Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => SSPX Resistance News => Topic started by: RomanCatholic1953 on September 15, 2020, 06:56:35 PM
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Archbishop Vigano to Traditional Catholics Stay and Fight:
http://www.theeponymousflower.com/2020/09/abp-vigano-to-catholic-traditionalists.html
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As one of the commentators pointed out, it's quite a confusing article. The author(not Vigano) simultaneously tells the reader to stay in their parish while also praising and defending the SSPX. But SSPX churches are not parochial. So does the author condemn abandoning the parish church for the SSPX or not?
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As one of the commentators pointed out, it's quite a confusing article. The author(not Vigano) simultaneously tells the reader to stay in their parish while also praising and defending the SSPX. But SSPX churches are not parochial. So does the author condemn abandoning the parish church for the SSPX or not?
That is confusing. Now, its possible that he sees the regular SSPX as being more legitimate than some of the "more fringe" groups like SSPX MC, SSPV, CMRI, or independents that have no recognition from Rome at all. Now he didn't say this, and I'm only guessing, and he could've clarified if that's what he meant.
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Like I understand and respect why one might attend an independent, SSPV, (etc.) chapel for all sorts of reasons. But Rome has *specifically* said that people are allowed to attend the SSPX. like they were asked about it in the 1990s, and they said in the strict sense you could go, and that it would fulfill your sunday obligation. So its easy to imagine why someone could see that situation as canonically preferable, agree or not.
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I found nothing confusing about it at all:
He is condemning the sedevacantist urge to leave the Catholic Church.
He believes they are schismatics, while the SSPX and Resistance (and various independents) remain Catholic fighters.
Don't shoot the messenger, but I thought this was pretty clear.
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I found nothing confusing about it at all:
He is condemning the sedevacantist urge to leave the Catholic Church.
He believes they are schismatics, while the SSPX and Resistance (and various independents) remain Catholic fighters.
Don't shoot the messenger, but I thought this was pretty clear.
That's what Vigano said. The writer said to stay at your parish church.
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If there is any confusion here, it is because of the misleading commentary by David Martin, the author of the linked article. Martin, who is obviously no Trad but instead a sort of conservative conciliarist, puts words into ++Viganò's mouth and spins them into something that accords with Martin's own opinions but is alien to the archbishop's plain meaning and intent. Those with a genuine interest in what ++Viganò thinks should read his reply to Kokx's questions and pay Martin no heed whatsoever.
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I'm not confused at all, but David Martin seems to be.
+Vigano is saying, "Don't leave the Church," meaning "Don't stop practicing [traditional] Catholicism just because others, including most priests, have hijacked the Faith." In which part that was quoted did Vigano say, "Do not leave your parish"?
A parish is a location. I wish people would stop being glued to specific locations. Be glued to the True Faith, the True Mass, and to those leaders who know the difference between the latter and New Church. If those happen to characterize your parish, then your parish is a safe place to stay as long as it continues not to waiver in those respects. Those locations could be an apostolate or an independent chapel. I didn't read that +Vigano said, "Do not go to an independent chapel." Did I read it too quickly?
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This sounds familiar to the story of the Acadians of the 1600's who lived in Novas Scotia. The British come to Novas Scotia and tell the people, King George is now over your area. We will not hurt you. Don't leave. Just take care of us and we will let you continue with your rituals.
While that all took place, ships were being built to take care of these papists. It took 50 years, but the ships came. The men were in the fields the women and children were rounded up put on the ships with warm blankets with small pox. The Catholics were dropped off along the Atlantic coast just left to rot.
Now, how is this like Vigano saying stay and fight. I say Bologna! Who would in their right mind listen to stay in the New Order councilor church? Our Lady said Rome would lose it's faith. Well, that is a done deal. Who would follow the New Order who stands by the Heretical Mess, and tells you to stay and fight for it?!
