many issues that lack consistency.
For example his discussion of (4) Baptisms in his book, "Open Letter to Confused Catholics".

Obviously, his apostolate was hijacked, but it is not clear when?  
Did he really write the (4) Baptisms or was it inserted after he finished the original manuscript?

Now, the SSPX is obviously being used and financed as the controlled opposition by the enemies of the Church.
Did this conspiracy go all the way back to Bp. Fellay's consecration?   It's not yet clear.


There's a lot to address in your post, but I'll start with +ABL. As far as the 1962 missal goes, +ABL allowed for the missal, even though it was not ideal. If you have an issue with it, that's fine. Did Plinio de Oliveira believe that the missal should not be used?

I'm not aware of +ABL's 4 baptisms. Did Plinio de Oliveira have an issue with it?

Yes, there are areas in the stances of +ABL that lack consistency. IMO, that happens in a Crisis. Unless, of course, you believe that Plinio de Oliveira was always consistent. But then he was just a layperson who developed his own apostolate. He was not responsible for a seminary or fraternity.

Yes, the SSPX has now gone in a direction opposed to the intention of +ABL. We already know that.

Question: what did Plinio de Oliveira think of +ABL and the SSPX while +ABL was still alive?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 02, 2019, 02:15:45 PM
On Dr. Plineo, TFP and TIA, there is a long history which involved treachery and infiltration. TIA and TFP are enemies going on 18 years now. Were you aware of that?  

Dr. Plineo was a gifted genius, who saw through the abuse and weaknesses of religious orders to fight the battle for the Faith.  
He's been maligned and discredited by his enemies for their political reasons.  

It is known that Dr. Plineo commissioned Atila to research the true root theology behind Vatican II.
After much scholarship (to which Cera is clueless) he proved the VII docuмents were not Catholic.

This discovery does much to discredit the SSPX's premise that dialogue with newChurch is plausible.  It is not.
Therefore, TIA is an arch enemy of the neo-SSPX.

I'd like to address the second part of your post. Yes, I know that there are issues between TIA and TFP. Do you believe that it is because TFP doesn't like Atila's research into Vatican ll? Or something like that?

It would seem that you believe that the SSPX considers TIA to be an arch enemy because TIA believes that dialogue with NewChurch is not plausible due to Vatican ll. Would that be right? I'm surprised that the SSPX would consider TIA to be such an arch enemy. Is TIA really all that influential? I consider them to be a little group. But maybe they aren't so small. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 02, 2019, 06:17:33 PM
TIA followers are told that Atila was kicked out of TFP because of a book he wrote.
The truth is that in 1996 a book which exposed TFP as a cult made it a good time for Atila to leave and come to the U.S. and start TIA, pretending he had "broken" with TFP.
The book is not available in English, but these excerpts are:

TIA 1996 Expose
Rimini 1996 Book exposing TFP (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?

"During its 23rd plenary assembly, the Council of Brazilian bishops approved a note concerning the 'Brazilian Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family and Property', advising Catholics not to join the above mentioned Society […]. Its esoteric character, its religious fanaticism, the personality cult of the founder and of his mother, the abuse of the name of the Virgin Mary […] can absolutely not be approved of by the Church" 
  (Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, front piece)

"TFP is a heretical sect since, although they do not say so in words or in writing, lives and acts according to a principle which undermines the very basis of all true Christianity, that is the Catholic church".
 (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 6)
 
 "Plants will bleed; there will be a fight between angels and demons, and the TFP militants, surrounded and helped by angels, will become the instruments of conversion or condemnation. They will then lead public campaigns to denounce evildoers. Then the good, after having been converted, will gather around TFP".
 (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 35)
 

The cult of Mary, in T.F.P., revolves largely around a statue of the Virgin of Fatima which supposedly wept in New Orleans, before being bought by Doctor Plinio, which the organization calls the "Holy Statue", and which Plinio claimed used to provide him with precious information on the world situation (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 31).       

"Virtually every meeting with Doctor Plinio revolves around the 'bagarre'. Generally, whenever he speaks of the coming cataclysm, his words are drowned out by frantic applause from those present. All the militants stand up and shout three times, as loudly as possible, 'Tradition-Family-Property-Bagarre". This triple slogan often finishes with a triple cry "Plinio"!!"
 (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 33)

"This must not come as a surprise; since you belong to TFP, you will be treated as if you belonged to a cult, by your very parents and friends! It will be terrible, and it will be hard indeed to stay faithful."
  (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 38)

Plinio's denial of the future role of priests - and the exclusion in the present of priests from all the more secret aspects of the group - led Monsignor Castro de Mayer, for decades Plinio's patron among the Brazilian bishops, to state:
    "TFP is a heretical sect since, although they do not say so in words or in writing, lives and acts according to a principle which undermines the very basis of all true Christianity, that is the Catholic church".
  (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 6)
               
dedicated to Dona Lucilia, the mother of Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira:

Lady Lucilia, pray for us 
Mother of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us 
Mother of the Doctor of the Church, pray for us 
Mother of our Father, pray for us 
Mother of the Unspeakable, pray for us 
Mother of all of us, pray for us 
Mother of the coming centuries, pray for us 
Mother of the Axiological Principle, pray for us 
Mother of the Temperament of Synthesis, pray for us 
Mother of all purity, pray for us 
Mother of the Trans-sphere, pray for us 
Mother of Seriousness, pray for us 
Mother of the Counter-Revolution, pray for us 
Restorer of Temperaments, pray for us 
Source of Light, pray for us 
Procreator of Innocence, pray for us 
Preserver of Innocence, pray for us 
Consoler of Mister Doctor Plinio, pray for us 
Mediator of the Grand Retour, pray for us 
Mediator of all our graces, pray for us 
Dawn of the Kingdom of Mary, pray for us 
Lady Lucilia of the smile, pray for us 
Lady Lucilia of Flashes*, pray for us 
Most beautiful flower of all, pray for us 
Our refuge, pray for us 
Our consoler, pray for us 
Our help in the Bagarre, pray for us 
Reason of our perseverance, pray for us 
Vase of logic, pray for us 
Vase of metaphysics, pray for us 
Martyr of isolation, pray for us 
Queen of serene suffering, pray for us 
Queen of loveliness, pray for us 
Queen of serenity, pray for us 
Lady Lucilia, our Mother and Lady, help us 
Lady Lucilia, our greatest mediator before the Virgin, help us 

(quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, pp. 70-71)       

"Very often, after having spoken of his youth, Doctor Plinio speaks about his childhood, bringing back very precise memories of when he was three or four. He says that on the day of his baptism, the bells started ringing by themselves, without any natural explanation. He very soon was able to judge his parents: his father, Dr Joâo Paulo Corrêa de Oliveira, an unbelieving liberal; his mother, a woman who was always perfect. He very early realised the deep difference between himself, his cousins, and his friends, and started hurling invectives against them, accusing them of not being counter-revolutionary. During a trip to France, when he was about 4 or 5, he went to the puppet theatre at the Luxembourg gardens, in Paris. Struck by the anticlericalism of the puppet, he jumped up on his chair and, lifting an accusing finger, attacked the puppet and defended the Catholic religion. He dedicated himself to the Virgin as soon as he achieved the age of reason, and devoted himself to the Counter-Revolution. Soon after, having seen a book about Charlemagne, he made his parents buy it, thus discovering his first model."
 (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, pp. 56-7)
 



One of Plinio's prophecies has definitely not come true: he claimed he would personally crown the Virgin with a crown currently possessed by TFP in Brazil (Tradizione Famiglia e Proprietà: associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 61).

One interesting consequence of this future Kingdom will be that priests will no longer be needed; at least according to the former TFP followers, this is the real meaning of Plinio's following statement:
    "The Kingdom of Mary will therefore be a time when the union of souls with the Virgin will reach an intensity without any precedent in history, of course with individual exceptions. What form will this supreme union take? I know of no more perfect means of implementing this union than the sacred slavery to the Virgin, as taught by Saint Louis Grignion de Montfort [more on him later] in his Treatise on True Devotion to Mary."
 ("La devozione mariana e l'apostolato contro-rivoluzionario", in Cristianità, nov.- dic. 1995, p. 15.)
 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 03, 2019, 01:30:45 PM
Defenders of Plinio and Atila? I hear only crickets.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 03, 2019, 01:46:53 PM
I'd like to address the second part of your post. Yes, I know that there are issues between TIA and TFP. Do you believe that it is because TFP doesn't like Atila's research into Vatican ll? Or something like that?

It would seem that you believe that the SSPX considers TIA to be an arch enemy because TIA believes that dialogue with NewChurch is not plausible due to Vatican ll. Would that be right? I'm surprised that the SSPX would consider TIA to be such an arch enemy. Is TIA really all that influential? I consider them to be a little group. But maybe they aren't so small.
Meg,

Sorry for the late response.

I'm not positive what Plineo thought of the SSPX?
However, the SSPX took a position against him.  It can be found in Dr. White's book the "Mouth of the Dragon".

In it, Dr. White explains how Bp. Castro Mayer distanced himself from TFP because Plineo would not let the priests lead the movement.  I bought this explanation for some time, but later came to realize Plineo's insistence on lay run "Catholic Action" was correct.

The examples of how Pope Pius XI was tricked into shutting down Action Francaise in the 1930s is one.
The ʝʊdɛօ-masonics loved this. The pope neutralized his own forces.

But if you look at how the SSPX became hijacked and are now misleading the faithful, Plinoe was right.

The priestly orders operate under obedience and are always conflicted when it comes to action.
The can counsel, guide and assist the laity with the Sacraments, but it is not their position to lead them in the battle.



Here's his bio from TIA:

Biography of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
A Life Dedicated to Combat
 
Atila Sinke Guimarães
Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (1908-1995) was born into two traditional Brazilian families, his mother’s family from São Paulo – Ribeiro dos Santos – and his father’s from Pernambuco – Corrêa de Oliveira. The former was known for its social distinction, the latter for its intelligence and oratory skills. Plinio inherited the characteristics of both families.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Legionario.jpg)

When young, Plinio was the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil
After being formed in the Jesuit school of São Paulo and receiving a degree in Law, he entered the Catholic Movement and became the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil. The force of this Movement was such that in 1934 it elected Plinio, at age 24, to the National Congress, making him not only the country’s youngest representative, but also the one who received the most votes. In the House he fought to defend the civil rights of the Church and to pass laws, which for a long time upheld Catholic principles and institutions in the country.

Subsequent to his term in the House, he earned a chair in History of Civilization at the Law Faculty of São Paulo and another in Modern and Contemporary History at the Catholic Pontifical University, also in São Paulo.

In 1933, he was asked by the Cardinal of São Paulo to direct the Archdiocesan weekly journal O Legionário (The Legionary). For many years he was its editor and gathered around him a group of distinguished writers who followed him on a lifetime journey. From a simple Archdiocesan bulletin the paper was transformed in the late ‘30s and ‘40s into the most influential Catholic organ of the country.

The writers of O Legionário became famous for their pugnacious stand against Communism, nαzιsm and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as well as for defending Christian Civilization and championing a culture coherent with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. In the religious sphere, they combated the nascent Progressivism, which was rising from the ashes of Modernism with the same poison, but new tactics, higher ambitions and a more prudent posturing.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Meyer.jpg)

Fr. Castro Mayer alongside Prof. Plinio and the Legionário team of writers

Those writers considered themselves continuers of the ultramontane movement of the 19th century in Europe. Among others, two priests joined the group: Fr. Geraldo Sigaud and Fr. Antônio de Castro Mayer.

In 1940, Prof. Plinio was chosen to be president of Catholic Action in São Paulo. From this post, he carefully watched the insidious progressivist infiltration into the religious milieu. By 1943 he fully realized its maneuvers and wrote a book denouncing its strategy – In Defense of the Catholic Action (Em Defesa da Ação Católica). Later he described the launching of that book as a kamikaze operation: he delayed the influence of Progressivism in Brazil, but blew up his own career along with the target.

Indeed, the Cardinal of São Paulo who favored his work died and, after the short term of another, a progressivist took his place in 1944. Prof. Plinio lost the presidency of Catholic Action and the direction of O Legionário. A phase of persecution and ostracism began.

He and the two mentioned priests agreed to continue the Counter-Revolution despite the consequences. Sometime later, Fr. Sigaud was made Bishop, followed by Fr. Castro Mayer. The union of the three was so strong that each Bishop adopted in his coat-of-arms the rampant lion Prof. Plinio had chosen to symbolize his fight.

