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Offline DZ PLEASE

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Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2017, 11:18:27 PM »
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  • The thing is, sedeplenists cannot ignore the NO.
    That's as may be but the questions remain, perhaps all the more pressing upon those holding such a position; is this your point?
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 12:32:51 AM »
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  • Yes. I was simply answering one of your questions.
    Thank you.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Captain Tor

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #17 on: October 05, 2017, 10:51:59 AM »
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  • Further, the SSPX has always taught that that to say "The documents of Vatican II are openly heretical. There is nothing worth salvaging from that Council." is moderately Sedevacantists, as stated in their Which are the true Catholics leaflet.

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 11:18:17 AM »
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  • Please read here for better format.

    Subversive Letter of Bishop Fellay
    October 4, 2017Sean Johnson
    Uncategorized


    A [Subversive] Word from the Superior General

    Cor Unum – June/2017

    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}][size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}][size={defaultattr}]
     
    Dear members of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X:
    A few troubles have broken out in our dear Fraternity in recent months. Some members felt that they had to take a position publicly to express their point of view, using the pulpit or their bulletins for that purpose. In this they have acted in disregard of the elementary rules of every organized society, and also of our internal statutes and rules which require that relations with Rome be reserved for the Superior General. This is a provision of our venerated founder. Any article on this subject must therefore receive the approval of the Superior General, after having been submitted to the judgment of the Superior of the district.
    We therefore condemn these untimely initiatives, the most serious of which have been sanctioned. Is it necessary to recall that the General Chapter of 2006 included among the grounds for dismissal of the Fraternity rebellion and the public dissemination of a dispute with the authority? Let this warning be taken seriously.
    As always, these confreres imagine they are defending Tradition. But in fact, the means they use weaken it by seriously attacking the unity of our fraternity, sowing discord and causing confusion among the members and the faithful. Moreover, they pretend to dictate to the authority what should be its conduct. Whatever the good intention or the quality of the arguments, it is impossible to use an evil and unlawful means without causing damage to the common good.
    Once again, we take this opportunity to recall the nature of our relations with Rome, since that is what it is all about.
    [/size][/font][/size][/font][/size]

    • The Church is experiencing one of the most terrible crises in its history, both in its intensity and in the extent of the errors spread at all levels of the hierarchy and the Catholic universe. This internal crisis began well before the Second Vatican Council; it goes back at least to the pontificate of Leo XIII and was strongly denounced by Saint Pius X under the name of modernism. It is experiencing a dazzling development on the occasion of the last Council which introduced a number of new principles and “pastoral” attitudes in order to open up to the world. The latter was able to diffuse its spirit in the favor of compliant texts which were matured. If today voices are heard to deplore a false reception of the Council, speaking of a para-council, a council of the media, we must note that the door open to these errors, called false interpretations, is found in the texts and the very atmosphere of the Council. If it is difficult to define exactly “the spirit of the Council,” it is in its name that the Church has been gravely wounded a planta pedis usque ad verticem capitis …
    • Faced with this terrible reality, Archbishop Lefebvre reacted by taking the means that had to be used to get out of it. He was able to form priests, while rejecting the new orientations, faithful to all the truths and all that had been transmitted by our Mother the Holy Church;

