Author Topic: Are Resistance Priests "Vagus" ? (Read 6309 times)

Pepe · « **Reply #15 on:** October 20, 2015, 05:41:35 PM »

Quote from: MaterDominici

Quote from: confederate catholic
the difference Mater between KY. and the SSPX is that the SSPX was founded canonically. although if there is no way for KY to be recognized.......

Quote
The entire SSPX is often described as "vagus", so why pick on Boston, KY?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but even their canonical establishment was to form priests who would then be incardinated into a diocese. Other than the first few who did indeed join a diocese, the rest all become "vagus" as soon as they take an "assignment" from the SSPX which has no authority to do so.

Dear MD,

A "vagus" priest is one who is not under the authority of any bishop. The SSPX priests are all under the authority of Bishop Fellay, who is their SG and who gives each of them a valid celebret, signed by him. The priests of the resistance are not under the authority of either Bishops Williamson or Faure or God forbid "Bishop Ambrose" and they do not (and cannot) carry celebrets issued by them. It's ridiculous to even suggest that they are still subject to Bishop Fellay. End of.

IN VERITATE VICTORIA · « **Reply #16 on:** October 20, 2015, 05:59:59 PM »

Word Origin and History for vagus
n.

plural vagi, 1840, from Latin vagus "wandering, straying" (see vague ).
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

Ladislaus · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2015, 06:52:52 PM »

Quote from: Pepe

A "vagus" priest is one who is not under the authority of any bishop.

Sorry, but a "vagus" priest is a priest who is not under the authority of bishop who himself has authority in the Church, aka jurisdiction. SSPX priests are vagi.

John Steven · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2015, 07:17:06 PM »

Quote from: Pepe

Quote from: MaterDominici
Quote from: confederate catholic
the difference Mater between KY. and the SSPX is that the SSPX was founded canonically. although if there is no way for KY to be recognized.......

Quote
The entire SSPX is often described as "vagus", so why pick on Boston, KY?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but even their canonical establishment was to form priests who would then be incardinated into a diocese. Other than the first few who did indeed join a diocese, the rest all become "vagus" as soon as they take an "assignment" from the SSPX which has no authority to do so.

Dear MD,

A "vagus" priest is one who is not under the authority of any bishop. The SSPX priests are all under the authority of Bishop Fellay, who is their SG and who gives each of them a valid celebret, signed by him. The priests of the resistance are not under the authority of either Bishops Williamson or Faure or God forbid "Bishop Ambrose" and they do not (and cannot) carry celebrets issued by them. It's ridiculous to even suggest that they are still subject to Bishop Fellay. End of.

And what bishop were the SSPX priests under when Fr. Schmidberger was SG?

John Steven · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2015, 07:54:50 PM »

Quote from: John Steven

Quote from: Pepe
Quote from: MaterDominici
Quote from: confederate catholic
the difference Mater between KY. and the SSPX is that the SSPX was founded canonically. although if there is no way for KY to be recognized.......

Quote
The entire SSPX is often described as "vagus", so why pick on Boston, KY?

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but even their canonical establishment was to form priests who would then be incardinated into a diocese. Other than the first few who did indeed join a diocese, the rest all become "vagus" as soon as they take an "assignment" from the SSPX which has no authority to do so.

Dear MD,

A "vagus" priest is one who is not under the authority of any bishop. The SSPX priests are all under the authority of Bishop Fellay, who is their SG and who gives each of them a valid celebret, signed by him. The priests of the resistance are not under the authority of either Bishops Williamson or Faure or God forbid "Bishop Ambrose" and they do not (and cannot) carry celebrets issued by them. It's ridiculous to even suggest that they are still subject to Bishop Fellay. End of.

And what bishop were the SSPX priests under when Fr. Schmidberger was SG?

So someone thumbs this question down without even bothering to reply? Like, wow. I'll answer the question for you: they were and are under the authority of a SG, not a bishop. I can already hear the objection that they had ABL. Well, that still leaves us with the period of 91-94 when ABL had died, but Fr Schmidberger was still the SG.

ihsv · « **Reply #20 on:** October 20, 2015, 08:37:07 PM »

Quote from: John Steven

So someone thumbs this question down without even bothering to reply? Like, wow. I'll answer the question for you: they were and are under the authority of a SG, not a bishop. I can already hear the objection that they had ABL. Well, that still leaves us with the period of 91-94 when ABL had died, but Fr Schmidberger was still the SG.

That must have been me. My intention was to thumb it up, not down. There's no way to "undo" it that I'm aware of, unfortunately.

I didn't even realize it was a thumb down till I came back to the thread just now.

JPaul · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2015, 08:37:21 PM »

A meaningless discussion. Almost all of legitimate Tradition, save a few exceptions has objectively operated outside of the Church's law in one fashion or another since the false council.

It is applying normal requirements in an abnormal situation.

IN VERITATE VICTORIA · « **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:33:51 AM »

Quote from: J.Paul

A meaningless discussion. Almost all of legitimate Tradition, save a few exceptions has objectively operated outside of the Church's law in one fashion or another since the false council.

It is applying normal requirements in an abnormal situation.

That's an absolute cop-out! Same mind-set as Synod15 in the Vatican.... "Let's not apply the normal requirements of marriage on couples in today's abnormal chaotic world...." ABL always insisted on authority and structure for his priests and every one of them, without exception, had/has a superior to answer to. You can't have priests running around like wild cats, doing whatever they like, with no superior to correct them!

Ladislaus · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:44:52 AM »

Quote from: John Steven

So someone thumbs this question down without even bothering to reply? Like, wow.

