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Author Topic: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?  (Read 17103 times)

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Offline Mr G

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #60 on: April 23, 2018, 01:51:25 PM »
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  • Why this article presents Fr. Kramer as a sympathizer of sedevacantism?

    That is far from the truth from what I know.
    True, Fr. Kramer is NOT a sedevacantist as he believes Pope Benedict is the true Pope. Father has said that when Benedict dies, then there will be no pope until the Cardinals elect another Pope.
    For those that may be interested into learning the other side of the argument against Siscoe and Salza, see here:
    Defection from the Faith and the Church - Faith, Heresy, and the Loss of Office - An Exposé of the Heresy of John Salza and Robert Siscoe Part I
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/the-hammer-destroys-heretics-fr-kramers.html
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/apostolica-sedes-nemine-iudicatur.html
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/from-clear-as-summer-sun-file-fr-kramer.html

    Offline kiwiboy

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #61 on: April 23, 2018, 03:29:43 PM »
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  • Prediction: Sean Johnson will still be the Grand Poobah no matter how many posts on this thread.  He can never be proven wrong.  He studies theology every waking moment.  Except for Sundays when he is attending Mass and posting his irrefutable wisdom on CathInfo.  And on weekdays when he is working.  And on Saturdays when he is mowing the lawn.  But other than that, he is studying only the best Catholic theology.  Such as True Or False Pope.  Because that is irrefutable theology by the most brilliant part-time lay theologians.  Sean’s world!  Sean’s world! Yeah!  Cool!

    lol.

    Dude.... *high five*


    I'd put that as my signature, but Neil deserves it more.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #62 on: April 23, 2018, 03:33:36 PM »
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  • True, Fr. Kramer is NOT a sedevacantist as he believes Pope Benedict is the true Pope. Father has said that when Benedict dies, then there will be no pope until the Cardinals elect another Pope.
    For those that may be interested into learning the other side of the argument against Siscoe and Salza, see here:
    Defection from the Faith and the Church - Faith, Heresy, and the Loss of Office - An Exposé of the Heresy of John Salza and Robert Siscoe Part I
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/the-hammer-destroys-heretics-fr-kramers.html
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/apostolica-sedes-nemine-iudicatur.html
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/from-clear-as-summer-sun-file-fr-kramer.html
    why does he think Benedict is the Pope? Does he believe he was forced to abdicate against his will?

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #63 on: April 23, 2018, 03:44:33 PM »
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  • why does he think Benedict is the Pope? Does he believe he was forced to abdicate against his will?
    That's typically what the Resignationists believe.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #64 on: April 23, 2018, 04:34:35 PM »
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  • I said I was ducking out on Ladislaus because I know in advance he (like yourself) will never admit your sect is based on a delusion stemming from selective quoting of Bellarmine, ...

    Your sect  :laugh1:.

    Oh, you ignorant baboon, you.  I proudly belong to this "sect" which opposes your heretical view that the Church's Universal Magisterium and Universal Discipline have become corrupt and a danger to souls.

    I have repeatedly stated that my own position more closely follows John of St. Thomas ... who in turn found a mean between Bellarmine and Cajetan.  But, as others have pointed out, S&S bungled the order of events in the Bellarmine scenario.  But, no, my position does not rely on Bellarmine.  It relies, instead, on the unanimously-held Catholic teaching that the Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline cannot be harmful or corrupt.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #65 on: April 23, 2018, 04:56:25 PM »
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  • 10 minute countdown...
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline ignatius

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #66 on: April 23, 2018, 05:01:51 PM »
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  • True, Fr. Kramer is NOT a sedevacantist as he believes Pope Benedict is the true Pope. Father has said that when Benedict dies, then there will be no pope until the Cardinals elect another Pope.
    For those that may be interested into learning the other side of the argument against Siscoe and Salza, see here:
    Defection from the Faith and the Church - Faith, Heresy, and the Loss of Office - An Exposé of the Heresy of John Salza and Robert Siscoe Part I
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/the-hammer-destroys-heretics-fr-kramers.html
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/apostolica-sedes-nemine-iudicatur.html
    http://radtradthomist.chojnowski.me/2018/03/from-clear-as-summer-sun-file-fr-kramer.html

    Not true.  Fr. Kramer publicly claimed sedevacantism in 2013 BEFORE he claimed Benedict is still the pope.  Whether he bounces between the two is political football.

    https://novusordowatch.org/2013/11/paul-kramer-rejects-francis/

    https://novusordowatch.org/2013/12/kramer-resignationists/

    The elephant in the room is why does Fr. Kramer put more credence in the modernist Benedict than in the modernist Francis?  Did he not declare Benedict a flaming modernist too in his book 'the devil's final battle'?