A new monthly paper, edited and published in São Paulo with the approval of Castro Mayer, now Bishop of Campos, took the name Catolicismo (1951) and recommenced the public fight. The Catolicismo group attracted younger persons, who drew in yet others. With this growing movement, in 1960 he founded the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property – the TFP.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_1959_RCR.jpg) Published in 1959 Revolution and Counter-Revolution became the handbook for the TFPs everywhere
To provide guidelines for that group, in 1959 Prof. Plinio wrote Revolution and Counter-Revolution (http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0038/) – R-CR, which became his masterpiece. In it he analyzed the Revolution’s historical process that started in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance and Humanism were its first manifestations; later it generated Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism.

He also described its later phases: namely, the Fourth Revolution (the Cultural Revolution of the ‘60s), which tends toward Tribalism (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/j028htTribalism_PCO.htm) and a Pentecostal religion; the metamorphosis of Communism after the dissolution of the USSR; the infiltration of Progressivism in the Church, which changed the focus of the R-CR fight. Now, it had to be fought inside the Church.

The ideals of R-CR extended to other countries. In 1995, at his death, there were TFPs and similar organizations in 26 countries.

In the early ‘60s, Brazil was threatened by Communism, supported by Progressivism in the Church. Both were proponents of a socialist land reform to destabilize farmers, the backbone of the country's economy. With economist Mendonça de Freitas, Prof. Plinio wrote a book against land reform and invited the Bishops to sign it: Agrarian Reform – a Question of Conscience (1963). A success, the book became the pivot for an enormous public reaction against Communism. An undesired byproduct of this general dissatisfaction was a military coup that deposed the brazenly red president-to-be and installed a socialist dictatorship in the country.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Rome.jpg)Prof. Plinio leaves Rome when he realizes he has done all he could at the Council
In 1959, John XXIII announced his intention to convene a Council. Prof. Plinio warned Archbishop Sigaud and Bishop Mayer that they should study and prepare themselves intensively or they would be defeated by the progressivists at the Council. Unfortunately, they did not heed his advice.

Notwithstanding, Prof. Plinio, along with about 20 laymen, accompanied the Bishops to Rome for the First Session with the hope that they would have a positive influence. With these laymen he organized two petitions, signed by hundreds of Bishops: one asking the Council to condemn Communism; the other asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as commanded in Fatima.

He sought out the Bishops of Communism-dominated countries asking them to affirm that the Church-Communism coexistence is against Catholic doctrine. Ukrainian Archbishop Ivan Bucko agreed to state this at the Council. Prof. Plinio wrote an intervention for him, but Msgr. Bucko changed his mind and did not address the topic in the Council. In May 1964, Prof. Plinio published that study: The Church and the Communist State: The Impossible Coexistence.

As the first session came to its end, Prof. Plinio realized that the progressivists were in complete control and suggested that the two Brazilian Bishops unmask their maneuvers. He proposed that they solemnly walk from the door of St. Peter’s Basilica to the main table in the conciliar hall, passing by the 2,300 Bishops assembled there. Then, before the whole assembly, they should expose the progressivist agenda for the Council and state that they were leaving in protest. Outside the doors, journalists would be waiting to interview them and spread the news. This dramatic rupture was meant to abort the entire spectacle of Vatican II. Unfortunately, the Bishops did not follow his advice.

He did not return to the Council, which followed that progressivist path until its end.

In 1965, Prof. Plinio wrote a book denouncing the popular new dialogue with communists: Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue. Although the approach of the study was temporal, it also applied to the religious dialogue being promoted by John XXIII and Paul VI insofar as dialogue was used not to convert heretics but to make them comfortable in their errors.

After the Council’s closing, he received in Brazil the two returning Bishops. They had signed all its docuмents and told him, [paraphrasing]: “Now, we need to work on our group so they will accept the Council.” Prof. Plinio opposed the proposition, saying: “Your Excellencies can fry or cook the Council any way you want. I will never eat it.”

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Siguad.jpg)Archbishop Sigaud tries to implement the Council - Prof. Plinio disagrees
There was no rupture, but this divergence projected shadows on their decades-old relationship.

Eventually, the two Bishops would break their agreement to stand together in the fight. Some years later Archbishop Sigaud distanced himself. He publicly supported the socialist military regime. His reason? “The military regime started the Reign of Mary predicted in Fatima”…

In the mid ‘70s a lawsuit against the TFP called on Bishop Mayer to testify. He made a sworn statement that throughout more than 40 years of close collaboration he had never seen anything in TFP or in Prof. Plinio’s actions or thoughts that went against Catholic doctrine.

However, in 1983, he took a public stand against Prof. Plinio. Why this change?

In the late ‘70s, a certain Fr. Fernando Rifan (https://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f017ht_Rifan_02.htm) – an expert in intrigue – was gaining the ear of Bishop Mayer. Rifan, who hated Prof. Plinio and the TFP, induced the Bishop to soften his position against Progressivism to the point that Bishop Mayer in some talks assumed the principles of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. In Rome he was photographed holding hands with JPII. Consequently, his visits to São Paulo ceased.

In the early ‘80s, a rancorous high-school teacher, Orlando Fedeli, left the TFP because he felt his talents were not sufficiently recognized. At his rupture he wrote three letters disclosing “evidence” that Prof. Plinio had transformed the TFP into “a cult to worship himself and his mother.” Soon after he left, he sold his story to one of the largest Brazilian newspapers with close ties to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ – O Estado de São Paulo – which started a boisterous defamatory campaign.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_profile.jpg)Facing multiple defamatory campaigns with serenity and firmness
Encouraged by Rifan, Fedeli consulted with Bishop Mayer about a litany that two naïve teenagers had made in honor of Prof. Plinio’s mother. As soon as that litany was discovered, it had been forbidden by Dr. Plinio, but Fedeli did not inform Bishop Mayer of this “detail.” He presented the litany as if it were a prayer commonly said throughout the TFP with Prof. Plinio’s approval. Bishop Mayer condemned the litany as going against Catholic doctrine. This was in 1983.

This condemnation and Fedeli’s accusations were duly refuted and the docuмents were reviewed by famous theologians in Spain. They issued a verdict affirming the refutation to be sound and Bishop Mayer’s condemnation “poorly made and difficult to understand.” It judged that some of the litany’s ejaculations were “naïve, others ambiguous and yet others extravagant” and praised Prof. Plinio for having forbidden its recitation. But they considered it “exaggerated to label them as heterodox or blasphemous, not taking into consideration the relative nature of the language being used.” Bishop Mayer judged it prudent not to reply.

The Brazilian TFP published 2,000 copies of that refutation and full-page newspaper ads to inform the public of this judgment favoring Prof. Plinio.

In response, Fedeli went to Spain to try to bribe the principle theologian who made the review. He was duly shown out of the room. Fr. Rifan, who at the time was very close to the Society of St. Pius X, spread the same lies to this organization, which continues to propagate them among its priests and seminarians.

This campaign is just one in a list of many defamatory offensives made against Prof. Plinio.

The Brazilian TFP was also condemned at various times by the very progressivist Brazilian Bishops. Some of these condemnations were duly answered; others not, simply because they were too biased to be credible.

Altogether Prof. Plinio published 15 books.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Divorce.jpg)A TFP street campaign celebrating the defeat of divorce
He also spearheaded many petition drives carried out by the TFP including:
It was Prof. Plinio who asked Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira to study Paul VI’s New Mass (1969) as well as the possibility of a heretic Pope. Silveira’s book was published in Portuguese (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_612_AX-Port.pdf) (1972) and in French (1975). [An English version is available here] (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_612_AX-English.pdf)

After Paul VI launched Liberation Theology in Medellin, Colombia (1968), Prof. Plinio made several campaigns against this new thrust of communist infiltration in the Church.

In 1974 he wrote a position of resistance against the Vatican Ostpolitik, that is, its collaboration with the communist regimes. This Declaration of Resistance (https://www.traditioninaction.org/bestof/bst004plinio.htm), which made him the pioneer of Catholic Resistance, was published in 21 newspapers in 10 countries.

In 1982 he asked me to write and publish a collection analyzing Vatican II, which I did (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/000_Index.html) under his guidance and encouragement.

Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira was the Catholic giant who, for many decades, held Communism at bay in South America. He also held back the advance of Progressivism in the Church as much as he could.

One aspect that official biographies of this Catholic thinker and man of action do not address is the moral and physical sufferings Prof. Plinio endured.

In the mid ‘70s, seeing how worldly and lukewarm TFP members had become, he offered his life to Our Lady to redeem that situation. Some days later, on February 3, 1975, he was in a serious car accident, suffering a broken hand, arm, leg and hip as well as severe injuries to his eyelids, lips and teeth. These graves lesions demanded multiple surgeries, causing him enormous moral and physical sufferings. The arm, leg and hip surgeries had to be made twice, still without success. The effects of that accident remained with him to the end of his days, obliging him to rely on crutches or a wheelchair.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_ccidente.jpg)A tragic car accident that won more
20 years of fight for the TFPs
This suffering bought 20 more years of life for the TFPs. Toward the end, however, he confided to some friends: “If I were not in a wheelchair, they would expel me from the TFP.” He was referring to the directors who in theory followed his orientation, but in practice moved the TFP to a position of indifference and mediocrity.

When he was dying in the hospital in 1995, those directors lost no time in sending a letter (https://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/A004_tfp.htm#Q6) to the Cardinal Primate of Brazil, committing the TFP not to speak publicly against Vatican II, the New Mass or the Pope.

A few years after his death, a split among his followers over the question of authority took place. Today, one faction – which includes the American TFP – upholds that same agreement with the Vatican; the other completely adhered to the Conciliar Church. Many members of the latter became priests and have comfortable ecclesiastical careers.

Sadly, both sides had become weary of the fight against Progressivism, had reduced Prof. Plinio to a museum artifact and merged – in different ways and degrees – with that same enemy against which Prof. Plinio had fought his entire life.

(https://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_PCOlg.jpg) With his symbol the rampant lion
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 03, 2019, 03:19:08 PM
Incredulous,

Thanks for your response. You mentioned that if we look at how the SSPX has been hijacked and are now misleading the faithful, then Plineo was right. And you mentioned also that the priestly orders cannot lead the battle, due to being conflicted when it comes to action because of obedience. 

I can understand that POV, and there s a certain logic in it; however, there have been a lot of divisions in the ranks of the TFP as well. There's nothing to say that priests must lead the battle - I think you're right about that. However, a priest who is properly formed in theology and has a good understanding of human nature will not allow himself, or will be less likely, to have himself put on a pedestal by the laity. That seems to be the main problem with TFP with regards to De Oliveira. 

Another thing I notice is that there is very little hope for those who are in error, according to the dictates of TFP and De Oliveira. Everything is either good or evil, and we have to pick a side. But love and forgiveness of those who are in error don't seem to have a presence in that apostolate. None at all. For example, you'll notice that +W and others in the Resistance don't give up on the SSPX. They have hope, even though it is small. That's one of the endearing things about the Resistance. Do you know what I mean? 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 03, 2019, 03:27:40 PM
Meg,
TFP is a “heretical sect,” which pretends to be Catholic, but is actually an anti-Catholic and anti-clerical cult of personality which worships Plinio according to Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop of Campos, Brazil. The Bishop says “TFP lives and behaves in accord with a principle which fundamentally undermines the truth of Christianity, that is, of the Catholic Church.”

The Bishop, who was for decades had been deluded by TFP to believe that they were Catholic, in this letter consoles a mother whose son lost his Catholic faith when he too became deluded b the TFP cult.

The Bishop points out that it is a “ heretical subversion to habitually follow a lay person, ---therefore, not a member of the Hierarchy--- as the spokesman of orthodoxy. Thus, they do not look to what the Church says, what the Bishops say, rather what this or that one says.... Nor does it end there: this attitude------even if not openly avowed---actually positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a subtle but real mistrust of the hierarchy and of the clergy in general.”

Rhis letter was published in the Campos daily, La Folha de Manhà in 1991; the original text, however, is dated 1984, two years after Bishop de Castro Mayer's break with TFP. It appeared in Le Sel de la Terre, [no. 28, Spring 1999], in an article entitled, "Docuмents sur la T.F.P".

Dear XXXXX,
I owe a response to your grieving letter of September 24, which, as the postmark indicates, you sent me on September 25.

In this case, I can only offer the sole advice: pray, pray much, above all the Rosary or at least the five decades of the Rosary, asking the Virgin Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, to enlighten your son and make him see that TFP is an heretical sect because, in fact, although they do not say or write it, TFP lives and behaves in accord with a principle which fundamentally undermines the truth of Christianity, that is, of the Catholic Church.