    • That’s what saved us! Moreover, it is this firmness which has allowed us to develop and manifest to the world and to the Church that attachment to Tradition is not a nostalgia for the past; but on the contrary a prodigious manifestation of the action of grace today;
    • Obviously, this way of acting contrasts with the general spirit which reigns in the Church. The Roman sanctions as well as the will of the authorities to impose the postconciliar reforms, have forced us to live in a certain autarchy. This is the meaning of the operation survival of Tradition …
    • Monseigneur Lefebvre, however, never wanted to separate himself from the Church. It is with great precaution that in the sermon of the sacraments and in other writings he manifested our attachment to the Church by refusing any schismatic spirit. Both his actions before the consecrations and his remarks afterwards show that for him there was no alternative: the pope remains the pope, the bishops of the bishops, with their prerogatives, even if they make mistakes , even heresies. That is why he always demanded that we appoint them to the Canon of the Mass.
    [size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}][size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}][size={defaultattr}][size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
    Here we touch on the crux of the problem that affects us all, for it involves our future, and even our existence. How can we concretely hold the principle of obedience to the Church when in the very name of obedience we must reject everything from the errors that destroy it?
    A line of action has been defined, in particular at the Chapters of 2006 and 2012. It emerges from a set of principles and practical applications. The principles do not change, but the circumstances in which they must be applied are modified and require adjustments or clarifications, which was done in 2012 or last year in Anzère.
    The fundamental principle that we follow from the beginning is that of fidelity to the Church and its perennial teaching. For the Church can not change either the faith or the commandments of God. The accidental modifications, the new dispositions which it applies prudently throughout the centuries, must correspond to this first principle: “nihil novi nisi quod traditum est.” That is why we cry out loud and clear that we remain Catholic, even if we do not follow the reforms of the last fifty years, and that we refuse to follow the ecclesiastical authorities whenever they wish to impose them. For nothing in the world we do not want to distance ourselves from this line of conduct.
    This may give the impression of a certain contradiction: we affirm our submission to the legitimate authority and we almost systematically refuse to follow it. However, with helping time and human nature being what it is, some of us adopt erroneous attitudes, either by exaggeration, by simplism, or by intellectual laziness. If we are to remain in the Truth, we must also respect the reality and verify that our affirmations of the moment really correspond to the facts as they unfold before our eyes.
    It is imperative that the justification of our line of conduct strictly respects all Catholic principles. We can not free ourselves from it. For example, it is a false and very dangerous approximation to say: “We do not need a delegation for marriages”; “The substitute jurisdiction for confessions is enough for us …”; “The acceptance of a delegation for marriages signifies acceptance of the novelties of the Council,” etc. I am afraid that some will end up “dogmatising” a prudential action. It is not because we are struggling in an interminable crisis that we should a priorirefuse any advance in favor of Tradition, free ourselves from any rule, was it established at the Council of Trent, or disregard the power of the keys given to the successor of Peter. We have never refused in principle to recognize the acts of the Pope when they are legitimate.
    Much good, much work to bring priests or faithful to Tradition, are thus prevented by cerebral and abstract reasoning that does not correspond to reality. I wonder how some consider the “conversion of Rome,” the return of the Church to its Tradition, while they carefully avoid any action, any contact with the official Church, not to mention the Ecclesia Dei mobility. Saint Francis de Sales already understood that one did not catch flies with vinegar …
    It is a fundamental mistake to think that there is nothing better to expect from the official Church, purely and simply identified with the modernist or conciliar Church. While we receive everything from the Church even today. All the means of sanctification, all that we bring to the faithful, we have from this Church with its hierarchy, its pope, its bishops, a very real and concrete Church, the one we have before us. To want to identify it with the conciliar Church inevitably leads to a sterile refusal of all initiative, even good, under the false pretext that it would corrupt our work. It is like wanting to convert sinners while avoiding them!
    We must maintain the principle according to which we receive from the Catholic hierarchy, especially from the pope, but also from the bishops, the means of sanctification. The axiom ecclesia supplet is valid only in the event of the failure of the authorities for various reasons, the main one being the salus animarum, the transmission of integral faith, the communication of grace through sacraments certainly valid. Even in cases where it is outside the normal exercise of authority, the principle of legislative intent must nevertheless be carefully preserved. We are not free to do what we want in the regime of the Church’s substitution of jurisdiction – and I fear that we have taken a liking to this false appearance of freedom.
    We mistrust the official Church because of the grave deficiencies of disastrous reforms for the good of souls, and rightly so. But to come to the conclusion that “everything is bad” is necessarily exaggerated and false. Especially since there exists today, though imperfectly, a movement of resistance and reaction to the conciliar disaster.
    For several years now, we have witnessed a slow evolution in conservative circles. There is today a real realization of the gravity of the widespread errors, a questioning of certain reforms of the Council. In liturgy as in theology, there is a real desire for a return to much more serious. The fact that the dominant line remains strongly progressive and does its utmost to neutralize conservative efforts no longer allows universal assertions such as “everything is corrupt”, “they are all modernists”, and so on.
    The same is true of the Ecclesia Deimovements, including in the Fraternity of St. Peter, where there are a number of Nicodemes, convinced that the analysis of Bishop Lefebvre on Vatican II is the right one.
    This does not mean that all the prerequisites and requirements for canonical recognition are already met. Nevertheless, progress in this direction is undeniable. Here is, for example, what Pozzo wrote to me in March/2017:
    “I underlined [with Pope Francis] that the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X longs to preserve the spiritual, theological, disciplinary and pastoral identity desired by Archbishop Lefebvre, that is, experience and life of Catholic Tradition prior to the reforms that followed the Second Vatican Council. The pope has not expressed any reservation on this subject. Similarly, with regard to the two points discussed (the possibility of consecrating auxiliary bishops among the clergy of the Prelature and recognition of the clerical state from tonsure and commitment to celibacy as early as sub-diaconate), His Holiness stated that he had no objection to this.”
    In conclusion, we believe that it is right to say that we are gradually seeing an improvement in the conditions imposed on us by Rome, that this is part of a more general reaction to the objectively more serious situation of the Church in its aggregate. But as far as Rome and ourselves are concerned, this situation is not yet satisfactory to conclude. After a short period of exaggerated optimism on the part of Bishop Pozzo, who was pushing, even as probable, the date of recognition of May 13 this year, we heard in turn Pope Francis and Cardinal Müller announce that things would still take time. “To walk, to walk, and then we shall see” the papal will of not rushing. In the same way Cardinal Müller: “We must take the time, (…) it takes a deeper heart conversion”.
    In the present phase, therefore, we need to know whether the Roman authorities will confirm the “relativization” of the Council in spite of the pressure of the Progressives, and whether the Pope is prepared to concretize in either specific or universal laws what was reported to us by Bishop Pozzo.
    As for us, we see no other option than to continue to treat with great caution with the Roman authorities, who for the moment have shown benevolence. We have much to gain, both Tradition and the whole Church. Time works for us, and we discern every day in an evident way the hand of Divine Providence.
    Let us look at the history of the Fraternity sub specie æternitatis. And then the serene and all-powerful protection of the God of peace which it has enjoyed hitherto, should calm the minds of the troubled people of the Church.
    Deign Notre-Dame, his Immaculate Heart, to grant all the members of the Fraternity peace of hearts under his benevolent protection.
    On the Feast of the Holy Trinity, Menzingen, June 11, 2017
    + Bernard Fellay[/font][/size][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size]

