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Author Topic: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?  (Read 10567 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2018, 10:45:42 PM »
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  • Here is my prediction:

    When I return to this thread at about 5PM CST tomorrow:

    Though it will have surpassed the 10 page mark, and eclipsed 150+ comments, not one single post will have been able to refute the OP, and consequently, the venom which will try to compensate for that inadequacy will reach all-time highs.

    We will see...
    Prediction: Sean Johnson will still be the Grand Poobah no matter how many posts on this thread.  He can never be proven wrong.  He studies theology every waking moment.  Except for Sundays when he is attending Mass and posting his irrefutable wisdom on CathInfo.  And on weekdays when he is working.  And on Saturdays when he is mowing the lawn.  But other than that, he is studying only the best Catholic theology.  Such as True Or False Pope.  Because that is irrefutable theology by the most brilliant part-time lay theologians.  Sean’s world!  Sean’s world! Yeah!  Cool!


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #46 on: April 22, 2018, 10:56:21 PM »
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  • Why this article presents Fr. Kramer as a sympathizer of sedevacantism?

    That is far from the truth from what I know.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #47 on: April 22, 2018, 11:10:59 PM »
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  • Quote
    Notice the sequence of events: First the Pope is judged and declared a heretic by the Church; then he is “ipso facto” deposed by Christ; lastly (after he is deposed by Christ) he is “judged and punished by the Church.”

    This is not the correct order of events. This is Bellarmine's order of events:

    1) The impostor is "ipso facto" deposed by Christ.

    2) He is then judged and declared a formal heretic by the Church

    3) He is then punished by the Church.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #48 on: April 22, 2018, 11:19:59 PM »
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  • Why this article presents Fr. Kramer as a sympathizer of sedevacantism?

    That is far from the truth from what I know.
    Because there exists a number of Catholics who hate sedevacantism with every bone in their body, and they have been able to look into the future to see that when Benedict dies a huge number of Catholics from all the many different groups will shout out from the top of their lungs: sede vacante!

    Yes, indeed many Catholics from the diocese, the Resistance, SSPX, SSPV and Ecclesia Dei groups just do not believe that the pontificate of Bergoglio is real. Fr. Kramer is almost symbolic in this because he noticed right away that the papacy of Bergoglio was not reliable and has been very vocal.

    I mean just look at what a diocesan priest has to say about the pontificate of Francis here:  http://www.traditionalcatholicpriest.com/2016/10/14/why-pope-francis-is-a-false-prophet/

    Or look at what Bishop Gracida of Corpus Christi, Texas had to say about Francis.

    Even Bishop Fellay had called into question the papacy of Francis. The real numbers of those who doubt the pontificate of Francis or just outright believe it is Benedict are huge. The conclusion here is that eventually Benedict will die! Then what?

    At this point, a group within the resistance are the only ones claiming that you may not doubt the papacy of Bergoglio. It's basically them and Siscoe and his friend or whoever they are. Literally them and Voris and maybe Fr. Pfeiffer and Sean Johnson. That's about it. So, naturally they are worried. There are too many sitting ducks being conditioned by the media (inadvertently!) to believe that Francis is no pope. When others start to jump ship of the Bergoglian papacy what will be left to resist? Even diocesan novus ordo types don't believe that Francis is pope. God save the Resistance (to what and to whom?).
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #49 on: April 23, 2018, 06:42:39 AM »
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  • Bump
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 06:59:31 AM »
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  • This is not the correct order of events. This is Bellarmine's order of events:

    1) The impostor is "ipso facto" deposed by Christ.

    2) He is then judged and declared a formal heretic by the Church

    3) He is then punished by the Church.
    You are correct Cantarella.  
    About a year ago I seem to recall that on another forum, SuscipeDomine, either Salza or Siscoe was posting there.  He posted the incorrect order and this error was brought to his attention.  He was never able to refute it.  In fact, he disappeared from the forum completely.  
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 09:21:22 AM »
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    “The fifth opinion is thus the true one: a manifestly heretical pope ceases by that very fact to be pope and head, even as he ceases by this reason to be a Christian and a member of the Body of the Church; and this is why he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the position of all the ancient fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction”
    Cantarella,
    The entire point of this thread is to point out that one must read + Bellarmine's opinion IN PARALLEL with Cajetan's position, who is he arguing with.  If you strictly read +Bellarmine and ignore the context of Cajetan's argument, you are reading +Bellarmine out of context as well.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 09:59:44 AM »
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  • "Manifest heresy" is not something that can be judged by anyone outside of the Church officials.  Many of you falsely assume that if a pope says something heretical multiple times or believes in heresy, therefore he is manifest.  This is incorrect.  Manifest heresy is proved, as St Paul says, after 2 public corrections, which would happen from the Church.  If such corrections have not/do not take place, then one is not a manifest heretic.  THERE IS A PROCESS FOR EVERYTHING.  Manifest heresy is not based on probability, or opinion, or democratic polling.  It is decided by the Church alone.  See below for more details...

