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Author Topic: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?  (Read 10547 times)

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Offline SeanJohnson

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Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2018, 10:08:07 PM »
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  • Yes, I wrote that there, but I also followed up on your response to me about your so-called "moral unanimity".  You failed to answer that question over there too...which was the point of my post here.  Would you like me to pull that over here too, Smartypants?

    We can talk about anything on your mind, 2Vermont.

    I just note that what we WON'T talk about is how sedevacantists do not understand Bellarmine

    and

    You admitted to the only point about moral unanimity I care to defend.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #31 on: April 22, 2018, 10:10:11 PM »
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  • "Funny, I always thought the definition of unanimity meant agreement among all the people of a group....as in 100%."

    https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/non-una-cuм-and-the-resistance/15/  

    Which of us is delusional and a liar??
    3.04 x 10 (-7) [pardon that I can't find exponents on my current keyboard] was something like the number of those who doubt the papacy of Francis. While I would argue that it is slightly more, it shouldn't matter. It has become universal in the Catholic Church. Mark my words, when Benedict passes from this earth you will see people in the diocese, Ecclesia Dei groups, the SSPX, the Resistance, CMRI and the SSPV that will claim sede vacante. Many do not believe that Bergoglio is pope. But here comes Mr. Sean Johnson who claims that the papacy of Francis is a dogmatic fact. Save me the trouble of commenting further and be honest. There is NO unanimity. Never was and is not. A blind man can see it.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #32 on: April 22, 2018, 10:13:31 PM »
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  • 3.04 x 10 (-7) [pardon that I can't find exponents on my current keyboard] was something like the number of those who doubt the papacy of Francis. While I would argue that it is slightly more, it shouldn't matter. It has become universal in the Catholic Church. Mark my words, when Benedict passes from this earth you will see people in the diocese, Ecclesia Dei groups, the SSPX, the Resistance, CMRI and the SSPV that will claim sede vacante. Many do not believe that Bergoglio is pope. But here comes Mr. Sean Johnson who claims that the papacy of Francis is a dogmatic fact. Save me the trouble of commenting further and be honest. There is NO unanimity. Never was and is not. A blind man can see it.

    ...yet you feel the need to make countless posts trying to convince others of what you allege a blind man can see.

    I would prefer you to say something along the lines of, "Since I started dabbling in sedevacantist chapels, I have come to see things their way."

    Or even better:

    "I really don't care what St. Bellarmine said, and because of that, I refuse to read the article you posted.  Nevertheless, I will insist that whatever he said, it creates wiggle room for sedevacantism."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #33 on: April 22, 2018, 10:15:35 PM »
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  • We can talk about anything on your mind, 2Vermont.

    I just note that what we WON'T talk about is how sedevacantists do not understand Bellarmine

    and

    You admitted to the only point about moral unanimity I care to defend.
    I have no interest in chatting with dogmatic sedeplenist, anti-sedevacantists like yourself.  All I'm interested in is revealing your hypocrisy when you whined about Ladislaus not returning to a thread.  And I have.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #34 on: April 22, 2018, 10:16:32 PM »
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  • That post was beneath you (I hope).
    I agree with you on some points and disagree on others. I never knew the Novus Ordo so I don't have that experience. If Bergoglio is the pope or not is not the most important issue in my life right now. It won't affect my Catholic Faith. Maybe he is not and maybe he is. I'm not willing to get all dogmatic on that issue because there is clearly positive doubt. Some sedes say I must resolve that doubt. Now some of the Resistance say I must never doubt. Ironically, the diocesan Eastern rites and some of the SSPX and SSPV will let me be. Resistance to what if you dogmatize the papacy of Bergoglio.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #35 on: April 22, 2018, 10:20:34 PM »
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  • I would prefer you to say something along the lines of, "Since I started dabbling in sedevacantist chapels, I have come to see things their way."
    Within the last six hours, I left from Mass at a diocesan church. In fact, it was the diocesan church where I was baptized, though I have never attended the Novus Ordo Mass. Therefore, I have dabbled in the sede vacante and am contaminated. Brother Sean, I am far from being a sede vacantist. I just don't think that they are to be held as non-Catholics. These are times of crisis. They may be right. I maintain the position that if the priest does not offer the Novus Ordo and is a true Catholic priest not preaching or adhering to errors of Vatican 2 then one can in good conscious attend his Mass. Just trying to be Catholic and maintain the True Catholic Faith.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #36 on: April 22, 2018, 10:21:04 PM »
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  • I have no interest in chatting with dogmatic sedeplenist, anti-sedevacantists like yourself.  All I'm interested in is revealing your hypocrisy when you whined about Ladislaus not returning to a thread.  And I have.

    Sorry, you have not.

    All you have done this far (besides being cuaght in a lie which you admitted to), is avoided responding to the OP, and talked about pretty much everything except your favorite color in an attempt to divert the conversation.

    And what hypocrisy are you referring to:

    I said I was ducking out on Ladislaus because I know in advance he (like yourself) will never admit your sect is based on a delusion stemming from selective quoting of Bellarmine, and have no desire to go tit for tat with him for anothere 100+ pages.