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #19 on: October 05, 2017, 11:57:00 AM »
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  • Further, the SSPX has always taught that that to say "The documents of Vatican II are openly heretical. There is nothing worth salvaging from that Council." is moderately Sedevacantists, as stated in their Which are the true Catholics leaflet.
    Yes if you do not subscribe to their hybrid principals you are punished with a detraction.This is why they keep the sedvacantist card at the ready and alive, as a means of coercion to keep the faithful in line and bannish dissenters. 


    Offline Merry

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #20 on: October 05, 2017, 09:17:48 PM »
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  • Does it really live, and if so in what way?

    Regardless, why linger in its orbit like moths to a flame?

    If you can rightly wish it dead, then why consider it any more relevant than any other false system?

    If you don't wish to be tricked then how wise is it to do the bidding of the magician, most of all by paying him unmerited and imprudent attentions?

    Why so much focus, so much emphasis on that which not only has no salvific value, but quite the opposite?

    Do we render justice to the True, Beautiful, and Good in minding so much that which is otherwise?

    Is this not at least possibly a form of idolatry, witting or otherwise?
    DZ, with all due - as you would say - I finally realized the liberal, peacenik approach you are advocating here.  

    You may not be old enough as are some of us who lived in and remember the Church before the Council, but there would be no traditional movement/resistance to this awful Council and its results, if it wasn't for those who responded in indignation and reaction against the sacrileges and heresies that came to the Catholic world in the wake of Vat. II.  There are some of us on this board who were among the original student and child guinea pigs of "the Changes." 

    You appear to be saying just ignore the thing.  

