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Author Topic: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?  (Read 20726 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #160 on: April 27, 2018, 01:49:58 PM »
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This is not by means the "reality".  If it were "reality", then you are in schism and outside the Church.  Your are bound to accept the teaching of Vatican II as substantially Catholic and the Novus Ordo Mass as substantially Catholic and not a danger to faith (when properly said).
Completely and utterly irrelevant.  My status as a schismatic is irrelevant to who is or isn't pope.

If you agree that +Bellarmine's approach to the papacy is accurate, then you must say +Francis is the pope.  There's no other logical conclusion.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2018, 01:57:52 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on April 27, 2018, 12:34:44 AM

Bellarmine explains that only a judge, properly so-called, has the power to render a perfect judgment, and says in no case can such a judgment be rendered against a pope.  He goes on to say, however, that a discretionary judgment is permitted against a pope, and proves it by citing the historical cases of Popes Sixtus III, Leo III and Leo VI, who, when accused of crimes, desired to have a council of bishops hear their case.  It is certain that these popes and the bishops at the council believed a discretionary judgment was permitted against a sitting pope.

Cite where Bellarmine states that a "discretionary judgment" is essential to rendering the heresy "manifest".  You try to cobble together a narrative from this, but in treating the subject of a heretical Pope Bellarmine explicitly states that it's only because he's already lost the pontificate that he can be judged and punished.  Discretionary judgment is not essential to the definition of being manifest.  Bellarmine uses the term "manifest" by way of contrast with "secret" or interior, i.e. unknowable by man.

If Bergoglio were to wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm becoming a Buddhist.", according to you, this is still not manifest but "secret" and he remains pope until a General Council can convene to render a "discretionary judgment".  That's just nonsensical.

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #162 on: April 27, 2018, 02:13:20 PM »
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If Bergoglio were to wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm becoming a Buddhist.", according to you, this is still not manifest but "secret" and he remains pope until a General Council can convene to render a "discretionary judgment".  That's just nonsensical.
It's nonsensical to have a PROCESS?  It's nonsensical to wait for the CHURCH to decide such a grave matter?  Your logic leads to chaos...

What's nonsensical is your implication that anyone can judge the pope what they consider to be 'manifest' heresy.  There's absolutely no historical precendent for ANY of the laity to judge the pope in this area.  Not even close.

A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: 11Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Who can admonish the pope, but Church officials?
Secondly, have you admonished him personally?  If not, then you cannot say his heresy is manifest.
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Offline Cantarella

Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2018, 02:28:29 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on April 27, 2018, 12:44:55 PM

The conditions for a teaching of one of Peter's successor to be free from error is what was defined at Vatican I.

No, what is defined is the conditions for such Papal definitions to be irreformable in themselves and not needing the consent of the Church.

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Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

It does not mean that the rest of the papal teachings contain error. 

It also does not mean that Catholics are bound to obedience to the ex-cathedra definitions, in exclusivity.
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Offline Cantarella

Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2018, 02:36:46 PM »
We know infallibly that the See of St. Peter is unblemished by any error.


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Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren

That idea that only the ex- cathedra Papal definitions are infallible and that the rest of teachings do not require true obedience is wrong.
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