    But I started this thread because the whole world knows I have him nailed to the wall for which he can have no comeback (and therefore no endless tot for tat)
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #37 on: April 22, 2018, 10:21:39 PM »
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  • Quote
    Where the Sedevacantists have erred is by interpreting the ipso facto loss of office to be similar to an “ipso facto” latae sententiæ excommunication, which occurs automatically (or ipso facto), when one commits an offense that carries the penalty, without requiring an antecedent judgment by the Church. But this is not at all what Bellarmine and Suarez meant by the ipso facto loss of office.  What they meant is that the ipso facto loss of office occurs after the Church judges the Pope impostor to be a heretic and before any additional juridical sentence or excommunication (which differs from Cajetan’s opinion). In other words, after the Church establishes “the fact” that the Pope impostor is a manifest heretic (who was never a legitimate successor of St. Peter), he, according to this opinion, is deemed to lose his office ipso facto 

    It is fixed now  :)
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #38 on: April 22, 2018, 10:24:24 PM »
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  • Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #39 on: April 22, 2018, 10:26:35 PM »
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  • Thank you, Sean, for the excellent research on +Bellarmine.  It never made sense to me that a Doctor of the Church would support that a pope would “ipso facto” lose his office.  This leads to what we have today in trad land - chaos and division.  

    As +Bellarmine rightly points out THERE HAS TO BE A PROCESS.  There has to be order.  There has to be an organized, authoritative decision by the Church on such an important matter as the pope.  

    If the pope is visibly elected, as a visible head of the Church, then his removal must also be visible.  God did not create His Church to be run by the laity, or opinion, heresay, conjecture or probability. The only people who have a say in who is the pope are the Cardinals.  The Church is not a democracy!

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #40 on: April 22, 2018, 10:28:15 PM »
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  • Here is my prediction:

    When I return to this thread at about 5PM CST tomorrow:

    Though it will have surpassed the 10 page mark, and eclipsed 150+ comments, not one single post will have been able to refute the OP, and consequently, the venom which will try to compensate for that inadequacy will reach all-time highs.

    We will see...
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #41 on: April 22, 2018, 10:32:32 PM »
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  • As +Bellarmine rightly points out THERE HAS TO BE A PROCESS.  There has to be order.  There has to be an organized, authoritative decision by the Church on such an important matter as the pope.  

    Yes, but the crucial part you are missing is that such process comes AFTER the man has long lost his pontificate before God. The Church is therefore not judging the Pope, but only the man.

    Quote
    “The fifth opinion is thus the true one: a manifestly heretical pope ceases by that very fact to be pope and head, even as he ceases by this reason to be a Christian and a member of the Body of the Church; and this is why he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the position of all the ancient fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction”
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #42 on: April 22, 2018, 10:33:25 PM »
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  • Childish.

    I can't be serious all the time, can I?  ;)
     
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #43 on: April 22, 2018, 10:34:22 PM »
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  • Sorry, you have not.

    All you have done this far (besides being cuaght in a lie which you admitted to), is avoided responding to the OP, and talked about pretty much everything except your favorite color in an attempt to diveret the conversation.

    And what hypocrisy are you referring to:

    I said I was ducking out on Ladislaus because I know in advance he (like yourself) will never admit your sect is based on a delusion stemming from selective quoting of Bellarmine, and have no desire to go tit for tat with him for anothere 100+ pages.

    But I started this thread because the whole world knows I have him nailed to the wall for which he can have no comeback (and therefore no endless tot for tat).
    I never admitted to a lie...and I never lied.    

    What I admitted to was that I did question unanimity in the other thread, but not in this thread.  I also said that I subsequently questioned your "moral unanimity" in that thread and that THIS was what I was referring to in THIS thread.  

    You chose to focus on "unanimous consent" in this thread thereby AVOIDING my post in THIS thread: that somehow Novus Ordo adherents, adherents to a false, non-Catholic religion determine who the pope is in the Catholic Church...your so-called "moral" unanimity...a joke.
     
    With respect to leaving the other thread, we know what you SAID.  But you left because you can't answer the question that Ladislaus and others had regarding your "moral unanimity".  And you still can't. Hypocrisy.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Are Sedevacantists Clueless About St. Bellarmine's True Position?
    « Reply #44 on: April 22, 2018, 10:43:55 PM »
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  • From the Cassisiacuм Thesis:

    Quote
    Robert Bellarmine has clearly specified the two most important elements involved:

    The cardinals, when they create a Pontiff, exercise their authority, not on the pope as such, since he is not yet such, but on the matter, that is to say, on the person which they dispose in some way by the election in order that he might receive from God the form of the pontificate.

    These different statements allow us to precisely limit the elements which lead up to the “statement of a fact” provided by the Thesis of Cassiciacuм. The Thesis demonstrates that the occupant of the Apostolic Chair lacks that determination which is intrinsically linked to infallibility. This determination is of necessity “that which is communicated by God,” even though it is only by divine “assistance” that the Pope is infallible.

    In other words, what the proof demonstrates is the absence of the function and the power of (infallibly) teaching, and along with this the absence of the supreme power of jurisdiction which is directly linked to the former. This is what Pontifical Authority, or the “Primacy of Peter,” considered formally, consists of. According to the phrase of St. Robert Bellarmine, it is the “form of the pontificate,” which is immediately communicated by God Himself. Finally, since what the occupant of the Apostolic Chair lacks is the “form” of the Pontificate, the determining and formal element which makes the Pope to be such, we say: “He is not formally the Pope.” This, then, is what directly and with certitude establishes the basis for the first part of the Thesis.

    But the argument says nothing about the other determinants (such as the duration, such as would be logical) which also pertain to the Roman Pontiff. These antecedent determinations (to the form) involve at least his legitimate election and his acceptance of same (insofar as they are publicly manifest). St. Robert Bellarmine says that the person of the elected can be likened to the “matter,” and the election is like a disposition to the form of the Pontificate. And as every disposition is attached to a material cause, we say at the end of our first section that the person who occupies the Apostolic See remains materially a Pope. At this point we should positively affirm this because, quite simply, we have provided no element which permits us to sustain the contrary.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.