    Pius X disagrees with you.  He said the modernists should "be beaten with fists."  He said those who oppose modernism will be called "traditionalists."  He bemoaned the lethargy of Catholics who do not resist evil.

    Our confirmation graces require that we stay away from sin, esp. sacrilege - and charity requires we warn others about the dangers of the modern Vat. II Church. But what is more - if anyone can see or realize to any extent, the goodness of God in His Mass, in His Blessed Eucharist, to not only feed us with Himself but to actually remain on our altars, and then not rise in horror when the devil's legions flooded the sanctuaries and men's souls with the "spread of Communism's errors" -- this overtly satanic attack on the Church -- well what kind of "Catholic" is such a person?  WE ARE THE CHURCH MILITANT.  Our Lord cried out to St. Margaret Mary about the coldness of the men of the 1600's - and He wanted reaction to it, He wanted reparation, He wanted LOVE.

    How much more now!?!?  

    With Christian love I say to you, DZ, to quit your cutesy, cryptic, edgy, hard-to-understand-and-a-pain-to-"try"-to-read-so-frequent-contributions around here (not to mention how funny it is that you of all people correct other people's grammatical errors since no one knows what you yourself are even saying half the time!) and spend more time reading or thinking about or praying concerning this deluge of atrocity we are under and the insults Almighty God is enduring - not to mention how few Masses He is receiving now to expiate this multitude of daily crimes.    

    With what you wrote above, you don't seem to have the Faith.  You are lacking a Catholic spirit.  It seems you actually don't understand what the NEW ORDER is as pertaining to its attack on the Church and what it means and is.  Catholics in the 60's with your approach are the ones who just laid down and let it happen.    
    Death to the Novus Ordo.
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 09:28:44 PM »
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  • Poor Bp. Fellay... talking in circles again.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #22 on: October 05, 2017, 09:33:12 PM »
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  • DZ, with all due - as you would say - I finally realized the liberal, peacenik approach you are advocating here.  

    You may not be old enough as are some of us who lived in and remember the Church before the Council, but there would be no traditional movement/resistance to this awful Council and its results, if it wasn't for those who responded in indignation and reaction against the sacrileges and heresies that came to the Catholic world in the wake of Vat. II.  There are some of us on this board who were among the original student and child guinea pigs of "the Changes."

    You appear to be saying just ignore the thing.  

    Pius X disagrees with you.  He said the modernists should "be beaten with fists."  He said those who oppose modernism will be called "traditionalists."  He bemoaned the lethargy of Catholics who do not resist evil.

    Our confirmation graces require that we stay away from sin, esp. sacrilege - and charity requires we warn others about the dangers of the modern Vat. II Church. But what is more - if anyone can see or realize to any extent, the goodness of God in His Mass, in His Blessed Eucharist, to not only feed us with Himself but to actually remain on our altars, and then not rise in horror when the devil's legions flooded the sanctuaries and men's souls with the "spread of Communism's errors" -- this overtly satanic attack on the Church -- well what kind of "Catholic" is such a person?  WE ARE THE CHURCH MILITANT.  Our Lord cried out to St. Margaret Mary about the coldness of the men of the 1600's - and He wanted reaction to it, He wanted reparation, He wanted LOVE.

    How much more now!?!?  

    With Christian love I say to you, DZ, to quit your cutesy, cryptic, edgy, hard-to-understand-and-a-pain-to-"try"-to-read-so-frequent-contributions around here (not to mention how funny it is that you of all people correct other people's grammatical errors since no one knows what you yourself are even saying half the time!) and spend more time reading or thinking about or praying concerning this deluge of atrocity we are under and the insults Almighty God is enduring - not to mention how few Masses He is receiving now to expiate this multitude of daily crimes.    

    With what you wrote above, you don't seem to have the Faith.  You are lacking a Catholic spirit.  It seems you actually don't understand what the NEW ORDER is as pertaining to its attack on the Church and what it means and is.  Catholics in the 60's with your approach are the ones who just laid down and let it happen.    
    Death to the Novus Ordo.
    You "realize" little sir, but I "realize" that there would be no point in elaborating further.