In fact, it is de fide that Jesus Christ founded His Church------destined to maintain on earth the true worship of God and to lead souls toward eternal salvation---as an unequal society, composed of two classes: one which governs, teaches and sanctifies, composed of members of the clergy, and the other---the faithful---who receive the teaching, are governed and sanctified. This is a de fide dogma.

St. Pius X wrote that the Church is, in its very nature, an unequal society, meaning that it comprises two orders of persons: shepherds and flocks, those who belong to the various ranks of the Hierarachy and the faithful multitude. These two orders are so completely distinct that the Hierarchy alone has the right and authority to guide and govern the members to the Church's ends, while the duty of the faithful is that of allowing themselves to be governed and to obediently follow the way given by the governing class (The Encyclical, "Vehementer", February 11, 1906) [7].

And the entire history of the Church, as can be seen in the New Testament, attests to this truth as a fundamental dogma of the Church's constitution. It was to the Apostles only that Jesus said: “Go and teach all nations”. Too, the Acts of the Apostles show us the life of the Church in the times following Jesus Christ. Because of this, it is an heretical subversion to habitually follow a lay person, ---therefore, not a member of the Hierarchy--- as the spokesman of orthodoxy. Thus, they do not look to what the Church says, what the Bishops say, rather what this or that one says.... Nor does it end there: this attitude------even if not openly avowed---actually positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a subtle but real mistrust of the hierarchy and of the clergy in general.

There is a visceral anticlericalism in TFP: everything that comes from the clergy is prejudicially received. Basically, it holds that all priests are ignorant, not very zealous or interesting, and have other such qualities. Well, then, keeping in mind the divine Constitution of the Church which was instituted by Jesus Christ, TFP's habitual anti-clericalism, latent, makes it an heretical sect, and therefore, as I have said, is animated by a principle contrary to the dogma established by Jesus Christ in the constitution of His Church.
Nevertheless, TFP had a healthy beginning. There was a certain evolution of the apostolate carried out by the bi-weekly newspaper of the Marian Congregation of St. Cecelia, titled, O Legionario. As a serious and well intentioned movement, it sought to strengthen the intellectual and religious formation of the members of that Congregation and, consequently, of the bi-weekly’s readers. It was influential throughout Brazil. That was the era of [its] obedience to Monsignors Duarte and Leme. I accompanied and approved its apostolate, also when it began to stray into an anticlerical spirit, which began by its consolidating its position and then reversing it by putting the clergy in tow behind a charismatic layman, with his monopoly on orthodoxy. Perhaps I gave it support beyond a licit point. I retracted it only when it became clear to me that my warnings were not being taken into consideration. They had become useless.

It is just to observe that the straying of certain members of the hierarchy, ....explains the “TFPistas'" scandal, but it doesn't justify the positions they came to take. Even less so, those of their leader, Plinio.

At this time, as I said at the beginning of this letter, the remedy is prayer. First, because without prayer nothing is obtained: “Ask,“ Our Lord says, “and you shall receive.” It is necessary to pray, because charismatic fervor produces a certain fanaticism: individuals become incapable of seeing objective reality, of perceiving even fundamental errors, because of this inversion of following a lay person instead of the legitimate Shepherds of the Holy Church. So much moreso when, as I have observed, members of the Hierarchy unfortunately and frequently utter words and take positions which any Catholic can see are dissonant from doctrine and from the guidance of the Church of the ages.....

I ask Our Lord that he grant you, and your entire family, a holy and happy Christmas and many years filled with God's grace.
I ask that you pray for me, Servant in Christ-Jesus,
Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop Emeritus of Campos
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 03, 2019, 03:36:14 PM
Cera,

The TFP and followers of De Oliveira aren't the first to have the problems you describe - and they won't be the last. We are prone to error due to original sin and pride. I think that the TFP want to do the right thing, but they have been taken down the wrong path. What can we do but try to be patient and listen? 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 03, 2019, 04:33:00 PM
I do pray for the cult members of TFP/ TIA. In addition to prayer, it is also important to help others be aware of how dangerous they are.

In addition to the fact that TFP is a “heretical sect,” which only pretends to be Catholic while undermining the Church, (according to Bishop Mayer in the article posted above) we also know that:

quote:
TFP has also faced charges of cнιℓd тrαffιcking by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”

Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause. According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church . . .

This is from Fidelity magazine in its May 1989 issue cited here:
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 03, 2019, 08:57:51 PM
I do pray for the cult members of TFP/ TIA. In addition to prayer, it is also important to help others be aware of how dangerous they are.

In addition to the fact that TFP is a “heretical sect,” which only pretends to be Catholic while undermining the Church, (according to Bishop Mayer in the article posted above) we also know that:

quote:
TFP has also faced charges of cнιℓd тrαffιcking by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”

Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause. According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church . . .

This is from Fidelity magazine in its May 1989 issue cited here:
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name

Cera,

cнιℓd тrαffιcking is very serious of course, and if they have really tried to obtain legal guardianship over minors, that's very serious also. There isn't anything remotely Catholic about that type of thing. It seems that the supposed fight against evil is a justification for things that are just plain wrong and illegal.

I'm still learning about TFP and Plineo. One thing I came across is a connection between TFP and CESNUR. Evidently, the president of CESNUR was once a TFP member. He may still be. He's also a freemason and the president of the vampire society in Italy. I did a lot of research on CESNUR years ago, when I realized that Damian Thompson, who writes for the Catholic Herald in the UK, is (or was) a board member of CESNUR. CESNUR is affiliated with the London School of Economics, and the group hosts a lot of conferences there. They promote Gnosticism, new age cults and even Satanism. They never met a cult that they didn't like. They are bad news. But maybe they don't have anything to do with TFP these days.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 04, 2019, 01:31:00 AM
I was wondering what is CESNUR: https://www.cesnur.org/ (https://www.cesnur.org/)
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 04, 2019, 03:35:41 PM
Cera,

cнιℓd тrαffιcking is very serious of course, and if they have really tried to obtain legal guardianship over minors, that's very serious also. There isn't anything remotely Catholic about that type of thing. It seems that the supposed fight against evil is a justification for things that are just plain wrong and illegal.

I'm still learning about TFP and Plineo. One thing I came across is a connection between TFP and CESNUR. Evidently, the president of CESNUR was once a TFP member. He may still be. He's also a freemason and the president of the vampire society in Italy. I did a lot of research on CESNUR years ago, when I realized that Damian Thompson, who writes for the Catholic Herald in the UK, is (or was) a board member of CESNUR. CESNUR is affiliated with the London School of Economics, and the group hosts a lot of conferences there. They promote Gnosticism, new age cults and even Satanism. They never met a cult that they didn't like. They are bad news. But maybe they don't have anything to do with TFP these days.
Wow. Meg, you are a super researcher. I suspected a Freemasonic connection and have found interesting leads but not anything docuмented. (i.e. Plinio's maternal uncle was the head of the Grand Orient Lodge in Brazil.) I have seen the CESNUR website and it's quite extensive. Thank you so much for the lead; I will follow this up.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 04, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
I was wondering what is CESNUR: https://www.cesnur.org/ (https://www.cesnur.org/)
The group supports cults, in that it opposes those who try to get family members out of cults.


CESNUR describes itself as "an international network of associations of scholars working in the field of new religious movements." It has gained a reputation for being mostly uncritical and, in fact, supportive of movements considered to be cults (http://www.cultfaq.org) by secular anticult (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a54.html)- and/or Christian countercult (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c142.html) professionals.
Indeed, co-founded by - among others - Massimo Introvigne (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/i00.html#introvigne) (Managing Director), J. Gordon Melton (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/m06.html), and Eileen Barker (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b28.html), CESNUR is seen by many as an organization of cult apologists (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c11.html). At the very least, it has an anti-anticult (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09.html#defapol) stance - meaning that it opposes the doctrines, methods and goals of anti-cult (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c10.html#anticult) and counter-cult (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c142.html) organizations. Some of CESNUR's principals have testified in court on behalf of cults, presented papers supportive of such movements, and have even accepted payments or other benefits from these groups.http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c10.html
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 04, 2019, 03:51:15 PM
This website is the one I was thinking of. It is about Censur, and is written by a former member of the Italian branch of TFP. He realized it is a cult, escaped and now has researched the tentacles of this group of cult organizations. His background is here:
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm

He says:
[size=+0]Massimo Introvigne is a leader of the radical right-wing "counter-revolutionary" movement called Alleanza Cattolica (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb09.htm) - the Italian "sister" of the Brazilian cult called  Tradition, Family and Property   (TFP) (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb10.htm). However, what is most important is that  the material we published showed how CESNUR's "research" is carried out in such a way as to delierately promote the policies and ideological goals of this movement. . .[/size]

[size=+0][size=+0]Massimo Introvigne first replied by accusing us of being "agents of the Belgian Parliament", then by launching an unbelievable campaign on Usenet  Newsgroups involving insults, obscenities and forged posts. Shortly after, he threatened our  provider into closing down our website.[/size][/size]


[size=+0]http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/eng.htm[/size]

[size=+0]Hmm. Calling someone with whom you disagree an "agent." Why does that sound so familiar?[/size]
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 04, 2019, 04:19:13 PM
This website is the one I was thinking of. It is about Censur, and is written by a former member of the Italian branch of TFP. 
Cera, you missed the bit in which Miguel Martinez relates that he was a faithful and active follower of Madame Blavatsky.  Hmmm.....
Doesn't mean I agree with or follow CESNUR. Just curious when I see an unexplained acronym and thought I'd share with others who might be curious.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 04, 2019, 05:46:25 PM
Cera, you missed the bit in which Miguel Martinez relates that he was a faithful and active follower of Madame Blavatsky.  Hmmm.....
Doesn't mean I agree with or follow CESNUR. Just curious when I see an unexplained acronym and thought I'd share with others who might be curious.

The guy who has the Kelebekler website is not Catholic. That is a good thing to point out. Still, he has some useful information. Though we can see just from looking at CESNUR that there's something very wrong. Especially if you read the "papers" that CESNUR promotes from a great variety of so-called spiritual sources at their conferences.

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 04, 2019, 05:56:28 PM
This website is the one I was thinking of. It is about Censur, and is written by a former member of the Italian branch of TFP. He realized it is a cult, escaped and now has researched the tentacles of this group of cult organizations. His background is here:
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm

He says:
[size=+0]Massimo Introvigne is a leader of the radical right-wing "counter-revolutionary" movement called Alleanza Cattolica (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb09.htm) - the Italian "sister" of the Brazilian cult called  Tradition, Family and Property   (TFP) (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb10.htm). However, what is most important is that  the material we published showed how CESNUR's "research" is carried out in such a way as to delierately promote the policies and ideological goals of this movement. . .[/size]

[size=+0][size=+0]Massimo Introvigne first replied by accusing us of being "agents of the Belgian Parliament", then by launching an unbelievable campaign on Usenet  Newsgroups involving insults, obscenities and forged posts. Shortly after, he threatened our  provider into closing down our website.[/size][/size]


[size=+0]http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/eng.htm[/size]

[size=+0]Hmm. Calling someone with whom you disagree an "agent." Why does that sound so familiar?[/size]

It would seem that Introvigne is still involved with Alleanza Cattolica (the Brazillian TFP). It's been awhile since I looked into it. When I was researching CESNUR years ago, I was concerned because there was a supposed traditional Catholic writer who was affiliated with CESNUR.  I wasn't so interested in TFP then. 

Introvigne has the reputation of going after and suing internet sites that reveal his background - he will accuse them of slander. It's good to be a bit careful there. Yes, the term "agent" is an odd thing to say. It's not a term that Catholics tend to use. But then I don't consider Introvigne to be Catholic, even though he passes himself off as one.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 04, 2019, 06:54:07 PM
Cera, you missed the bit in which Miguel Martinez relates that he was a faithful and active follower of Madame Blavatsky.  Hmmm.....
Doesn't mean I agree with or follow CESNUR. Just curious when I see an unexplained acronym and thought I'd share with others who might be curious.
Thank you Nadir. I did not see his reference to her. Since you didn't provide a link, I looked and found this:
He says:
"I do not claim to have the right label or the solution to the general problem of mankind. From the grandiose universal systems of  Madame Blavatsky, I have learned to take an interest almost exclusively in real human beings. There is however one important lesson to be learned: every cult, implicitly or explicitly, believes its followers are somehow 'special'. "

"Taking an interest" is not the same as being a "faithful and active follower." For example, I take an interest in TFP, TIA, ANF and Heralds of the Gospel, but I am most certainly not a follower.

Do you have a source for your quote?

