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Author Topic: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?  (Read 16876 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #150 on: April 27, 2018, 01:05:49 PM »
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    The general council is called AFTER heresy is determined,
    Yes, forlorn, I agree.  However you are claiming that YOU can determine whether the pope is heretical.  +Bellarmine says otherwise and your view is not supported at all. 
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #151 on: April 27, 2018, 01:20:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 27, 2018, 01:05:49 PM
    Yes, forlorn, I agree.  However you are claiming that YOU can determine whether the pope is heretical.  +Bellarmine says otherwise and your view is not supported at all.
    My opinion that Francis is a heretic is not why I don't accept him as Pope. No, I agree, I have no authority to declare Francis is a heretic. But just out of interest, what do you imagine would be the proper procedure to determine a Pope is a heretic? It must, according to both our interpretations of St. Bellarmine's writing, take place before the General Council. So how is it determined?
    I am myself unsure of exactly how I'd answer that question, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on it. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #152 on: April 27, 2018, 01:26:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 27, 2018, 10:52:35 AM
    This is how I view it as well.  Until the Church declares the pope a manifest heretic, we cannot say he's not the pope.

    Right, we cannot definitely say he's deposed until the Church recognizes it to be the case (typically through a declaration).  That's why I am what I have called a "sede-doubtist".

    But he's deposed from the time of the heresy, since the recognition does not actually cause the deposition.  We could have a formal Ecuмenical Council convened in 10 years by a legitimate Pope declare, John XIII et al. were never popes.  That doesn't mean they ceased to be popes at the time of the declaration, but none of their acts even existed as far as the Church would be concerned.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #153 on: April 27, 2018, 01:29:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on April 27, 2018, 12:14:28 PM
    Just as during an election when the Church provides the matter and then God grants the form, when a Pope becomes a heretic God revokes the form and THEN and only then can the Church depose the matter.

    THIS ^^^
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #154 on: April 27, 2018, 01:34:40 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on April 27, 2018, 12:19:35 PM

    “For Jurisdiction is certainly given to the Pontiff by God, but with the agreement of men, as is obvious; because this man, who beforehand was not Pope, has from men that he would begin to be Pope, therefore, he is not removed by God unless it is through men. But a secret heretic cannot be judged by men…”

    Papal jurisdiction (the form) is taken from the pope by God, but not without the judgment of men.  

    No, you misinterpret the context of this statement.  Bellarmine clearly states that it's only because he's already lost the form that the Church can judge him.  This passage is explaining why SECRET heresy doesn't cause deposition, but if no one can discern the heresy if it's not MANIFEST.  It's his explanation of what MANIFEST means.

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #155 on: April 27, 2018, 01:37:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on April 27, 2018, 12:19:35 PM
    St. Alphonsus says a pope must persist in notorious heresy to lose his office.  One formally heretical statement does not qualify as persistent notorious heresy.

    You're conflating terms.  For a heresy to be formal, it must already be pertinacious.  Pertinacity is obviously a requirement for heresy, but it's not the same thing as "sincerity".  Sincerity belongs to the internal forum and can be judged ultimately by God alone.  All this is saying is that if the Pope were to blurt out a heretical proposition, he doesn't immediately get deposed upon saying it.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #156 on: April 27, 2018, 01:37:28 PM »
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    My opinion that Francis is a heretic is not why I don't accept him as Pope. No, I agree, I have no authority to declare Francis is a heretic.

    Thank you for being honest.  You are one of a VERY few sedevacantists (in my experience) who would answer thus. 

    IF ONLY EVERY SEDE COULD ANSWER AS FORLORN, THEN WE MIGHT HAVE UNITY IN TRADITIONALISM.  Instead, we have infighting, divisions and extreme uncharity PRECISELY because people refuse to accept the reality that until the Church determines that the pope is a heretic, then his status remains as pope. 

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    But just out of interest, what do you imagine would be the proper procedure to determine a Pope is a heretic? It must, according to both our interpretations of St. Bellarmine's writing, take place before the General Council. So how is it determined?
    I am myself unsure of exactly how I'd answer that question, but I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on it. 
    I don't know, but I would guess to say that some sort of council, synod, etc would take place and they would declare him a heretic/deposed all at once.  I don't see the need to separate the two acts, but they could be. 

    If separated, the declaration of his heresy could be an official letter signed by the Cardinals/curia and sent out to all the dioceses/bishops, so the faithful would be aware.  Then a council could be called to declare his deposition.