That's typical behavior around here.

Quote

I'll answer the question for you: they were and are under the authority of a SG, not a bishop. I can already hear the objection that they had ABL. Well, that still leaves us with the period of 91-94 when ABL had died, but Fr Schmidberger was still the SG.

Whether they were/are under an SSPX bishop or under Father Schmidberger, they were/are still vagi because neither the bishop nor Father Schmidberger have any formal jurisdiction. Jurisdiction is not supplied for structure/hierarchy/authority but only for the Sacraments due to the needs of the faithful.

confederate catholic · « **Reply #24 on:** October 21, 2015, 12:03:21 PM »

Quote

Whether they were/are under an SSPX bishop or under Father Schmidberger, they were/are still vagi because neither the bishop nor Father Schmidberger have any formal jurisdiction. Jurisdiction is not supplied for structure/hierarchy/authority but only for the Sacraments due to the needs of the faithful

true, the only time they were not was in the beginning

JPaul · « **Reply #25 on:** October 21, 2015, 08:08:50 PM »

Quote from: IN VERITATE VICTORIA

Quote from: J.Paul
A meaningless discussion. Almost all of legitimate Tradition, save a few exceptions has objectively operated outside of the Church's law in one fashion or another since the false council.

It is applying normal requirements in an abnormal situation.

That's an absolute cop-out! Same mind-set as Synod15 in the Vatican.... "Let's not apply the normal requirements of marriage on couples in today's abnormal chaotic world...." ABL always insisted on authority and structure for his priests and every one of them, without exception, had/has a superior to answer to. You can't have priests running around like wild cats, doing whatever they like, with no superior to correct them!

ABL could organize and form a structure but he could not give what was not his to give, the authority of the Church. They have no superior to correct them since the demise of the Archbishop. The SSPX bishops all suffer from the same deficit as do the priests.

IN VERITATE VICTORIA · « **Reply #26 on:** October 22, 2015, 10:51:06 AM »

Quote from: J.Paul

Quote from: IN VERITATE VICTORIA
Quote from: J.Paul
A meaningless discussion. Almost all of legitimate Tradition, save a few exceptions has objectively operated outside of the Church's law in one fashion or another since the false council.

It is applying normal requirements in an abnormal situation.

That's an absolute cop-out! Same mind-set as Synod15 in the Vatican.... "Let's not apply the normal requirements of marriage on couples in today's abnormal chaotic world...." ABL always insisted on authority and structure for his priests and every one of them, without exception, had/has a superior to answer to. You can't have priests running around like wild cats, doing whatever they like, with no superior to correct them!

ABL could organize and form a structure but he could not give what was not his to give, the authority of the Church. They have no superior to correct them since the demise of the Archbishop. The SSPX bishops all suffer from the same deficit as do the priests.

Isn't it amazing that the priests and bishops of the resistance all accepted the authority of the SSPX, from the time they entered the seminary, through to their daily lives at the various priories, following the rota for Masses and vacations laid down by their superiors and then suddenly, when they leave the SSPX, it never had any authority over them at all! Talk about double standards......

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** October 22, 2015, 11:01:14 AM »

Quote from: IN VERITATE VICTORIA

Quote from: J.Paul
Quote from: IN VERITATE VICTORIA
Quote from: J.Paul
A meaningless discussion. Almost all of legitimate Tradition, save a few exceptions has objectively operated outside of the Church's law in one fashion or another since the false council.

It is applying normal requirements in an abnormal situation.

That's an absolute cop-out! Same mind-set as Synod15 in the Vatican.... "Let's not apply the normal requirements of marriage on couples in today's abnormal chaotic world...." ABL always insisted on authority and structure for his priests and every one of them, without exception, had/has a superior to answer to. You can't have priests running around like wild cats, doing whatever they like, with no superior to correct them!

ABL could organize and form a structure but he could not give what was not his to give, the authority of the Church. They have no superior to correct them since the demise of the Archbishop. The SSPX bishops all suffer from the same deficit as do the priests.

Isn't it amazing that the priests and bishops of the resistance all accepted the authority of the SSPX, from the time they entered the seminary, through to their daily lives at the various priories, following the rota for Masses and vacations laid down by their superiors and then suddenly, when they leave the SSPX, it never had any authority over them at all! Talk about double standards......

No, if anyone follows their SSPX superiors, it's purely voluntarily or due to some sense of their having a moral authority. We're discussing the term vagus here in its canonical sense.

Raphaela · « **Reply #28 on:** October 22, 2015, 02:30:51 PM »

The traditional movement depended entirely on priests with no bishop and no superior before the first SSPX priests were ordained in the 1970's. Archbishop Lefebvre was always happy to work with them both before and after that time. At random:

In England:
Fr. Gordon Bancks
Fr. Thomas Glover
Fr. Oswald Baker

In USA:
Fr. Hector Bolduc
Fr. Urban Snyder
Fr. Ronald Ringrose

In France:
Fr. Louis Coache
Mgr Francois Ducaud-Bourget
Dom Edouard Guillou

In Germany:
Fr. Hans Milch
Fr. Gregor Hesse

And there were many others. Extraordinary times need extraordinary measures.

JMacQ · « **Reply #29 on:** October 22, 2015, 04:18:27 PM »

Father Hector Bolduc was ordained by His Grace. Father Hesse was ordained Novus Ordo in the early eighties. Many of the other priests I am told placed themselves under the protection of His Grace. Just saying. I must add that I never understood the background and situation of Fr. Hesse, and same for Fr. Kramer.