Our Lady stands on the Right hand side of Her Son. There can not be but only One True Deposit of Faith, Mass.
So, why do you stay? Because "they want your money and to continue indoctrination". Fight for who or what!?
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An another Great Article:
Vigano: "Francis Did Not React In The Slightest",
https://www.gloria.tv/post/HrykVJbibhAQ1dhZdTiE2wmcG
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This sounds familiar to the story of the Acadians of the 1600's who lived in Novas Scotia. The British come to Novas Scotia and tell the people, King George is now over your area. We will not hurt you. Don't leave. Just take care of us and we will let you continue with your rituals.
While that all took place, ships were being built to take care of these papists. It took 50 years, but the ships came. The men were in the fields the women and children were rounded up put on the ships with warm blankets with small pox. The Catholics were dropped off along the Atlantic coast just left to rot.
Now, how is this like Vigano saying stay and fight. I say Bologna! Who would in their right mind listen to stay in the New Order councilor church? Our Lady said Rome would lose it's faith. Well, that is a done deal. Who would follow the New Order who stands by the Heretical Mess, and tells you to stay and fight for it?!
Our Lady stands on the Right hand side of Her Son. There can not be but only One True Deposit of Faith, Mass.
So, why do you stay? Because "they want your money and to continue indoctrination". Fight for who or what!?
Why are you trying to get Catholics to support the conciliar church?
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Well there is less and less for the NO trad to stay for anyway. It seems that the Ecclesia Dei communities are no longer on solid ground and will be returned to indult status at the whim of the local Bishop; I hear as early as October.
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I don't support the councilor church, Viagano does.
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I don't support the councilor church, Viagano does.
You are obviously a Jєωιѕн troll, angling to suck all trads into conciliarism. Please quit advocating the new Mass and championing Vatican II here.
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Why are you trying to get Catholics to support the conciliar church?
:confused:
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Why are you trying to get Catholics to support the conciliar church?
Now, how is this like Vigano saying stay and fight. I say Bologna! Who would in their right mind listen to stay in the New Order councilor church? Our Lady said Rome would lose it's faith. Well, that is a done deal. Who would follow the New Order who stands by the Heretical Mess, and tells you to stay and fight for it?!
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Yes, I do not understand why Songbird loves the Novus Ordo, and wants to lead people into conciliarism. Very confusing. Must be Opus Dei.
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Sean, I'm even more confused now by your response.
Those are songbirds own words. If anything, she's leaning towards sede vacante.
From 2016:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/sedevacantism-101/msg517551/#msg517551
We know for sure that those who excommunicate themselves are not to be followed, or we too shall excommunicate ourselves.
All those who do the the New Order, follow the new order are excommunicated. You will know them by their fruits.
Now, if the clergy are excommunicated, by their own desires, they are not followers of Christ. Very simple.
They say an adulterated mess, no Precious Blood! I can't think of anything so rotten as that!
Some may call it sedevacantism but excommunication is where "they" are. You can not follow them or excommunicate yourself.
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Sean, I'm even more confused now by your response.
Those are songbirds own words. If anything, she's leaning towards sede vacante.
From 2016:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/sedevacantism-101/msg517551/#msg517551
Yes, Songbird is very confusing. Definitely don't understand why she thinks we all need to rush into the conciliar church. I wouldn't trust her.
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Songbird is very confusing. … I wouldn't trust her.
I hear you. Among other things, no one who confuses "baloney" (= foolishness, nonsense) with Italy's ancient university city is to be trusted!
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Why are you trying to get Catholics to support the conciliar church?
She's not. She's suggesting Vigano's call to "stay in the Church" is a call to reconcile with the Conciliar Church, and one that will lead to Trads being betrayed by the Conciliar Church in the same way the Brits betrayed the Acadians. She might be wrong in her interpretation of Vigano's message, but it's literally the opposite of supporting the Conciliar Church.