    All of this would come after 2 public 'corrections' of the pope, which would be evidence of his heresy and obstinacy.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #157 on: April 27, 2018, 01:46:58 PM »
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    Right, we cannot definitely say he's deposed until the Church recognizes it to be the case (typically through a declaration).  That's why I am what I have called a "sede-doubtist".
    Well, logically and based on objective reality, since the Church hasn't declared him a heretic, nor deposed him, what is there to doubt?  He's still pope.  End of story.
    Part of the problem with many of you is that you overcomplicate things.  Theory is not reality.  If you agree that +Bellarmines' rules are valid, there is no doubt as to who's the pope.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #158 on: April 27, 2018, 01:47:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 27, 2018, 01:37:28 PM
    because people refuse to accept the reality that until the Church determines that the pope is a heretic, then his status remains as pope.

    This is not by means the "reality".  If it were "reality", then you are in schism and outside the Church.  Your are bound to accept the teaching of Vatican II as substantially Catholic and the Novus Ordo Mass as substantially Catholic and not a danger to faith (when properly said).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #159 on: April 27, 2018, 01:49:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 27, 2018, 01:46:58 PM
    Well, logically and based on objective reality, since the Church hasn't declared him a heretic, nor deposed him, what is there to doubt?  He's still pope.  End of story.

    End of story, my foot.  See the previous post.

    He remains materially pope until the Church declares otherwise.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #160 on: April 27, 2018, 01:49:58 PM »
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    This is not by means the "reality".  If it were "reality", then you are in schism and outside the Church.  Your are bound to accept the teaching of Vatican II as substantially Catholic and the Novus Ordo Mass as substantially Catholic and not a danger to faith (when properly said).
    Completely and utterly irrelevant.  My status as a schismatic is irrelevant to who is or isn't pope.

    If you agree that +Bellarmine's approach to the papacy is accurate, then you must say +Francis is the pope.  There's no other logical conclusion.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #161 on: April 27, 2018, 01:57:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on April 27, 2018, 12:34:44 AM

    Bellarmine explains that only a judge, properly so-called, has the power to render a perfect judgment, and says in no case can such a judgment be rendered against a pope.  He goes on to say, however, that a discretionary judgment is permitted against a pope, and proves it by citing the historical cases of Popes Sixtus III, Leo III and Leo VI, who, when accused of crimes, desired to have a council of bishops hear their case.  It is certain that these popes and the bishops at the council believed a discretionary judgment was permitted against a sitting pope.

    Cite where Bellarmine states that a "discretionary judgment" is essential to rendering the heresy "manifest".  You try to cobble together a narrative from this, but in treating the subject of a heretical Pope Bellarmine explicitly states that it's only because he's already lost the pontificate that he can be judged and punished.  Discretionary judgment is not essential to the definition of being manifest.  Bellarmine uses the term "manifest" by way of contrast with "secret" or interior, i.e. unknowable by man.

    If Bergoglio were to wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm becoming a Buddhist.", according to you, this is still not manifest but "secret" and he remains pope until a General Council can convene to render a "discretionary judgment".  That's just nonsensical.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #162 on: April 27, 2018, 02:13:20 PM »
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    If Bergoglio were to wake up tomorrow and say, "I'm becoming a Buddhist.", according to you, this is still not manifest but "secret" and he remains pope until a General Council can convene to render a "discretionary judgment".  That's just nonsensical.
    It's nonsensical to have a PROCESS?  It's nonsensical to wait for the CHURCH to decide such a grave matter?  Your logic leads to chaos...

    What's nonsensical is your implication that anyone can judge the pope what they consider to be 'manifest' heresy.  There's absolutely no historical precendent for ANY of the laity to judge the pope in this area.  Not even close.

    A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: 11Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

    Who can admonish the pope, but Church officials?
    Secondly, have you admonished him personally?  If not, then you cannot say his heresy is manifest.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #163 on: April 27, 2018, 02:28:29 PM »
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    • Quote from: RomanTheo on April 27, 2018, 12:44:55 PM

    The conditions for a teaching of one of Peter's successor to be free from error is what was defined at Vatican I.

    No, what is defined is the conditions for such Papal definitions to be irreformable in themselves and not needing the consent of the Church.

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    Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.

    It does not mean that the rest of the papal teachings contain error. 

    It also does not mean that Catholics are bound to obedience to the ex-cathedra definitions, in exclusivity.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #164 on: April 27, 2018, 02:36:46 PM »
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    • We know infallibly that the See of St. Peter is unblemished by any error.


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    Indeed, their apostolic teaching was embraced by all the venerable fathers and reverenced and followed by all the holy orthodox doctors, for they knew very well that this See of St. Peter always remains unblemished by any error, in accordance with the divine promise of our Lord and Savior to the prince of his disciples: I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren

    That idea that only the ex- cathedra Papal definitions are infallible and that the rest of teachings do not require true obedience is wrong.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.
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