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 04, 2019, 07:03:09 PM
It would seem that Introvigne is still involved with Alleanza Cattolica (the Brazillian TFP). It's been awhile since I looked into it. When I was researching CESNUR years ago, I was concerned because there was a supposed traditional Catholic writer who was affiliated with CESNUR.  I wasn't so interested in TFP then.

Introvigne has the reputation of going after and suing internet sites that reveal his background - he will accuse them of slander. It's good to be a bit careful there. Yes, the term "agent" is an odd thing to say. It's not a term that Catholics tend to use. But then I don't consider Introvigne to be Catholic, even though he passes himself off as one.
Hi Meg,
The reason I laughed when I read TFP's Introvigne using the word "agent" is that on another thread here, Plinio was attacking a woman involved with the shrine at Quito, Ecuador and repeatedly called her an "agent." Just interesting to see how the various branches of TFP/TIA use the same m.o. of name-calling, calumny, slander and ad hominem attacks.

Introvigne is not the only one passing himself off as Catholic. Someone who repeatedly attacks traditional priests, a Bishop, a Cardinal and a Saint; who is anti-clerical and who still worships Plinio even though Plinio has been outed as a heretic by Bishop Mayer is about as Catholic as the Marranos (Atila.)
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 04, 2019, 08:54:09 PM
Thank you Nadir. I did not see his reference to her. Since you didn't provide a link, I looked and found this:
He says:
"I do not claim to have the right label or the solution to the general problem of mankind. From the grandiose universal systems of  Madame Blavatsky, I have learned to take an interest almost exclusively in real human beings. There is however one important lesson to be learned: every cult, implicitly or explicitly, believes its followers are somehow 'special'. "

"Taking an interest" is not the same as being a "faithful and active follower." For example, I take an interest in TFP, TIA, ANF and Heralds of the Gospel, but I am most certainly not a follower.

Do you have a source for your quote?

I do. It is the one you yourself gave: http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm) and is says nothing about his having belonged to TFP but it does plainly state his previous connection and faithful active following of Madame Blavatsky.
 
Just how much trust can you put in such a person,  who is certainly not Catholic? and totally unconverted? Do you believe he has freed himself totally from the clutches of such a guide?

He went on to say:

At twenty, I joined an organization called New Acropolis, active in about fifty countries, which had the goal of providing practical expression to the dream of the Russian medium, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, the creator of an extraordinarily complex worldview. Quackery, of course, though of the more exciting kind. Devoting myself entirely to this group, I first directed its Italian language magazine; then I established branches in Syracuse, Piacenza and Milan. During these years I reached the top of a very complex (and why not, basically ridiculous) hierarchy. Though the expression is quite loaded, it would be right to call New Acropolis a cult because of its stultifying effect on the intellect of the members and the way it involved them totally.
  
I was the first "Italian" to be chosen to establish a branch in another country. Since I was also the only member, I suppose it was no great honour to be the "National Commander of the International Organization New Acropolis Egypt"; however, the Nile Valley - in the rhetoric of the cult - was the "sacred land of Khem". During my stay in Egypt, I had an excellent opportunity to meditate on the arrogance, the implicit and explicit racism, the pompousness and the  oppressive nature of the organization I was giving my life to. At the same time, I had a shocking view of the pathological approach that the West has towards the Arabic world. Some people learn about racism, colonialism and imperialism in boring seminars by Left wing intellectuals. I saw it in daily life.
This is why I decided to break free, finding myself at age thirty-three without a home, a job or money. In opting for freedom, I had no support from outside, either psychological or material. But this is exactly why I can say that this was the first time my choice was really mine. And what a wonderful thing freedom one has had to fight for is!

Luckily I managed to find a job and above all to register at the university, where I got a degree in Oriental languages, choosing Arabic of course. I currently work on my own as a translator and freelance foreign trade consultant

A couple of years after leaving New Acropolis  - entirely at my own expense and on my own initiative - I got in touch with the press to warn others who might have been in my own situation. The experience was not particulary positive: the press tends to dramatize in an extreme fashion, while ignoring really important issues. For this reason, I refer anybody who is interested in the issue only and exclusively to my website page on New Acropolis. (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/liv-gb.htm)

I devoted the next years to an attempt to turn my experience into something positive for myself and others. My ideas develop constantly, and it would not be very important to mention them here; however others will attribute me ideas unless I make them clear myself - people have already imaginatively accused me of being an agent paid by the Belgian parliament (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/mig2.htm) and an actor in a plot by "lunatic fringe secular humanists", Communists, Fascists and Muslims. (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/terror/indexgb.htm)  
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 05, 2019, 01:00:14 PM
Hi Meg,
The reason I laughed when I read TFP's Introvigne using the word "agent" is that on another thread here, Plinio was attacking a woman involved with the shrine at Quito, Ecuador and repeatedly called her an "agent." Just interesting to see how the various branches of TFP/TIA use the same m.o. of name-calling, calumny, slander and ad hominem attacks.

Introvigne is not the only one passing himself off as Catholic. Someone who repeatedly attacks traditional priests, a Bishop, a Cardinal and a Saint; who is anti-clerical and who still worships Plinio even though Plinio has been outed as a heretic by Bishop Mayer is about as Catholic as the Marranos (Atila.)

I went to the TIA website and used its search function to look up how often Atila uses the term "agent" or "agents" in his articles, and a whopping 277 articles came up. I only read a few of them. But yes, the term "agent" seems a prominent term for followers of Plinio to use. 

Do you happen to know if Plinio also made frequent use of the word?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 05, 2019, 03:33:00 PM
I do. It is the one you yourself gave: http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/miggb.htm) and is says nothing about his having belonged to TFP but it does plainly state his previous connection and faithful active following of Madame Blavatsky.
  
Just how much trust can you put in such a person,  who is certainly not Catholic? and totally unconverted? Do you believe he has freed himself totally from the clutches of such a guide?

He went on to say:

At twenty, I joined an organization called New Acropolis, active in about fifty countries, which had the goal of providing practical expression to the dream of the Russian medium, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, the creator of an extraordinarily complex worldview. Quackery, of course, though of the more exciting kind. Devoting myself entirely to this group, I first directed its Italian language magazine; then I established branches in Syracuse, Piacenza and Milan. During these years I reached the top of a very complex (and why not, basically ridiculous) hierarchy. Though the expression is quite loaded, it would be right to call New Acropolis a cult because of its stultifying effect on the intellect of the members and the way it involved them totally.
  
I was the first "Italian" to be chosen to establish a branch in another country. Since I was also the only member, I suppose it was no great honour to be the "National Commander of the International Organization New Acropolis Egypt"; however, the Nile Valley - in the rhetoric of the cult - was the "sacred land of Khem". During my stay in Egypt, I had an excellent opportunity to meditate on the arrogance, the implicit and explicit racism, the pompousness and the  oppressive nature of the organization I was giving my life to. At the same time, I had a shocking view of the pathological approach that the West has towards the Arabic world. Some people learn about racism, colonialism and imperialism in boring seminars by Left wing intellectuals. I saw it in daily life.
This is why I decided to break free, finding myself at age thirty-three without a home, a job or money. In opting for freedom, I had no support from outside, either psychological or material. But this is exactly why I can say that this was the first time my choice was really mine. And what a wonderful thing freedom one has had to fight for is!

Luckily I managed to find a job and above all to register at the university, where I got a degree in Oriental languages, choosing Arabic of course. I currently work on my own as a translator and freelance foreign trade consultant

A couple of years after leaving New Acropolis  - entirely at my own expense and on my own initiative - I got in touch with the press to warn others who might have been in my own situation. The experience was not particulary positive: the press tends to dramatize in an extreme fashion, while ignoring really important issues. For this reason, I refer anybody who is interested in the issue only and exclusively to my website page on New Acropolis. (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/liv-gb.htm)

I devoted the next years to an attempt to turn my experience into something positive for myself and others. My ideas develop constantly, and it would not be very important to mention them here; however others will attribute me ideas unless I make them clear myself - people have already imaginatively accused me of being an agent paid by the Belgian parliament (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/mig2.htm) and an actor in a plot by "lunatic fringe secular humanists", Communists, Fascists and Muslims. (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/terror/indexgb.htm)  
He was a member of the Italian branch of the TFP. Did you not see that? It was in the link cited.
At any rate, he jumped from cult group to cult group, eventually ending up in Alleanza Cattolica, the Italian branch of TFP. He escaped from their clutches, as have so many before him and after him.
He is an ex-cult member of the Italian TFP.
He is trying to help others:
1) get out of a cult,
2) not get involved in a cult.
He exposed the Freemason and occult connections of Alleanza Cattolica, the Italian branch of TFP.
Out of the cult, he is now opposed to cults, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and the occult.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 08, 2019, 02:45:28 PM
Wow. Meg, you are a super researcher. I suspected a Freemasonic connection and have found interesting leads but not anything docuмented. (i.e. Plinio's maternal uncle was the head of the Grand Orient Lodge in Brazil.) I have seen the CESNUR website and it's quite extensive. Thank you so much for the lead; I will follow this up.
In this post, Cera, you imply Prof. Plinio was involved or sympathetic to Masonry. 
Actually, early in his career, while he was involved in the Brazilian politics, he received an offer to become a Mason, and he steadfastly refused. If I understand correctly, he lost the next election because of it.
I don't doubt that Prof. Plinio had bad relatives, like the uncle you mention. But he also had very good relatives, not the least of which being his (truly saintly) mother, Dona Lucilia.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 08, 2019, 11:01:46 PM
He was a member of the Italian branch of the TFP. Did you not see that? It
 No, I did not. Would you be so kind as to cut and paste the words?


Quote
At any rate, he jumped from cult group to cult group, eventually ending up in Alleanza Cattolica, the Italian branch of TFP. ...
He is an ex-cult member of the Italian TFP. 
....
He exposed the Freemason and occult connections of Alleanza Cattolica, the Italian branch of TFP.
Cera, you are misinformed about Alleanza Cattolica. May I suggest you do your research on this before making wild claims?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 09, 2019, 04:07:33 PM
Cera, you are misinformed about Alleanza Cattolica. May I suggest you do your research on this before making wild claims?
Anyone who is misinformed about AC, the Italian branch of TFP needs to check out the well-docuмented facts at:
http://www.kelebekler.com
In this book, TFP is exposed as a Plinio- worshiping "heretical sect." The latter is according to Bishop Meyer.
How does this relate to TIA?
When Plino died in 1995, TFP split into three groups:
1.  TFP, who got the name, but not the money,
2.  The bizarre "Heralds of the Gospel" who got the money, but not the name.
3.  Atila, who got neither the money nor the name.
When Rimini's 1996 book exposed TFP as a dangerous cult, Atila decided it was a good time to get out of Brazil. He waited 20 years, from 1997 until after 2017 to manufacture a fairy tale (in which he plays the hero) about why he left.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 10, 2019, 11:12:06 PM
Anyone who is misinformed about AC, the Italian branch of TFP needs to check out the well-docuмented facts at:
http://www.kelebekler.com
In this book, TFP is exposed as a Plinio- worshiping "heretical sect." The latter is according to Bishop Meyer.
How does this relate to TIA?
When Plino died in 1995, TFP split into three groups:
1.  TFP, who got the name, but not the money,
2.  The bizarre "Heralds of the Gospel" who got the money, but not the name.
3.  Atila, who got neither the money nor the name.
When Rimini's 1996 book exposed TFP as a dangerous cult, Atila decided it was a good time to get out of Brazil. He waited 20 years, from 1997 until after 2017 to manufacture a fairy tale (in which he plays the hero) about why he left.
You keep copy-and-pasting the same arguments...
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 11, 2019, 12:03:33 AM
Quote from: Cera on April 05, 2019, 03:33:00 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/atila-and-the-tfp/msg648588/#msg648588)
Quote
He was a member of the Italian branch of the TFP. Did you not see that? It

 No, I did not. Would you be so kind as to cut and paste the words?


Quote
Quote
At any rate, he jumped from cult group to cult group, eventually ending up in Alleanza Cattolica, the Italian branch of TFP. ...
He is an ex-cult member of the Italian TFP. 
....
He exposed the Freemason and occult connections of Alleanza Cattolica, the Italian branch of TFP.

Cera, you are misinformed about Alleanza Cattolica. May I suggest you do your research on this before making wild claims?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 11, 2019, 12:18:14 AM
Anyone who is misinformed about AC, the Italian branch of TFP needs to check out the well-docuмented facts at:
http://www.kelebekler.com

In this book, TFP is exposed as a Plinio- worshiping "heretical sect."

