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Author Topic: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'  (Read 1880 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2020, 09:25:37 AM »
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    • I wanted to also mention that back during the Arian crisis in the Church, St. Athanasius wasn't alone in defending truth against the Arian heresy. He had many allies, including saints. There needs to be more like Vigano in order for the Modernist heresy to be defeated. Many more. 

    Our Lord and Lady also need to be appealed to, in earnest. Without them, nothing will change. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #31 on: June 19, 2020, 11:40:05 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 19, 2020, 08:57:24 AM
    However, the enemies of Christ in the conciliar church may not fear Vigano unless Vigano's many communications result in other conciliar church hierarchy members also refuting Vll and the conciliar revolution. I've not seen that that's happened yet.

    Well, it does sound like he's trying to win Bishop Schneider over on the question.  But, you're right, there aren't too many candidates in the hierarchy there who would be receptive to this.  Where his impact would be would be among the lay people of good faith; there are still some out there who fear breaking submission on their own but might follow the lead of a high-ranking prelate.  Bergoglio has stacked the hierarchy and Cardinalate with a bunch of heretics and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #32 on: June 19, 2020, 05:02:27 PM »
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    • Just because Vigano speaks up, doesn't mean anything will come of it.

    I picture Vigano as just talking to talk. To give us the impression that he is going to do something about 50 years or more of perverts who are clergy?!

    To give us the impression that we can put him up on a pedestal?!  Like there are a few good clergy in the vipers nest?!
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #33 on: June 19, 2020, 05:56:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on June 19, 2020, 05:02:27 PM
    Just because Vigano speaks up, doesn't mean anything will come of it.

    I picture Vigano as just talking to talk. To give us the impression that he is going to do something about 50 years or more of perverts who are clergy?!

    To give us the impression that we can put him up on a pedestal?!  Like there are a few good clergy in the vipers nest?!

    Nonsense.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #34 on: June 19, 2020, 06:04:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 19, 2020, 05:56:14 PM
    Nonsense.


    Have you read that Randy Engel piece on Louis Verrecchio's site from 2018 about Vigano? It was linked two or so days ago in the other Vigano thread by andy.

    This whole pile of Vigano letters may be an Opus Dei political media stunt. Novus Ordo political b*tch war.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #35 on: June 20, 2020, 06:19:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 19, 2020, 06:04:43 PM

    Have you read that Randy Engel piece on Louis Verrecchio's site from 2018 about Vigano? It was linked two or so days ago in the other Vigano thread by andy.

    This whole pile of Vigano letters may be an Opus Dei political media stunt. Novus Ordo political b*tch war.

    Interesting that AndyS put up a link to an article that is critical (I assume) of Vigano. AndyS holds the same position as you do regarding Vigano, is that correct?

    Why would Opus Dei write Vigano's letters as a political media stunt?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #36 on: June 20, 2020, 06:59:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 20, 2020, 06:19:21 AM
    Interesting that AndyS put up a link to an article that is critical (I assume) of Vigano.

    Not AndyS but andy: andy's post


    Quote from: Meg on June 20, 2020, 06:19:21 AM
    AndyS holds the same position as you do regarding Vigano, is that correct?

    I don't hold any position regarding Viganò. So far I've been speculating. I am not aware of a position of AndyS.



    Quote from: Meg on June 20, 2020, 06:19:21 AM
    Why would Opus Dei write Vigano's letters as a political media stunt?

    See that Randy Engel piece.
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #37 on: June 20, 2020, 07:47:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 20, 2020, 06:59:58 AM
    Not AndyS but andy: andy's post


    I don't hold any position regarding Viganò. So far I've been speculating. I am not aware of a position of AndyS.



    See that Randy Engel piece.

    My apologies for getting the wrong Andy. Thanks for the correction.

    I read most of the Randy Engel piece that was linked to. The info, if correct is disturbing. I don't trust Randy Engel to actually assess any situation objectively, since in the past she has asserted many things that can't be proven. She speculates a lot. However, if her research is correct, then Vigano may indeed have an Opus Dei connection himself, but she hasn't found a direct personal connection of Vigano to Opus Dei.

    She says that Aldo Maria Valli was the first to publish Vigano's testimony, and that Valli is a member of Opus Dei. She also says that Marco Tosatti has connections to Opus Dei in that he has been supportive of Opus Dei members and causes, and that Valli himself says that he has been influenced by Esciva's writings. (So probably not member of opus Dei, but a fan).

    Engel also says that Opus Dei has established or taken over EWTN, National Catholic Register and Lifesite News.