    ---

    Public Heretic
    Some theologians have held that if a pope became a manifest heretic he would automatically lose his office, thereby rendering the Chair of Peter vacant.  The great Doctor of the Church, St. Robert Bellarmine, was of this opinion.  He wrote:
    Bellarmine: “[T]the Pope who is manifestly a heretic ceases by himself to be Pope and head, in the same way as he ceases to be a Christian and a member of the body of the Church; and for this reason he can be judged and punished by the Church”. (13)
       
    The question we must consider is what constitutes manifest heresy in the external or public forum?   According to the late Canon Gregory Hesse, who held a Ph.D. in canon law and Thomistic theology, a formal heretic in the external forum is a declared heretic. He explained that a heretic can be declared in one of two ways: either he is declared a heretic by the proper authorities, or he declares himself a heretic.  But how would a person declare themself to be a formal heretic?

    Since formal heresy requires pertinacity, in order for a statement that is materially false to be considered formally heretical in the external forum, pertinacity would also have to be manifest.  Without a formal declaration by the Church, and short of the man in question leaving the Church, or publicly admitting that he rejects a defined dogma, pertinacity would have to be demonstrated another way.  The other way, according to St. Robert Bellarmine, would be for the man to remain manifestly obstinate after two warnings.  Only then would pertinacity be demonstrated in the external form, thereby rendering him a manifest heretic.
    Bellarmine: “The fourth opinion is that of Cajetan, for whom the manifestly heretical Pope is not “ipso facto” deposed, but can and must be deposed by the Church. To my judgment, this opinion cannot be defended. For, in the first place, it is proven with arguments from authority, and from reason, that the manifest heretic is “ipso facto” deposed. The argument from authority is based on Saint Paul, who orders that the heretic be avoided after two warnings, that is, after showing himself to be manifestly obstinate – which means before any excommunication or judicial sentence”. (14)
       
    So according to St. Bellarmine, who bases his opinion on St. Paul, a heretic is considered to be manifestly obstinate after receiving two warnings.  But who would be responsible for warning the Pope?  The eminent eighteenth-century Italian theologian, Father Pietro Ballerini, discusses this very point.
    Fr. Ballerini: “The Cardinals, who are his counselors, can do this; or the Roman Clergy, or the Roman Synod, if, being met, they judge this opportune. For any person, even a private person, the words of Saint Paul to Titus hold: ‘Avoid the heretic, after a first and second correction, knowing that such a man is perverted and sins, since he is condemned by his own judgment’ (Tit. 3, 10-11). For the person, who admonished once or twice, does not repent, but continues pertinacious in an opinion contrary to a manifest or public dogma - not being able, on account of this public pertinacity to be excused, by any means, of heresy properly so called, which requires pertinacity - this person declares himself openly a heretic. He reveals that by his own will he has turned away from the Catholic Faith and the Church, in such form that now no declaration or sentence of any one whatsoever is necessary to cut him from the body of the Church. (…) Therefore the Pontiff who after such a solemn and public warning by the Cardinals, by the Roman Clergy or even by the Synod, maintained himself hardened in heresy and openly turned himself away from the Church, would have to be avoided, according to the precept of Saint Paul. So that he might not cause damage to the rest, he would have to have his heresy and contumacy publicly proclaimed, so that all might be able to be equally on guard in relation to him. Thus, the sentence which he had pronounced against himself would be made known to all the Church, making clear that by his own will be had turned away and separated himself from the body of the Church, and that in a certain way he had abdicated the Pontificate, which no one holds or can hold if he does not belong to the Church”. (15)
       
    In the next quote, the great Jesuit Suarez comments on this same point:    
    Suarez: “I affirm: if he were a heretic and incorrigible, the Pope would cease to be Pope just when a sentence was passed against him for his crime, by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church. This is the common opinion among the doctors, and it is gathered from the first epistle of Saint Clement I, in which one reads that Saint Peter taught that a Pope heretic must be deposed.  (…) In the first place, who ought to pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it would be the Cardinals; and the Church would be able undoubtedly to attribute to them this faculty, above all if it were thus established by the consent or determination of the Supreme Pontiffs, as was done in regard to the election. But up to today we do not read in any place that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, one must affirm that, as such, it pertains to all the Bishops of the Church, for, being the ordinary pastors and the pillars of the Church, one must consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter is of more interest to these bishops than to those, and since by human law nothing has been established in the matter, one must necessarily sustain that the case refers to all, and even to the general council. That is the common opinion among the doctors”. (16)
       