The link you have given has nothing on it. 
Please show the evidence that Alleanza Cattolica is the Italian TFP. And Kelebeker (for what it's worth!) does not say it is. Maybe you can direct me to the relevent link.

What book are talking about?
Now I think I'll go back to the book I'm reading - Alice in Wonderland.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 11, 2019, 12:22:28 PM
I think it's very interesting to see how this thread filled with supposed "exposés" about the "Plinio-adoring cult" TIA appeared after Atila Guimaraes published his article on the SSPX Agent Liboro in Quito.
 
Why divert attention? The practical aim of all of these "exposés" (by Cera and other SSPX followers) is to divert attention from the actual issue at hand. This is equivalent of throwing sand in the opponent's eyes to have time to flee and not be noticed.
 
Let's actually get back to the heart of the matter. SSPX/Vox Catholica/Fr. Purdy have not responded to any of TIA's claims about them. Why don't they just come out and refute them? The more you attack Guimaraes personally, the more it shows that SSPX doesn't have a defense to present. 
 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 11, 2019, 01:24:02 PM
Let's actually get back to the heart of the matter. SSPX/Vox Catholica/Fr. Purdy have not responded to any of TIA's claims about them. Why don't they just come out and refute them? The more you attack Guimaraes personally, the more it shows that SSPX doesn't have a defense to present.
 

Maybe there's been no response because it's just not a big deal to them. What need do any of them have to cause a fuss over the situation?

The disciples of Plinio who are at the shrine in Quito appear to be disgruntled and defensive about the situation of having their duties taken over by others at the shrine. They are the ones having a fit over the situation, as well as some of the Guimaraes/TIA followers. They lack prudence. Though it's possible of course that the disciples of Plinio at the shrine aren't as upset about the turn of events as Guimaraes and his followers.

I wasn't even aware of the situation in Quito until a fan of Guimaraes posted a thread about an SSPX agent in Quito, here on the forum.
I try to not read anything by Guimaraes if I can help it. His writing is rather robotic and stilted, and he sounds like an SJW, except that he's like a conservative SJW instead of a leftist one.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 11, 2019, 07:28:44 PM
Quote from: Cera on April 05, 2019, 03:33:00 PM (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/atila-and-the-tfp/msg648588/#msg648588)
No, I did not. Would you be so kind as to cut and paste the words?


Quote
Cera, you are misinformed about Alleanza Cattolica. May I suggest you do your research on this before making wild claims?
Yelling (as in all caps) does not strengthen your weak position. I provided a link proving that Alleanza Cattolica is the Italian branch of the TFP cult to worship the heretic Plinio. You refuse to read the link, which makes that your problem, not mine.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 11, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
Maybe there's been no response because it's just not a big deal to them. What need do any of them have to cause a fuss over the situation?

The disciples of Plinio who are at the shrine in Quito appear to be disgruntled and defensive about the situation of having their duties taken over by others at the shrine. They are the ones having a fit over the situation, as well as some of the Guimaraes/TIA followers. They lack prudence. Though it's possible of course that the disciples of Plinio at the shrine aren't as upset about the turn of events as Guimaraes and his followers.

I wasn't even aware of the situation in Quito until a fan of Guimaraes posted a thread about an SSPX agent in Quito, here on the forum.
I try to not read anything by Guimaraes if I can help it. His writing is rather robotic and stilted, and he sounds like an SJW, except that he's like a conservative SJW instead of a leftist one.
Scholars characterize the belonging to a sect when a person considers himself always right, without opening his mind to any other argument. Your description that avoids reading anything that doesn't agree with SSPX places you in this category. If you would be open-minded and not a member of a sect, you would consider both sides of the controversy. This is not what you are doing. Guimaraes in the article you attacked entered each one of the arguments of Fr. Purdy, and put him to rest. This is why it seems that you are avoiding facing the issue, resorting to personal labels and offenses.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 11, 2019, 08:14:52 PM
Scholars characterize the belonging to a sect when a person considers himself always right, without opening his mind to any other argument. Your description that avoids reading anything that doesn't agree with SSPX places you in this category. If you would be open-minded and not a member of a sect, you would consider both sides of the controversy. This is not what you are doing. Guimaraes in the article you attacked entered each one of the arguments of Fr. Purdy, and put him to rest. This is why it seems that you are avoiding facing the issue, resorting to personal labels and offenses.

You believe that the SSPX is a sect? Why is that, and for what reasons do you seem to think that they are a sect?

And, BTW, I'm not a member of the SSPX.

I'm not one to rely on the writings of a man who is a follower of a (deceased) cult-leader (Plinio). That's one of the main reasons why he's not reliable. I've already given other reasons why I don't like Guimaraes. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 11, 2019, 08:47:48 PM
Yelling (as in all caps) does not strengthen your weak position. I provided a link proving that Alleanza Cattolica is the Italian branch of the TFP cult to worship the heretic Plinio. You refuse to read the link, which makes that your problem, not mine.
I have never heard of Alleanza Cattolica before. If it is the TFP branch of Italy, I don't see anything about the TFP on their Website.
You believe that the SSPX is a sect? Why is that, and for what reasons do you seem to think that they are a sect?

And, BTW, I'm not a member of the SSPX.

I'm not one to rely on the writings of a man who is a follower of a (deceased) cult-leader (Plinio). That's one of the main reasons why he's not reliable. I've already given other reasons why I don't like Guimaraes.
I propose you define what you mean when you say "cult", and show why that applies to Dr. Plinio. I imagine your definition is so nebulous that anyone could say any charismatic leader is a "cult-leader", and any group of devoted followers is a "cult"...
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 11, 2019, 11:59:03 PM
Cera, I have good news. I checked to confirm whether there is any relationship between Alleanza Cattolica and the TFP. In fact, while Professor Plinio was alive, there was no such relationship, and in fact, there was no formal TFP in Italy, only an office. 

To this day, I believe Alleanza Cattolica is still quite unaffiliated with the TFP. At best, I believe they merely have amiable communication. There are some disagreements, for instance, Alleanza Cattolica promotes a major false right personality, Julius Evola, whom the TFP does not approve of. Please note therefore that the claim Alleanza Cattolica is affiliated with the TFP is quite false.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on April 12, 2019, 04:31:26 AM
Cera, regardless of my yelling in ALL CAPS large bold red, you still have not answered the question I have twice you asked, this because you are unable to give the answer.

But here for your information is a page listed organisations related to TFP: http://tfp-france.org/liens (http://tfp-france.org/liens)
Scroll down to Italie and you will there are two organisations, neither of which is Alleanza Cattolica.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 06:25:49 AM
I have never heard of Alleanza Cattolica before. If it is the TFP branch of Italy, I don't see anything about the TFP on their Website.I propose you define what you mean when you say "cult", and show why that applies to Dr. Plinio. I imagine your definition is so nebulous that anyone could say any charismatic leader is a "cult-leader", and any group of devoted followers is a "cult"...

Surely you have seen all of the information that Cera has posted over the last couple of years here regarding Plinio being a cult leader.

How about what she has recently posted (yesterday, I think) where she described how Guimaraes used to lie prostrate on the ground while confessing to Plinio, and that Plinio would put his foot on Guimaraes neck. That's quite disturbing. This bizarre method of "confessing" isn't Catholic. It's a mixture of Protestantism and fanaticism. Catholics confess sins to priests, not laymen.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 07:32:19 AM
Cera, I have good news. I checked to confirm whether there is any relationship between Alleanza Cattolica and the TFP. In fact, while Professor Plinio was alive, there was no such relationship, and in fact, there was no formal TFP in Italy, only an office.

To this day, I believe Alleanza Cattolica is still quite unaffiliated with the TFP. At best, I believe they merely have amiable communication. There are some disagreements, for instance, Alleanza Cattolica promotes a major false right personality, Julius Evola, whom the TFP does not approve of. Please note therefore that the claim Alleanza Cattolica is affiliated with the TFP is quite false.

I think you're right in that there is no formal relationship between TFP and Alleanza Cattholica. It seems that Oliveira didn't found AC himself. However, it seems that AC is very much influenced by Oliveira. And certainly there must be groups out there that follow the teachings of Oliveira, but aren't affiliated with TFP.

Here's an interview that Introvigne gives, in which he describes how Oliveira has influenced him. Introvigne has written a biography of Oliveira, but of course it's probably in Italian, so I'll not be able to read it even if I could find it on the internet.
Introvigne was deputy chairperson of AC until a couple of years ago. He has now left it, from what the article states.

https://www.oclarim.com.mo/en/2016/06/17/between-mary-magdalene-and-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/

The official publication of Alleanza Catholica is called Christianita. Kelebeckler has published a quote from this publication which says that AC was not founded by Oliveira, but that they are counting on Oliveira's influence and help from Oliveira's "eternal Life," which I take to mean that they receive help from him even after his death, from above. I'll try to post a link to the quote. Here it is:


http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb12.htm
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 12, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Yelling (as in all caps) does not strengthen your weak position. I provided a link proving that Alleanza Cattolica is the Italian branch of the TFP cult to worship the heretic Plinio. You refuse to read the link, which makes that your problem, not mine.


Nadir,

Obviously, Prof Cera is part of Fr. Purdy's Fan Club.

Like Jade Liboro's mission to penetrate the Quito convent, she has a separate mission to defame Dr. Oliveira.

Cera is a PhD at cutting & pasting conspiracy links.
She has demonstrated the ability to "pile it on high & deep", to help create a diversionary smokescreen for Fr. Purdy.

But consider this recent series of providential events at the Shrine:

1. Franciscan sex scandal, linked to the Quito bishop on the very Feast Day of Our Lay of Good Success.
2. SSPX's sudden endorsement and relations with the financially strapped Quito Bishop.
3. SSPX members unable to move the miraculous statue of Our Lady of Good Success.
4. Exposure of Fr. Purdy's agent within the convent, the setting-up of the website, just to announce the name change.
5. A name change pursued by non Spanish speakers and dubiously accepted, by non English speakers.


It seems the issue at hand, is whether Fr. Wegner will back-off of his Quito campaign?

This comes to the crux of the matter, which helps to demonstrate the side-effects of the SSPX's overall apostasy.

It is the loss the virtue of discernment.

If Fr. Wegner has discernment, he will pull his people out of Quito, because of this series of events has proven it is not God's will.

If he continues, surely there will be more scandalous revelations.


Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 12:36:25 PM
I think you're right in that there is no formal relationship between TFP and Alleanza Cattholica. It seems that Oliveira didn't found AC himself. However, it seems that AC is very much influenced by Oliveira. And certainly there must be groups out there that follow the teachings of Oliveira, but aren't affiliated with TFP.

Here's an interview that Introvigne gives, in which he describes how Oliveira has influenced him. Introvigne has written a biography of Oliveira, but of course it's probably in Italian, so I'll not be able to read it even if I could find it on the internet.
Introvigne was deputy chairperson of AC until a couple of years ago. He has now left it, from what the article states.

https://www.oclarim.com.mo/en/2016/06/17/between-mary-magdalene-and-plinio-correa-de-oliveira/

The official publication of Alleanza Catholica is called Christianita. Kelebeckler has published a quote from this publication which says that AC was not founded by Oliveira, but that they are counting on Oliveira's influence and help from Oliveira's "eternal Life," which I take to mean that they receive help from him even after his death, from above. I'll try to post a link to the quote. Here it is:


http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb12.htm
Meg and Cera, all of these Plinio-worshipping/occult claims were disproven by Atila 35 years ago, when he published two books refuting them. Moreover, it is interesting that all of a sudden, you are raising up dust from 35 years ago, precisely when Atila put out his articles exposing the recent dishonest activities of SSPX/Fr. Purdy/Vox Catholica. Again, more sand in the eyes to have time to flee - this shows bad faith on your part.
 
Why all of the diversions? Here is the current issue at hand: Atila showed that Fr. Purdy - the self-proclaimed expert on the best translation of the Spanish devotion to Our Lady of Good Success - does not speak Spanish. Atila also showed that the docuмent put out by the nuns (which curiously has the same flavor of Fr. Purdy's sermons in Quito) made a serious mistake when it declared that the important feast of Feb. 2 is the Presentation (not the Purification). This goes against the tradition of the Church, as he showed through his quotes from Dom Gueranger, considered the best expert on liturgy in recent memory. 
 
As I mentioned before: the more you bring up all this 35-year-old trash, the more it seems like you are trying to cover for Fr. Purdy's lack of scholarship. Why not stop with these diversions? Let Fr. Purdy come forward and clarify all of this for his followers by:
1) Proving that he actually speaks Spanish.
2) Proving that his docuмent does not in fact contradict the tradition of the Church.