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #67 on: April 23, 2018, 05:04:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    Church's Magisterium and Universal Discipline cannot be harmful or corrupt.
    Explain how V2 is part of the Universal Discipline if it cannot be traced back to Apostolic times and disagrees with Tradition?  Explain how V2 and the new mass can corrupt the magisterium when they aren’t morally binding, nor taught with certainty of Faith?

    Since you can’t answer the above (you’ve been given ample opportunities) then your assertions are incorrect and not based on facts. 


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #68 on: April 23, 2018, 05:08:27 PM »
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  • Explain how V2 is part of the Universal Discipline if it cannot be traced back to Apostolic times and disagrees with Tradition?  Explain how V2 and the new mass can corrupt the magisterium when they aren’t morally binding, nor taught with certainty of Faith?

    Since you can’t answer the above (you’ve been given ample opportunities) then your assertions are incorrect and not based on facts.
    Because the celebration of TLM was extremely limited for many years and Catholics were ordered under pain of sin to attend Novus Ordo masses. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #69 on: April 23, 2018, 05:10:50 PM »
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  • Now the day has passed, and we shall judge of the weight and validity of the attempted rebuttals to Siscoe/Salza's contention that the sedevacntist enterprise is built upon an illusion; a misreading of St. Bellarmine, removed from context, and interpreted in a univocal sense, causing their error:

    1) My first observation is that none of the sedes has made any substantial rebuttal to Pax Vobis' (excellent) summation of St. Bellarmine's true argument;

    2) It looked early on as though Cantarella was going to test the waters, but quickly fled upon seeing a shark (Pax Vobis);

    3) 2Vermont's OCD kicked in of course, but not in any qualitative way.  Were it a "last word" contest, she would have a chance, but refuting Pax Vobis?  I don't think she even tried.

    4) Finally Ladislaus...poor man...he still gives no indication a day later of having read Siscoe/Salza's article; certainly he makes no attempt to refute Pax Vobis' summation of Bellarmine's true position (because he can't).

    Therefore, the verdict: Pax Vobis by knockout in the very first round.

    My ode to Pax Vobis:

    Abdiel the Seraph in Milton's "Paradise Lost:"

    “So spake the Seraph Abdiel faithful found,
    Among the faithless, faithful only hee;
    Among innumerable false, unmov'd,
    Unshak'n, unseduc'd, unterrifi'd
    His Loyaltie he kept, his Love, his Zeale;
    Nor number, nor example with him wrought
    To swerve from truth, or change his constant mind
    Though single.

    From amidst them forth he passd,
    Long way through hostile scorn, which he susteind
    Superior, nor of violence fear'd aught;
    And with retorted scorn his back he turn'd
    On those proud Towrs to swift destruction doom'd.”
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #70 on: April 23, 2018, 05:16:23 PM »
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  • What I posted was from the Remnant... I apologize for forgetting the link.  I will post later. 


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #71 on: April 23, 2018, 05:18:56 PM »
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  • Quote
    Catholics were ordered under pain of sin to attend Novus Ordo masses. 
    The order never came from the papacy or Rome, but from diocesan bishops.  BIG difference.  

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #72 on: April 23, 2018, 05:20:48 PM »
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  • You are correct Cantarella.  
    About a year ago I seem to recall that on another forum, SuscipeDomine, either Salza or Siscoe was posting there.  He posted the incorrect order and this error was brought to his attention.  He was never able to refute it.  In fact, he disappeared from the forum completely.  
    Of course, at this point, you could not foresee Pax Vobis swooping in to put you in check...
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #73 on: April 23, 2018, 05:21:47 PM »
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  • Cantarella,
    The entire point of this thread is to point out that one must read + Bellarmine's opinion IN PARALLEL with Cajetan's position, who is he arguing with.  If you strictly read +Bellarmine and ignore the context of Cajetan's argument, you are reading +Bellarmine out of context as well.
    ...and there is the left hook...
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Pax Vobis

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