    A pope who merely seems to have lost the Faith, or who has made statements that are erroneous or even heretical, yet who has not openly left the Church or been publicly warned, does not constitute a manifest heretic.  And since no such warnings have been given to any of the post-Vatican II popes, either before or after their election, none of them qualify as a manifest heretic.
       
    And it should also be noted that many theologians have held that a manifestly heretical pope does not automatically lose his office.  According to Suarez, this was the common opinion in his day.
    Suarez: “in no case, even that of heresy, is the Pontiff deprived of his dignity and of his power immediately by God himself, before the judgment and sentence of men. This is the common opinion today”. (ibid.)
        
    If one reads sedevacantist materials (which are usually the same quotations transferred from one website to another), they are left with the impression that virtually all agree that a Pope who becomes a manifest heretic automatically loses his office.  Yet as we just saw, it was the common opinion in Suarez’ day that a heretical pope could only be deprived of his office by the judgment and sentence of men.
        
    Below, Suarez explains why a Pope would not lose his office without a judgment and declaration of men, and then list the effects that would result if a declaration was not necessary – “effects” that sound like prophecies today.
    Suarez: “f the external but occult heretic (17) can still remain the true Pope, with equal right he can continue to be so in the event that the offense became known, as long as sentence were not passed on him.  And this for two reasons: because no one suffers a penalty if it is not “ipso facto” or by sentence, and because in this way would arise even greater evils. In effect, there would arise doubt about the degree of infamy necessary for him to lose his charge; there would rise schisms because of this, and everything would become uncertain, above all if, after being known as a heretic, the Pope should have maintained himself in possession of his charge by force or by other”. (ibid.)
        
    Do these prophetic words not reflect the situation today for those who reject what was, according to Suarez, the common opinion of his day?  How many “popes” have been elected by the sedevacantists to date?  Well over a dozen.  And how many more schisms are there between the various sedevacantist groups who have not gone so far as to elect their own pope?

    And it should be noted that others have argued that a Pope could not be deprived of his office, even due to public heresy, because of the harm it would do to the Church.  While this is only a minority opinion, the following teaching of the French canonist Bouix is worth citing.
    D. Bouix: “There is not sufficient reason to think that Christ had determined that an heretical Pope could be deposed. … We deny absolutely, however, that Christ could have established as a remedy the deposition of the Pope.  For … such a remedy would be worse than the evil itself. Indeed, one either supposes that this deposition would be carried out by Christ himself, as soon as the Pope were declared a heretic by a general council according to the doctrine of Suarez, or one supposes that it would be realized by virtue of the authority of the general council itself. Now, in both cases the evil would be aggravated, and not remedied. For the doctrine according to which Christ himself would depose the Pope heretic, as soon as the General council declared him a heretic, is no more than an opinion, rejected by any, and with which it is licit, for anyone whatsoever, to disagree. … Such being the case, even after it were declared by a General Council that a certain Pope were a heretic, it would absolutely not become certain that that Pope would be deposed; and in such a doubt one must rather continue to respect his authority. If another Pope were elected not only would he be of uncertain legitimacy, but he would even have to be branded as an intruder. Therefore, the remedy of a deposition made by Christ in the moment of a conciliar declaration, not only would not remedy the evil, but would create an evil much more grave, that is, a most intricate schism. Consequently, by no means should one think that Christ established such a remedy. But neither should one think that He established as a remedy deposition by the authority of the council itself. For, the deposition of a Pope by a council, besides being impossible, as will be said further on, would be followed by a worse evil if it were possible”. (18)
    Although the above citation represents a minority opinion, it shows that whether or not a pope would automatically lose his office through manifest heresy is an open question.