    She says, regarding Vigano's top two ghostwriters:
    "Thus far, this writer has concretely docuмented that Vigano's top two ghostwriters have serious connections to Opus Dei, as has the official translator of Viganos works."

    Engel also writes about Vigano's interference with the diocesan investigation into Nienstadt. She contends that if Vigano really cares about the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ problems in the Church, then he should correct his former stance reagarding Nienstadt (or words to that effect).

    So all in all, Engel's article brings up some really good questions.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #38 on: June 20, 2020, 08:14:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 19, 2020, 06:04:43 PM

    Have you read that Randy Engel piece on Louis Verrecchio's site from 2018 about Vigano? It was linked two or so days ago in the other Vigano thread by andy.

    This whole pile of Vigano letters may be an Opus Dei political media stunt. Novus Ordo political b*tch war.

    You have some big schismatic stick up your posterior about +Vigano.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #39 on: June 20, 2020, 08:57:09 AM »
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    • https://books.google.com/books?id=9p0_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA196&lpg=PA196&dq=negative+doubt,+moral+theology&source=bl&ots=dU63pxtpv9&sig=ACfU3U2zV3QeRZmTUdPN4iVpDzMRhsuAcQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiV5fyzxZDqAhXHHM0KHZ-lBpYQ6AEwDHoECAYQAQ

    Seeing as there is no real basis or evidence to support the Opus Dei/Vigano connection, I thought I woud copy/paste this blurb on "negative doubt" (i.e., harboring doubts without any well-founded reason).  "A negative doubt is to be despised."

    Of course, the principle is used for determining the morality of human acts (which is not under consideration here), yet it is also useful in the present case, in pointing out that ill-founded doubts are to be dismissed the same as temptations (which is almost what they are).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #40 on: June 20, 2020, 09:00:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 20, 2020, 08:57:09 AM


    Seeing as there is no real basis or evidence to support the Opus Dei/Vigano connection, I thought I woud copy/paste this blurb on "negative doubt" (i.e., harboring doubts without any well-founded reason).  "A negative doubt is to be despised."
    `
    Yes, he's basically sending his letters to be published/translated to some guy who likes Opus Dei.  That's rock solid.  It couldn't just be because he had some relationship with the man where he trusted him not to reveal his whereabouts.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #41 on: June 20, 2020, 09:02:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 20, 2020, 09:00:37 AM
    `
    Yes, he's basically sending his letters to be published/translated to some guy who likes Opus Dei.  That's rock solid.  It couldn't just be because he had some relationship with the man where he trusted him not to reveal his whereabouts.
    Agreed (especially because if Vigano WAS some Opus Dei subversive, he would certainly conceal the identity of his -alleged- Opus Dei associations and collaborators).
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #42 on: June 20, 2020, 10:39:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 20, 2020, 07:47:36 AM
    My apologies for getting the wrong Andy. Thanks for the correction.

    I read most of the Randy Engel piece that was linked to. The info, if correct is disturbing. I don't trust Randy Engel to actually assess any situation objectively, since in the past she has asserted many things that can't be proven. She speculates a lot. However, if her research is correct, then Vigano may indeed have an Opus Dei connection himself, but she hasn't found a direct personal connection of Vigano to Opus Dei.

    She says that Aldo Maria Valli was the first to publish Vigano's testimony, and that Valli is a member of Opus Dei. She also says that Marco Tosatti has connections to Opus Dei in that he has been supportive of Opus Dei members and causes, and that Valli himself says that he has been influenced by Esciva's writings. (So probably not member of opus Dei, but a fan).

    Engel also says that Opus Dei has established or taken over EWTN, National Catholic Register and Lifesite News.

    She says, regarding Vigano's top two ghostwriters:
    "Thus far, this writer has concretely docuмented that Vigano's top two ghostwriters have serious connections to Opus Dei, as has the official translator of Viganos works."

    Engel also writes about Vigano's interference with the diocesan investigation into Nienstadt. She contends that if Vigano really cares about the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ problems in the Church, then he should correct his former stance reagarding Nienstadt (or words to that effect).

    So all in all, Engel's article brings up some really good questions.


    Thank you for the summary. 
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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline songbird

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #43 on: June 20, 2020, 02:53:18 PM »
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    • Thank you very much for your post, Meg.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò: 'Heretical Propositions in Vatican II should be Condemned'
    « Reply #44 on: June 20, 2020, 03:37:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 20, 2020, 08:14:58 AM
    You have some big schismatic stick up your posterior about +Vigano.

    Why do you always get upset? Fact is, Viganò is said to have been in hiding for quite some time. One might even ask, whether all these blog-posts really are his (or of his ghostwriters in his interest), or whether he is alive at all.

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    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)
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