    Save your BS "charity bat" while you're at it, and perhaps learn to make some distinctions, stop assuming, and actually understand a thing before you attack another thing thinking it your target.

    Have a care, not so Merry.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #23 on: October 05, 2017, 09:34:08 PM »
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  • Caption Tor, could you please hand deliver this to your "handlers?"




    (Fictitious) Open Letter of All SSPX Priests to Bishop Fellay
    October 5, 2017Sean Johnson
    Uncategorized


    Having read Bishop Fellay’s subversive Cor Unum letter of June/2017, we noted not a single voice of opposition from the 600+ priests of the SSPX dispersed throughout the world.  Even so recently as six years ago, such a letter would have caused such a firestorm within the Society, that Bishop Fellay’s survival of the forthcoming General Chapter would have been endangered. 

    Those days seem so long ago!

    But today, not a word.  

    Consequently, Sodalitium Pianum took it upon itself to create a fictitious response which might have come from the SSPX clergy in better days.

    Open Letter to Bishop Fellay from All Priests and Bishops of the SSPX

    June/2017

    Continue reading here...

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 09:53:55 PM »
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  • DZ - If you are not for destroying the Novus Ordo, as Pius X intended to do with his condemnation of Modernism, his Pascendi and Lamentabilis - then what are you doing here?

    You may understand yourself, but you may not see how you are coming across.  Or, maybe you are exactly as you are coming across.
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #25 on: October 05, 2017, 10:03:24 PM »
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  • DZ - If you are not for destroying the Novus Ordo, as Pius X intended to do with his condemnation of Modernism, his Pascendi and Lamentabilis - then what are you doing here?

    You may understand yourself, but you may not see how you are coming across.  Or, maybe you are exactly as you are coming across.

    FWIW Merry, take a good slug of scotch, followed with a long deep breath and don't be so serious all the time... some humor just takes some time to soak in...  
    :cheers:


    Offline Merry

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #26 on: October 05, 2017, 11:08:30 PM »
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  • Sorry St. Ig - didn't care for what DZ said to my first post here and had to respond.  

    On that, very serious.

    Will still do scotch, though.  
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline hismajesty

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #27 on: October 09, 2017, 05:40:37 AM »
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  • Captain Tor needs a good slap!

    We're not in a cult of Archbishop Lefebvre here. He said lots of stupid things like we all do. We don't have to follow everything he did. We follow the truth.

    So go and be cosy with your friend Pope Francis, and see how far it gets you!
    "....I am at a loss what to say respecting those who, when they have once erred, consistently persevere in their folly, and defend one vain thing by another" - Church Father Lactentius on the globe earth

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #28 on: October 09, 2017, 05:51:39 AM »
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  • So go an be cosy with your friend Pope Francis, and see how far it gets you!
    “Even if he were an incarnate devil, we ought not to raise up our heads against him – but calmly lie down to rest on his bosom.”
    ... “He who rebels against our Father, Christ on earth, is condemned to death, for that which we do to him, we do to Christ in heaven – we honor Christ if we honor the pope, we dishonor Christ if we dishonor the pope… I tell you that God will(s) and has so commanded that even if the priests and the pastors of the Church and Christ on earth were incarnate devils, it is seemly that we are obedient and subject to them, not for their sake, but for the sake of God, out of obedience to Him, for He wills that we should act thus. ... Know that the son is never in the right against the father, even if the father is ever so evil and unjust, for so great is the good which he has received from the father, that is, life itself, that he can never repay him for it. And we have received the life of grace from the Church, which is so great a benefit, that we can never, by any kind of homage or gratitude, pay the debt we owe.”
    f/ "Catherine of Siena: A Biography", by Anne Baldwin (OSV Publishing 1987, pp.95, 96)

    emph. DZ P
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Arguing Against An Angry Accordista Again
    « Reply #29 on: October 10, 2017, 01:53:21 PM »
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  • The cry of every novus ordo-ite...
    Eclipses neither prove nor disprove the flat earth.

    "As for whether or not I work for NASA, I'm sorry, but I fail to understand what that could possibly have to do with anything" Neil Obstat, 08-03-2017

     

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