    Footnotes
    7) Essay on Heresy, by Arnaldo Vidigal Xavier da Silveira
    8) ibid.
    9) Heresy in History
    10) “The very commission of any act which signifies heresy, e.g., the statement of some doctrine contrary or contradictory to a revealed and defined dogma, gives sufficient ground for juridical presumption of heretical depravity” McKenzie, The Delict of Heresy, CU Canon Law Studies 77
    11) ibid.
    12) Heresy in History
    13) De Romano Pontifice, Bk. 2
    14) ibid.
    15) De Potestate Ecclesiastica, pgs.104-105
    16) De Fide, disp. X, sect. VI, nn. 3-10, pg. 316-317
    17) An external but occult heretic is one who has manifested his heresy to a small group, but not to the general public
    18) Tract. de Papa, tom. II, pgs. 670-671


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 10:14:07 AM »
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  • "Manifest heresy" is not something that can be judged by anyone outside of the Church officials.  Many of you falsely assume that if a pope says something heretical multiple times or believes in heresy, therefore he is manifest.

    That's not true in all cases.  If Bergoglio were to come out and say, "I don't believe in the existence of hell.  I know it's heretical but I don't care."  There's no need for any further "judging" by anyone.  Bergoglio has come close to this a couple times, although his predecessors insisted they were in continuity with Tradition.  This is how, as Canon Hesse stated, Bergoglio would declare HIMSELF a heretic.

    In any case, however, the argument is from the indefectibility of the Magisterium and Church's Universal Discipline rather than the personal heresy of Jorge Bergoglio.  Whether it's due to illegitimate election or personal heresy, at the end of the day it doesn't matter; all I know is that the Church's Universal Magisterium and Discipline cannot become corrupt to the degree R&R falsely claims it can.

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 10:31:57 AM »
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  • At present, there is not a functioning Church to make such a determination as such, but Christ's Faithful must at times rely on their "sensus Catholicus", to determine, to the best of their ability, if another churchman is a danger to their Faith when there is no one else to represent their spiritual welfare.
    That is not to say that they can make any juridical judgements,  but only practical ones which have to do with their spiritual safety, (who they should avoid).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #55 on: April 23, 2018, 11:00:53 AM »
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    That is not to say that they can make any juridical judgements,  but only practical ones which have to do with their spiritual safety, (who they should avoid).
    Agree.  Yet sedes would disagree because they think they can make juridical judgements outside and independent of Church authorities.  Then they claim that everyone who doesn't agree with them in declaring pope x, y or z "manifest" is also a heretic since they are guilty by association.  It's complete madness and out of control hubris.

    The R&R viewpoint, in my opinion, is simply this:  No layman, priest, bishop or group of bishops, or combination of the 3, has the authority, the vocation, or the moral imperative to declare anyone a manifest heretic.  Even if they decided to do so, such a 'decision' is meaningless in the eyes of the Church and is not binding whatsoever on any other catholic, in any degree.  No one can be declared to be a manifest heretic, or can be declared to be (or have been) removed from their office EXCEPT BY CHURCH OFFICIALS.  Outside of this authoritative, clear and final decision, the pope remains the pope, by default.  In the same vein, no pope can be declared to be an anti-pope, or to have been ineligible except for Church officials.  In absense of such an OFFICIAL determination, one cannot hold that person x isn't the pope, or wasn't elected, etc WITH ANY AUTHORITY or CERTAINTY.  So, if anyone elevates a THEORY to realm of fact, or if they inflate a PROBABILITY to the level of certainty, they do so in error, in haste, in pride, and in uncharity to the Church as a whole.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #56 on: April 23, 2018, 01:07:45 PM »
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  • But you skip over the first question, namely WHO DECIDES IF THE POPE IS MANIFEST?  This decision MUST come from the CHURCH after a PROCESS whereby the pope is PUBLICLY CORRECTED for his public heresy.

    The determination by the CHURCH of the pope's manifest heresy hasn't been decided yet (in the case of +Francis, he's been corrected once already).  Ergo, we cannot precede to the question of deposition, or auto-loss of the office yet.

    You sedes are jumping ahead, falsely assuming his manifest heresy is obvious.  Such determination is ONLY from the Church.  +Bellarmine argues that if a pope is determined to be a manifest heretic, then he loses his office.  Ok, fine.  But we're not there yet.

    Offline Theosist

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #57 on: April 23, 2018, 01:26:31 PM »
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  • Are these the same Siscoe and Salza who claim one can be “in” the Church without being a member of the Church, contra 

    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (#30), June 29, 1943: “…it was on the tree of the Cross, finally, that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body.


    What? You say the arguments in True or False Pope here rest upon the same erroneous ideas of Msgr. Fenton used to deny Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus?

    😱

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #58 on: April 23, 2018, 01:47:05 PM »
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  • Manifest, publicly: Saying the New Order mess.  Know them by their fruits.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #59 on: April 23, 2018, 01:49:42 PM »
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    Manifest, publicly: Saying the New Order mess.

    Not your determination to make.