Until then, the more you bring up personal attacks against Atila/Plinio, the more you prove to the public that Fr. Purdy has nothing to say because he was caught in two frauds. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
Meg and Cera, all of these Plinio-worshipping/occult claims were disproven by Atila 35 years ago, when he published two books refuting them. Moreover, it is interesting that all of a sudden, you are raising up dust from 35 years ago, precisely when Atila put out his articles exposing the recent dishonest activities of SSPX/Fr. Purdy/Vox Catholica. Again, more sand in the eyes to have time to flee - this shows bad faith on your part.
 
Why all of the diversions? Here is the current issue at hand: Atila showed that Fr. Purdy - the self-proclaimed expert on the best translation of the Spanish devotion to Our Lady of Good Success - does not speak Spanish. Atila also showed that the docuмent put out by the nuns (which curiously has the same flavor of Fr. Purdy's sermons in Quito) made a serious mistake when it declared that the important feast of Feb. 2 is the Presentation (not the Purification). This goes against the tradition of the Church, as he showed through his quotes from Dom Gueranger, considered the best expert on liturgy in recent memory.
 
As I mentioned before: the more you bring up all this 35-year-old trash, the more it seems like you are trying to cover for Fr. Purdy's lack of scholarship. Why not stop with these diversions? Let Fr. Purdy come forward and clarify all of this for his followers by:
1) Proving that he actually speaks Spanish.
2) Proving that his docuмent does not in fact contradict the tradition of the Church.

Until then, the more you bring up personal attacks against Atila/Plinio, the more you prove to the public that Fr. Purdy has nothing to say because he was caught in two frauds.

You are new to this forum, correct? Then why do you claim to know all about what is "suddenly" being brought up regarding Plinio/TIA/TFP/Guimarares? Cera has been posting, on occasion, these issues about the reality of the cult for the last couple of years on this forum. It's not new, and it's not a diversion. You are quite arrogant to make assumptions, given that you've only been here for a short time. 

Plinio was a cult leader, and his followers are blind to that. It's your choice to be blind. I for one am not going to believe anything that Guimaraes says about anything. It's not about Fr. Purdy. It's about the lack of honesty of the Plinio followers.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 12, 2019, 01:12:55 PM
I for one am not going to believe anything that Guimaraes says about anything.
This demonstrates you have bad will. If you aren't willing to even consider you are wrong, you shouldn't participate in this discussion.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 01:16:05 PM
This demonstrates you have bad will. If you aren't willing to even consider you are wrong, you shouldn't participate in this discussion.

I don't believe that I'm wrong to speak out against a cult leader and his followers. You are free to disagree, of course. Controversial subjects are allowed to be discussed here. As such, there are bound to be disagreements.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 01:29:55 PM
Meg, again, more personal attacks. I will skip over this part, since you seem to be using emotions rather than facts. You claim that the "TIA/TFP/Atila/Plinio Cult Issue" is not new, and is not a diversion. Let's take a look at the facts here:

1) According to the stats, this defamatory thread, titled "Atila and the TFP", was created by Cera, March 26, 2019one day after Atila published his article exposing SSPX's agent in Quito (which was published March 25, 2019) 

2) Although the other defamatory thread, titled "Plinio Correa de Oliveira", was started May of 2018, the last post on the thread was made Neil Obstat on November 7, 2018 (see bottom of page 2 on the thread). From then on, there was silence on the thread for five months, until Cera recently "resurrected" the thread April 3, 2019 (see top of page 3 of the thread). Again, this curious "resurrection" ocurred only one week after Atila published his article on the SSPX Agent in Quito. Why after five months of silence did Cera suddenly find it convenient to enter the fray, right after Atila exposed SSPX's fraudulent activities? More suspicion.

3) Cera and Mega have continued to make other personal attacks against TIA/Atila/Plinio recently on other threads. These other threads were created to discuss TIA's recent exposés on SSPX's fraudulent activities, which confirms suspicion that these personal attacks from Cera and other SSPX followers are mere diversions created to deviate attention from SSPX's frauds. 

Lastly - sure, you can say I am "new" here, since I signed up on this site last Christmas, which was close to four months ago. However, I have been following this site for a while, at least since November of last year to my knowledge. But regardless of all this, again - what does my being "new" on this site have anything to do with the issue at hand? Again, you seem to be an expert at diversions.

Please, stop with the sand attacks. Why don't you go tell Fr. Purdy to clear up the confusion here? Again, go ask him to come forward and clarify all of this for his followers by:
1) Proving that he actually speaks Spanish.
2) Proving that his docuмent does not in fact contradict the tradition of the Church.

You keep copying and pasting all the same arguments, despite the fact that we are showing that there is evidence against them. The more you keep insisting on the "cult" nonsense, the more it shows that there is no defense for Fr. Purdy, who seems to prefer to cower in silence and instead sends two ladies to cover for him. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 01:35:02 PM
Meg, again, more personal attacks. I will skip over this part, since you seem to be using emotions rather than facts. You claim that the "TIA/TFP/Atila/Plinio Cult Issue" is not new, and is not a diversion. Let's take a look at the facts here:

1) According to the stats, this defamatory thread, titled "Atila and the TFP", was created by Cera, March 26, 2019 - one day after Atila published his article exposing SSPX's agent in Quito (which was published March 25, 2019)

2) Although the other defamatory thread, titled "Plinio Correa de Oliveira", was started May of 2018, the last post on the thread was made Neil Obstat on November 7, 2018 (see bottom of page 2 on the thread). From then on, there was silence on the thread for five months, until Cera recently "resurrected" the thread April 3, 2019 (see top of page 3 of the thread). Again, this curious "resurrection" ocurred only one week after Atila published his article on the SSPX Agent in Quito. Why after five months of silence did Cera suddenly find it convenient to enter the fray, right after Atila exposed SSPX's fraudulent activities? More suspicion.

3) Cera and Mega have continued to make other personal attacks against TIA/Atila/Plinio recently on other threads. These other threads were created to discuss TIA's recent exposés on SSPX's fraudulent activities, which confirms suspicion that these personal attacks from Cera and other SSPX followers are mere diversions created to deviate attention from SSPX's frauds.

Lastly - sure, you can say I am "new" here, since I signed up on this site last Christmas, which was close to four months ago. However, I have been following this site for a while, at least since November of last year to my knowledge. But regardless of all this, again - what does my being "new" on this site have anything to do with the issue at hand? Again, you seem to be an expert at diversions.

Please, stop with the sand attacks. Why don't you go tell Fr. Purdy to clear up the confusion here? Again, go ask him to come forward and clarify all of this for his followers by:
1) Proving that he actually speaks Spanish.
2) Proving that his docuмent does not in fact contradict the tradition of the Church.

You keep copying and pasting all the same arguments, despite the fact that we are showing that there is evidence against them. The more you keep insisting on the "cult" nonsense, the more it shows that there is no defense for Fr. Purdy, who seems to prefer to cower in silence and instead sends two ladies to cover for him.

If you feel that what I have written is defamatory, that's your choice. I truly believe that Plinio was a cult leader. Therefore, I do not want to remain silent. I can hardly agree that speaking the truth is in any way defamatory. Perhaps you believe that Guimaraes is somehow a prophet or enlightened individual? I can't really account for such a defense of him by his fans.

We can keep going round and round, basically covering the same thing over and over, if that's what you want. I have a lot of free time these days. Have at it.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 01:44:15 PM
Meg, keep distracting from the actual issue here, you just keep proving me right. I just showed you that, contrary to what you are claiming, these personal attacks against Atila/TIA are new, they were created right after Atila published his exposés showing SSPX is leading fraudulent activities, and you and Cera are responsible for these recent diversions. Interesting that you only felt like "speaking the truth" about Atila/TIA shortly after these publications against SSPX were made. This can hardly considered noble or honest, contrary to the mirage you trying to portray here.

It just proves that Fr. Purdy prefers to hide under the skirts of two women instead of face the issue publicly like a man.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 01:46:07 PM
Meg, keep distracting from the actual issue here, you just keep proving me right. I just showed you that, contrary to what you are claiming, these personal attacks against Atila/TIA are new, they were created right after Atila published his exposés showing SSPX is leading fraudulent activities, and you and Cera are responsible for these recent diversions. Interesting that you only felt like "speaking the truth" about Atila/TIA shortly after these publications against SSPX were made. This can hardly considered noble or honest, contrary to the mirage you trying to portray here.

It just proves that Fr. Purdy prefers to hide under the skirts of two women instead of face the issue publicly like a man.

As I have said, it's not about Fr. Purdy.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 01:51:07 PM
Yes it is Meg. You are constantly distracting from the issue here. Please explain to me why it is that:
1) You seem to have made it your personal mission to spew out any and all trash on Atila/TIA only recently, right after Atila posts an article showing the dishonesty of SSPX (and more recently of Fr. Purdy).
2) If you are not affiliated with SSPX, why do you conveniently make it your aim to divert any and all attention away from SSPX's dishonesty?

If you respond with a diversion again, you prove my two points right. Answer my two questions before continuing more of your trash talk.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 01:53:52 PM
Yes it is Meg. You are constantly distracting from the issue here. Please explain to me why it is that:
1) You seem to have made it your personal mission to spew out any and all trash on Atila/TIA only recently, right after Atila posts an article showing the dishonesty of SSPX (and more recently of Fr. Purdy).
2) If you are not affiliated with SSPX, why do you conveniently make it your aim to divert any and all attention away from SSPX's dishonesty?

If you respond with a diversion again, you prove my two points right. Answer my two questions before continuing more of your trash talk.

Calm yourself. This is just a forum.

Your questions have already been answered. I won't be responding to you again today.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Last Tradhican on April 12, 2019, 01:54:47 PM
Yes it is Meg. You are constantly distracting from the issue here. 
Don't worry about it, this happens all of the time here of CI with these types, just post your material to teach again and do not respond to them. God permits pests like these so we do our work. 

It's just two women making all of these posts, and they are just giving you easy balls to hit over the fence.  Besides, no one reads their garbage.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 12, 2019, 01:57:31 PM
I don't believe that I'm wrong to speak out against a cult leader and his followers. You are free to disagree, of course. Controversial subjects are allowed to be discussed here. As such, there are bound to be disagreements.
You are making personal attacks -- in logic we call this an "ad hominem" -- rather than actually addressing my arguments.
Allow me to remind you what the two arguments are:
1) Fr. Purdy does not speak Spanish, so he cannot present himself as an authority on how Our Lady's title should be translated into English.
2) Fr. Purdy contradicts Dom Gueranger: while Dom Gueranger says February 2 is concerned with the Purification of Our Lady, Fr. Purdy says February 2 is concerned with the Presentation of Our Lord.

These are not personal attacks on Fr. Purdy. I have no doubt, if it could be shown that Fr. Purdy is actually a Spanish speaker, Mr. Atila would be the first to apologize and recant. But the silence on these two important questions is frankly deafening. I believe you can sympathize with my plight here.

Thus, since you are much more knowledgeable on this matter than it originally seemed, I invite you to answer these two arguments and whether they are right or wrong.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 01:58:32 PM
Don't worry about it, this happens all of the time here of CI with these types, just post your material to teach again and do not respond to them. God permits pests like these so we do our work.


What "work" would that be, exactly? And for whom?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 02:19:03 PM
Calm yourself. This is just a forum.