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She's not. She's suggesting Vigano's call to "stay in the Church" is a call to reconcile with the Conciliar Church, and one that will lead to Trads being betrayed by the Conciliar Church in the same way the Brits betrayed the Acadians. She might be wrong in her interpretation of Vigano's message, but it's literally the opposite of supporting the Conciliar Church.
Hmm. This is very confusing. I think Songbird must be controlled by Opus Dei Jєωs. Yes, that’s clear enough. Hopefully she can clear up all her confusing contradictions. I just don’t understand why she loves Vatican II so much. Why does she want us to become conciliarists and accept the new theology? Very confusing.
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OK, I’m done trolling Songbird now.
Just wanted to give her a taste of her own medicine by attributing positions to her she clearly doesn’t hold (ie., just as she is doing to Vigano).
It seems there is a certain strain of sede that doesn’t want to understand the eminently clear and straightforward R&R position of Vigano, and desires to sow confusion where perfect clarity exists (at least for those not poisoned by sede ecclesiology).
I am content now to let that strain continue confusing each other, acting as if they had just heard the Chewbacca defense, but note the new tactic:
If Vigano is not sede, he is a priori confusing, contradictory, and conciliarist.
Puhlease.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=34Em8BkZYnI (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=34Em8BkZYnI)
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It seems there is a certain strain of sede that doesn’t want to understand the eminently clear and straightforward R&R position of Viganò, and desires to sow confusion where perfect clarity exists (at least for those not poisoned by sede ecclesiology).
A year ago I might have said that you were overstating the case here, but now I'm afraid I agree. The sede faction on this site used to complain bitterly of the intolerance of those holding the R&R position,* but having now gained a strong footing themselves, they are disinclined to extend respect or even courtesy to those they disagree with.
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*It shouldn't be forgotten that "recognize and resist" is in its origins a sneer term coined by sedevacantists in mockery of the entirely reasonable conclusion that the problem of evil—specifically, evil in ordained and consecrated clergy and prelates—cannot be solved by laymen who simply and uncanonically accord themselves the authority to declare the pope and the bishops no longer legitimate holders of their seats. Because the term accurately describes what Fr. Gommar DePauw, Archbishop Lefebvre, and thousands upon thousands of other Traditional Catholics believed and acted upon, the sneer has been turned on its head and is now worn as a badge of honor.
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OK, I’m done trolling Songbird now.
Just wanted to give her a taste of her own medicine by attributing positions to her she clearly doesn’t hold (ie., just as she is doing to Vigano).
It seems there is a certain strain of sede that doesn’t want to understand the eminently clear and straightforward R&R position of Vigano, and desires to sow confusion where perfect clarity exists (at least for those not poisoned by sede ecclesiology).
I am content now to let that strain continue confusing each other, acting as if they had just heard the Chewbacca defense, but note the new tactic:
If Vigano is not sede, he is a priori confusing, contradictory, and conciliarist.
Puhlease.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=34Em8BkZYnI (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=34Em8BkZYnI)
Now I get it!
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Forlorn has me understood.
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A year ago I might have said that you were overstating the case here, but now I'm afraid I agree. The sede faction on this site used to complain bitterly of the intolerance of those holding the R&R position,* but having now gained a strong footing themselves, they are disinclined to extend respect or even courtesy to those they disagree with.
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*It shouldn't be forgotten that "recognize and resist" is in its origins a sneer term coined by sedevacantists in mockery of the entirely reasonable conclusion that the problem of evil—specifically, evil in ordained and consecrated clergy and prelates—cannot be solved by laymen who simply and uncanonically accord themselves the authority to declare the pope and the bishops no longer legitimate holders of their seats. Because the term accurately describes what Fr. Gommar DePauw, Archbishop Lefebvre, and thousands upon thousands of other Traditional Catholics believed and acted upon, the sneer has been turned on its head and is now worn as a badge of honor.
Exactly.
They were allowed to gain a strong footing, IMO.