Your questions have already been answered. I won't be responding to you again today.
My questions have not been answered Meg. Your diversion/hit and run tactics are starting to become really obvious, and it shows not only your bad faith, but your extreme dishonesty. Again, I pose my questions for all CI readers to see:
1) Why have you and Cera been posting all of this anti-TIA/Atila trash only recently (right after TIA exposes SSPX) if you have not been sent here to cover for SSPX/Fr. Purdy and defame Atila/TIA? 
2) If you are such a noble defender of the "truth", why is it that you haven't come up with all this anti-TIA trash until now? 
3) Why do you refuse to address the very serious issues by diverting attention with all sorts of personal attacks? 
4) Why do you keep trying to defend Fr. Purdy by excusing him from the scene, saying that "this is not about Fr. Purdy"? 
If you're too afraid to answer these questions, call Fr. Purdy and ask him to clarify all this publicly. It's really simple.
And it's interesting you just responded to Last Tradhican - didn't you just say you wouldn't be responding today? Didn't you also say "that you have a lot of free time these days" and that you would very happily "keep going round and round"? 
You are only proving that you and your cohorts (including SSPX/Fr. Purdy) are dishonest, and use diversion/hit-and-run tactics to try to escape the issue.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 02:20:56 PM
My questions have not been answered Meg. Your diversion/hit and run tactics are starting to become really obvious, and it shows not only your bad faith, but your extreme dishonesty. Again, I pose my questions for all CI readers to see:
1) Why have you and Cera been posting all of this anti-TIA/Atila trash only recently (right after TIA exposes SSPX) if you have not been sent here to cover for SSPX/Fr. Purdy and defame Atila/TIA?
2) If you are such a noble defender of the "truth", why is it that you haven't come up with all this anti-TIA trash until now?
3) Why do you refuse to address the very serious issues by diverting attention with all sorts of personal attacks?
4) Why do you keep trying to defend Fr. Purdy by excusing him from the scene, saying that "this is not about Fr. Purdy"?
If you're too afraid to answer these questions, call Fr. Purdy and ask him to clarify all this publicly. It's really simple.
And it's interesting you just responded to Last Tradhican - didn't you just say you wouldn't be responding today? Didn't you also say "that you have a lot of free time these days" and that you would very happily "keep going round and round"?
You are only proving that you and your cohorts (including SSPX/Fr. Purdy) are dishonest, and use diversion/hit-and-run tactics to try to escape the issue.
:laugh1:
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 02:33:47 PM
:laugh1:
Meg, you're running out of ammo. Is that all you have - a smiley face? You are only proving my point right, and that is that you have been sent by SSPX/Fr. Purdy. Just call him and ask him to defend himself like a man, instead of sending two ladies to cover for his obvious frauds.
Bullying, personal insults, intimidation, diversion, hit-and-run moves - all of these are tactics used by the SSPX. You prove yourself to be a member of the SSPX when you resort to these tactics, rather than using reason and logic like a civil Catholic person.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Meg on April 12, 2019, 02:35:41 PM
Meg, you're running out of ammo. Is that all you have - a smiley face? You are only proving my point right, and that is that you have been sent by SSPX/Fr. Purdy. Just call him and ask him to defend himself like a man, instead of sending two ladies to cover for his obvious frauds.
Bullying, personal insults, intimidation, diversion, hit-and-run moves - all of these are tactics used by the SSPX. You prove yourself to be a member of the SSPX when you resort to these tactics, rather than using reason and logic like a civil Catholic person.

Actually, I would have preferred to use a 'rolling eyes' emoticon, but sadly, they aren't available to use here anymore.

*sigh*
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 02:41:36 PM
Actually, I would have preferred to use a 'rolling eyes' emoticon, but sadly, they aren't available to use anymore here.
Nice try, but sarcasm is not a valid argument. You are simply showing how intellectually deficient you are when you resort to this kind of childish game.
I repeat: Bullying, personal insults, intimidation, diversion, hit-and-run moves - all of these are tactics used by the SSPX. You prove yourself to be a member of the SSPX when you resort to these tactics, rather than using reason and logic like a civil Catholic person.
If you don't have anything more to say, then just call Fr. Purdy, really simple. Let him defend himself. All you are doing is further ruining what little is left of Fr. Purdy's/SSPX's prestige and making an absolute fool of yourself.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on April 12, 2019, 07:20:05 PM

Wow!  
Unable to carry-on a debate when hit with straight questions, 
Meg Does a "bs over-dose" on the forum :facepalm:
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on April 12, 2019, 08:38:04 PM
I am reposting this since it was lost in the general cascade of other posts. I offer it once more for Meg and Cera's consideration, as well as anyone else who would like to contribute to this polemic. I believe moving back to these questions will put the discussion back-on-track. So, I ask them to give their opinions to these two theses:

[Two arguments]:
1) Fr. Purdy does not speak Spanish, so he cannot present himself as an authority on how Our Lady's title should be translated into English.
2) Fr. Purdy contradicts Dom Gueranger: while Dom Gueranger says February 2 is concerned with the Purification of Our Lady, Fr. Purdy says February 2 is concerned with the Presentation of Our Lord. 
I eagerly await their responses.  :-\
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 08:45:39 PM
I am reposting this since it was lost in the general cascade of other posts. I offer it once more for Meg and Cera's consideration, as well as anyone else who would like to contribute to this polemic. I believe moving back to these questions will put the discussion back-on-track. So, I ask them to give their opinions to these two theses:
I eagerly await their responses.  :-\
:applause: :applause: :applause:
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 18, 2019, 03:08:07 PM
It just proves that Fr. Purdy prefers to hide under the skirts of two women instead of face the issue publicly like a man.
It is typical of a TIA cult follower to attack a good Catholic priest with innuendo. This is the same tactic the anti-clerical Atila often uses.
The truth about TIA is not an attack; the truth is the truth.
Why are you and your alter-ego Atila trying to make this about SSPX?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 18, 2019, 03:10:57 PM
 these personal attacks against Atila/TIA are new, they were created right after Atila published his exposés
Did you not read my response to this old, re-used attack of yours? I posted a Cath Info post from 2007 showing that others were exposing the ugly truth about TFP/TIA way back then.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 18, 2019, 03:14:50 PM
Yes it is Meg. You are constantly distracting from the issue here. Please explain to me why it is that:
1) You seem to have made it your personal mission to spew out any and all trash on Atila/TIA only recently, right after Atila posts an article showing the dishonesty of SSPX (and more recently of Fr. Purdy).
2) If you are not affiliated with SSPX, why do you conveniently make it your aim to divert any and all attention away from SSPX's dishonesty?

If you respond with a diversion again, you prove my two points right. Answer my two questions before continuing more of your trash talk.
You lie. Your pseudo-points have received calm rational responses previously. You just pretend that you have not already been answered in order to spew your hatred against a good priest.
Just for the record, the unfounded opinions of your cult leader Atila are simply his opinions. They are not facts.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on April 18, 2019, 03:25:50 PM

2) Fr. Purdy contradicts Dom Gueranger: while Dom Gueranger says February 2 is concerned with the Purification of Our Lady, Fr. Purdy says February 2 is concerned with the Presentation of Our Lord.

Oh Marcus, Marcus. If you actually listened to what Father Purdy so eloquently explains, you would understand that both names describe the same event celebrated on Feb. 2. In Jєωιѕн tradition, a woman who had given birth could not re-enter society until her ritual purification on the 40th day after the birth of her child.
He explains that Our Lady, having given birth to Jesus miraculously, did not need ritual purification, but she did so to obey God. The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple is the same event as the Purification of Our Lady. It was a foreshadowing of her Immaculate Heart. This is related to when Simeon told her "a sword shall pierce your heart."
If you can overcome your brainwashing, please listen to this beautiful talk on Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purificación.
I continue to pray for you.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 30, 2019, 09:55:10 AM
Oh Marcus, Marcus. If you actually listened to what Father Purdy so eloquently explains, you would understand that both names describe the same event celebrated on Feb. 2. In Jєωιѕн tradition, a woman who had given birth could not re-enter society until her ritual purification on the 40th day after the birth of her child.
He explains that Our Lady, having given birth to Jesus miraculously, did not need ritual purification, but she did so to obey God. The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple is the same event as the Purification of Our Lady. It was a foreshadowing of her Immaculate Heart. This is related to when Simeon told her "a sword shall pierce your heart."
If you can overcome your brainwashing, please listen to this beautiful talk on Maria del Buen Suceso de la Purificación.
I continue to pray for you.
:facepalm: Cera, this a bunch of bla-bla-bla. The Presentation is NOT the same as the Purification, as Dom Gueranger explains. Again, you seem to block out anything that doesn't come from the mouth of SSPX/Fr. Purdy. Where is your rationality? It's evident that you and Meg are part of a cult, since you are not using any reason.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on May 01, 2019, 05:17:17 PM
FEAST OF THE PRESENTATION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST
FEAST OF THE PURIFICATION OF THE VIRGIN
 CANDLEMAS DAY (FEB 2)

The events commemorated today are recorded in Luke 2:22-39.
(http://satucket.com/lectionary/Presentation.jpg)Counting forward from December 25 as Day One, we find that Day Forty is February 2. A Jєωιѕн woman is in semi-seclusion for 40 days after giving birth to a son, and accordingly it is on February 2 that we celebrate the coming of Mary and Joseph with the infant Jesus to the Temple at Jerusalem (1) to offer sacrifice on behalf of Mary to mark the end of her seclusion (see Le 12:1-8), and (2) to ransom or redeem (buy back) Jesus as a first-born male (see Ex 13:11-13; 22:29; Nu 18:15-16; Dt 15:19). As they did so, they were greeted by the aged Simeon. In a Sunday-School pageant, I once saw, the narrator said, "And now Simeon bursts into a spontaneous song of praise, assisted by the Temple Choir." His song, called the Nunc Dimittis, has always had a prominent role in Christian worship. It has often been rendered in verse. I append one example.
Lord God, thou now hast set thy servant free, G-GGAGceddc--
to part in peace according to thy word. eefgGcBAAG--
Mine eyes have seen the Saviour, Christ the Lord ddef--cccfed--
prepared by thee for all the worlds to see; dpdBGceddc--
to shine on nations lost in darkest night, cfgaadggrg--
the glory of thy people, and their light. Gcdedfeddc--
(http://satucket.com/lectionary/Presentation_Fra_Angelico.jpg)(The versification is by Rae E Whitney, found in the Episcopal Hymnal 1982. The melody shown at the right is SONG 1 by Orlando Gibbons (1583-1625). Note that:
We denote two octaves of white keys by CDEFGABcdefgab.
We denote black keys (beginning with c sharp) by pqrst.
We use a dash to continue the previous note for another beat.)

Because an old reading for this festival contains the line (Zephaniah 1:12), "I will search Jerusalem with candles," the day is also known as Candlema
Title: "Candlemas"/Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: AlligatorDicax on May 08, 2019, 03:15:09 PM

Fr. Purdy contradicts Dom Gueranger: while Dom Gueranger says February 2 is concerned with the Purification of Our Lady, Fr. Purdy says February 2 is concerned with the Presentation of Our Lord.

Uh, huh.

So they absolutely must be mutually exclusive?  There's no way that, speaking loosely, both sources could be right?

The relevant article in the original Catholic Encyclopedia: "Candlemas" by (Mr.?) Holweck [*], plainly asserts at its outset:

Quote from: Holweck in original Catholic Encyclopedia

Candlemas
Also called: Purification of the Blessed Virgin (Greek Hypapante),
Feast of the Presentation of Christ in the Temple.
Observed 2 February in the Latin Rite.

Holweck is the author of numerous articles in that edition of the C.E.; he's not an obscure 1-article wonder.  My reading of many C.E. articles in recent years has given me the strong impression that their authors are quite deferential to Dom Gueranger when his opinion as an acknowledged expert dissents or otherwise stands out.

So, ‘Markus’,  how's 'bout citing a specific source, preferably Internet-accessible, for your claim of exclusivity about the significance of the date?

-------
Note *: Frederick Holweck: "Candlemas".  C.E. vol. 3, 1908.  Robert Appleton Co.: New York.  <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03245b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03245b.htm)>.
Title: Re: "Candlemas"/Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on May 09, 2019, 02:36:49 PM
Uh, huh.

So they absolutely must be mutually exclusive?  There's no way that, speaking loosely, both sources could be right?

The relevant article in the original Catholic Encyclopedia: "Candlemas" by (Mr.?) Holweck [*], plainly asserts at its outset:

Holweck is the author of numerous articles in that edition of the C.E.; he's not an obscure 1-article wonder.  My reading of many C.E. articles in recent years has given me the strong impression that their authors are quite deferential to Dom Gueranger when his opinion as an acknowledged expert dissents or otherwise stands out.

So, ‘Markus’,  how's 'bout citing a specific source, preferably Internet-accessible, for your claim of exclusivity about the significance of the date?

-------
Note *: Frederick Holweck: "Candlemas".  C.E. vol. 3, 1908.  Robert Appleton Co.: New York.  <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03245b.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03245b.htm)>.
:applause:
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Croixalist on May 10, 2019, 02:21:17 PM
Like the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart, the two feasts are permanently joined together. You can't mention one without thinking of the other. False dilemma.  
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on May 19, 2019, 08:55:49 PM
Official refutation: https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4 (https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4)
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Incredulous on May 19, 2019, 10:15:00 PM


I see :facepalm:

It means Prof Cera or "Trad Granny" is a slave to Fr. Purdy.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on May 23, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Official refutation: https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4 (https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4)
Having read this purported "refutation" it's clear that it is merely more of the same obfuscation typical of TFP/TIA.
Nowhere is the key point addressed: that Atila laid on the floor in front of Plinio, who put his foot on Atila's neck, and Atila (in a mockery of Louis de Montfort's consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary) swore his allegiance to Plinio, making himself a slave to Plinio and taking a slave name.
Disgusting and more importantly NOT Catholic, once again affirming what Bishop Mayer said of TFP, calling them an anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretic sect.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on May 28, 2019, 12:38:54 PM
Having read this purported "refutation" it's clear that it is merely more of the same obfuscation typical of TFP/TIA.
Nowhere is the key point addressed: that Atila laid on the floor in front of Plinio, who put his foot on Atila's neck, and Atila (in a mockery of Louis de Montfort's consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary) swore his allegiance to Plinio, making himself a slave to Plinio and taking a slave name.
Disgusting and more importantly NOT Catholic, once again affirming what Bishop Mayer said of TFP, calling them an anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretic sect.
Cera, I see that TIA only posted this 200-page pdf on May 18, yet you claim that by May 23 you had already read this pdf. Do you mean to tell us that you read over 200 pages in 5 days? Either you are a fast reader, or you are lying and just didn't bother to read the whole thing. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on May 28, 2019, 09:22:09 PM
You seem unusually silent Cera - cat got your tongue?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on May 28, 2019, 10:43:42 PM
Having read this purported "refutation" it's clear that it is merely more of the same obfuscation typical of TFP/TIA.
Nowhere is the key point addressed: that Atila laid on the floor in front of Plinio, who put his foot on Atila's neck, and Atila (in a mockery of Louis de Montfort's consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary) swore his allegiance to Plinio, making himself a slave to Plinio and taking a slave name.
Disgusting and more importantly NOT Catholic, once again affirming what Bishop Mayer said of TFP, calling them an anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretic sect.
I find it incredibly hard to believe you read the refutation.
If you read it, surely you would have more to say than just repeating what you've already been saying for the last two months. 
Also, there are still two more books in the collection that address the points you are so adamant about. According to TIA, the next will be available shortly. 
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on May 29, 2019, 04:20:12 PM
Let’s see what excuse Cera comes up with this time. As Incredulous pointed out in another thread, the noose is tightening around their necks, the noose that they themselves set up. They cannot go against truth and facts.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Doce Me on May 30, 2019, 01:50:02 AM
I'm new here, and not too knowledgeable about TIA, but I had a couple of comments based on scanning the file from TIA that Markus linked to:

Quote
Official refutation: https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4 (https://traditioninaction.org/Library/texts/A_001_ServCar.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1rRuucbL9eSBU5Sb2qBD8g_aAUI6xUNyaCCahfs7k_G4FCxta3sRrLeT4)
Athough Atila explicitly denies "de facto" slavery to Plinio here, he sure shows extreme adulation:


Quote
...
From all this it was concluded that it could not be truthfully
said that slavery to Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira exists de facto in the TFP.

This is for various reasons:

1. Because any temporal slavery is absolutely unthinkable;

2. Because the disciples who made the vow of obedience viewed
their vow as laymen in the Church generally consider it - without special reference to religious "slavery;

3. Because the only ones who made a consecration as "slaves"
to the Blessed Virgin with him as intermediary did not confer to him de facto any greater power than that which a director has over those he directs. In addition to this, such a consecration lost its effectiveness in the family of souls of the TFP.

Having said this, it would be a show of bad faith and a flagrant injustice to manipulate the words "slavery" and "slave" to give the understanding that the family of souls of the TFP would have returned to those dark pagan times when it was not considered that every man is made in the image and likeness of God and that all that one does for the most humble who occupies the lowest places on the social scale is the same as if one does it for Christ Our Lord Himself (Mt. 25:45).

Having closed this work with the idea that helping the lesser
is the glory of the greater and the outstanding characteristic of the harmony of Christian Civilization, it is impossible for the one who writes this work not to relate this idea to all the assistance that the great founder of the family of souls of the TFP, Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, gives to each one of those whom the grace has called to participate in his most high and most ardent vocation, even though they be weak and small. How many weaknesses sustained by his firm hand, how many defects cured by his efficacious remedies, how many shortcomings transcended by his continuous support, how many thirsts for good and justice satiated by limpid waters of confidence, how much hunger for truth filled at the banquet table of orthodoxy!

How can one consider so many favors without returning thanks?
And how to return thanks without asking pardon for that which was not done?

But, over and above the expressions of gratitude and the par
dons, a joy fills the spirit of the members of the family of souls of the TFP: It is the joy that, at least in one, Our Lady was duly served and glorified. It was in that one who, meriting to be the master of all, served all (1 Cor. 9:19) in order to be the true "slave" of She who was the "Slave of the Lord" (Luke 1:38). And serving all, he conquers all, because the epic grandeur of his vocation, humiliating himself even to the level of the smallness of each one, reveals in his souls such a dedication and meekness that it moves the good in those who still have even a Catholic fiber in their hearts.42 (42).

To the founder of the family of souls of the TFP, to the di
rector of the Counter-Revolution, to my father,43 to my master, to my lord, rendered here is the samll homage of one who should have served much more.

Atila Sinke Guimarães São Paulo, September 1, 1984

"To my master, to my lord" might be considered excessive homage to one who, however holy, is only a founder and a superior.

[elsewhere in the docuмent] "...the TFP can consider Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira as a mediator between Our Lady and this forementioned family of souls".  That seems to be putting Plinio next in the ranking after Christ and Our Lady. Has this kind of honor been paid even to saintly founders and superiors (before they were even canonized!)?


I'm not positive this is a fair comparison (I don't know enough about Plinio Correa de Oliveira) but this reminds me of the adulation that the priests of the Legion of Christ gave to their founder
Marcial Maciel Degollado.  He was a real saint to them (I know someone in the order); and they were utterly stunned when he was exposed.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Croixalist on May 30, 2019, 04:58:48 AM
Any way you cut it, this is far too much spiritual obedience given to a member of the laity. Plinio was a very articulate and intelligent man to be sure, combined with a forceful personality. Perhaps too forceful! The Plinio "litany" may have been a mocking parody, but the more Atila reveals, the more I can see the underlying truth behind it. He may have held public office earlier in his career, but at the time of the TFP's founding he was neither a man of secular or religious authority. A distinguished man with a gift for language and many great insights? Certainly. As much of a scholar he may have been, this is way over the top for a man who had not taken vows himself:

"the assistance that the great founder of the family of souls of the TFP, Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, gives to each one of those whom the grace has called to participate in his most high and most ardent vocation, even though they be weak and small. How many weaknesses sustained by his firm hand, how many defects cured by his efficacious remedies, how many shortcomings transcended by his continuous support, how many thirsts for good and justice satiated by limpid waters of confidence, how much hunger for truth filled at the banquet table of orthodoxy!"

If he was accustomed to such overflowing praise in his lifetime, it's not hard to see how it could have warped his judgement.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on May 30, 2019, 02:50:59 PM
I'm new here
I'm sure.  :laugh1: :chef:
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Doce Me on May 30, 2019, 06:38:31 PM
I'm sure.  :laugh1: :chef:
Thank you for the friendly welcome - uh, was that what it was?

I post frequently an another forum, but it doesn't use the same BBcodes/quoting mechanism. That's no reason to poke fun at my post.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on May 30, 2019, 11:59:56 PM
Thank you for the friendly welcome - uh, was that what it was?

I post frequently an another forum, but it doesn't use the same BBcodes/quoting mechanism. That's no reason to poke fun at my post.
I find it suspicious your very first post was a polemic against Dr. Plinio and Atila... That is why I made my comment.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on May 31, 2019, 05:00:06 PM
I find it suspicious your very first post was a polemic against Dr. Plinio and Atila... That is why I made my comment.
From the perspective of a cult-follower of TFP/TIA, it sounds like a "polemic" against your worshiped leader.
To a normal person, it is an unbiased, rational analysis.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on May 31, 2019, 05:03:50 PM
Thank you for the friendly welcome - uh, was that what it was?

I post frequently an another forum, but it doesn't use the same BBcodes/quoting mechanism. That's no reason to poke fun at my post.
Sorry about the unwelcome you received here. You will soon learn that this forum has been infiltrated by what Bishop Mayer called the "anti-Catholic, anti-clerical, heretical sect" called Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) in South America and a a spin off group, also anti-Catholic, anti-clerical and heretical, called Tradition in Action (TIA).
Welcome to the forum.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Cera on May 31, 2019, 05:07:11 PM
I'm new here, and not too knowledgeable about TIA, but I had a couple of comments based on scanning the file from TIA that Markus linked to:
Athough Atila explicitly denies "de facto" slavery to Plinio here, he sure shows extreme adulation:


"To my master, to my lord" might be considered excessive homage to one who, however holy, is only a founder and a superior.

[elsewhere in the docuмent] "...the TFP can consider Dr. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira as a mediator between Our Lady and this forementioned family of souls".  That seems to be putting Plinio next in the ranking after Christ and Our Lady. Has this kind of honor been paid even to saintly founders and superiors (before they were even canonized!)?


I'm not positive this is a fair comparison (I don't know enough about Plinio Correa de Oliveira) but this reminds me of the adulation that the priests of the Legion of Christ gave to their founder
Marcial Maciel Degollado.  He was a real saint to them (I know someone in the order); and they were utterly stunned when he was exposed.
Astute observations. The tactics of TFP/TIA and their many other offshoots are a sophisticated refinement of the quite evil cult called Legioinairre's of Christ.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Doce Me on May 31, 2019, 08:04:17 PM
I find it suspicious your very first post was a polemic against Dr. Plinio and Atila... That is why I made my comment.
I just stated my honest impression of what I read - as quoted directly from the docuмent you linked to. SOME post had to be the first one I made; I had no ulterior motive for you to be suspicious of for posting here in particular. :)

FWIW: I don't have any problem with the title "Our Lady of Good Success", even though I DO got to the SSPX.  I understand that the title is used even independently from TIA. I have also met Marian Horvat when she gave a talk here and found her very intelligent.

Right now I'm not planning to get deep into the argument here, either way.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 31, 2019, 08:16:52 PM
Doce Me,

You signed up for an account in 2011 but you just made your first post?

Also, you profile shows you have 15 upvotes and 1 downvote. ?

Not trying to attack you at all, just honest questions.

Maybe there is a glitch or something.

Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on May 31, 2019, 09:58:28 PM
 I have also met Marian Horvat when she gave a talk here and found her very intelligent.
Very good. When did you meet Dr. Horvat?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Doce Me on May 31, 2019, 10:19:03 PM

Quote
Doce Me,

You signed up for an account in 2011 but you just made your first post?

Also, you profile shows you have 15 upvotes and 1 downvote. ?

Not trying to attack you at all, just honest questions.

Maybe there is a glitch or something.

The system thought I was new since it didn't show any posts at first, plus I joined SO long ago and posted very little (if at all) so I sure FELT new.  I have no idea what happened to any old posts or why I have upvotes.  I thought it was curious to see that after posting just once.

Maybe it wasn't polite to sign up and then not post much at all but surely I'm not the only one who ever does this. I had no nefarious intentions!

Honest answers! :)   Maybe there was some glitch, but I know nothing about it.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Nadir on May 31, 2019, 10:27:34 PM
I believe that when you join you start with 10 +s and 0 -s. I also believe that quite a few folk join up and don't post. 

ANyway, Doce Me, welcome from me, in spite of the fact that I joined after you.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Your Friend Colin on May 31, 2019, 10:28:17 PM
The system thought I was new since it didn't show any posts at first, plus I joined SO long ago and posted very little (if at all) so I sure FELT new.  I have no idea what happened to any old posts or why I have upvotes.  I thought it was curious to see that after posting just once.

Maybe it wasn't polite to sign up and then not post much at all but surely I'm not the only one who ever does this. I had no nefarious intentions!

Honest answers! :)   Maybe there was some glitch, but I know nothing about it.
 Very odd

Welcome!  ;D
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Doce Me on May 31, 2019, 10:33:31 PM
Very good. When did you meet Dr. Horvat?
In the last few years she was at a friend's home giving a talk on (I think it was?) Our Lady of Fatima.  I had to leave in the middle.  It's hard not to like her when you meet her in person.
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Markus on May 31, 2019, 10:36:57 PM
In the last few years she was at a friend's home giving a talk on (I think it was?) Our Lady of Fatima.  I had to leave in the middle.  It's hard not to like her when you meet her in person.
Oh wonderful. Yes she is a very courteous lady...  ;D Do you live in California?
Title: Re: Atila and the TFP
Post by: Doce Me on May 31, 2019, 10:38:38 PM
Oh wonderful. Yes she is a very courteous lady...  ;D Do you live in California?
Yes :)