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Author Topic: Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre + R.I.P.  (Read 1390 times)

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Offline Twice dyed

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Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre + R.I.P.
« on: March 25, 2024, 01:04:52 PM »
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  • "Tradidi Quod et Accepi"
    +Lefebvre's Motto
    Born Nov. 29. 1905 - Died March 25, 1991 , ( Feast of the Annunciation)

    Thank God for granting the Church such a prelate, to rescue the priesthood, maintain the Latin Roman rite, and the real Sacraments. 
     + Requiéscat in pace.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Twice dyed

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  • "Tradidi Quod et Accepi"
    +Lefebvre's Motto
    Born Nov. 29. 1905 - Died March 25, 1991 , ( Feast of the Annunciation)

    Thank God for granting the Church such a prelate, to rescue the priesthood, maintain the Latin Roman rite, and the real Sacraments...
    In honor of the Birth of Mgr. Marcel Lefebvre 120 years ago, November 29, 1905,  here is a screen shot of the docuмent from an Altar Stone which he CONSECRATED at Econe in 1977.

    2 minute video describing the Altar Stone at this link:
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Mmeomo37g4I

    The Certificate translated:
    Certificate of Consecration.
      This Altar Stone was consecrated on : Oct 17, 1977, by His Excellency Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre, Titular Archbishop of SYNNADA in PHRYGIA.



    At Écone  - October 25, 1977

    (Signed) Marcel Lefebvre

    *********************

    October 17 is the Feast of St. Margaret Mary ALACOQUE, chief instrument for instituting the Feast of the Sacred HEART. Think what that means when consecrating altar stone! Great Traditions.

    As the narrator says in his Video: If there would have been no Arch Lefebvre, we wouldn't have the Latin Mass today...

    Deo Gratias+

    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)


    Offline Ladislaus

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    In honor of the Birth of Mgr. Marcel Lefebvre 120 years ago, November 29, 1905,  here is a screen shot of the docuмent from an Altar Stone which he CONSECRATED at Econe in 1977.

    2 minute video describing the Altar Stone at this link:
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Mmeomo37g4I

    The Certificate translated:
    Certificate of Consecration.
      This Altar Stone was consecrated on : Oct 17, 1977, by His Excellency Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre, Titular Archbishop of SYNNADA in PHRYGIA.



    At Écone  - October 25, 1977

    (Signed) Marcel Lefebvre

    *********************

    October 17 is the Feast of St. Margaret Mary ALACOQUE, chief instrument for instituting the Feast of the Sacred HEART. Think what that means when consecrating altar stone! Great Traditions.

    As the narrator says in his Video: If there would have been no Arch Lefebvre, we wouldn't have the Latin Mass today...

    Deo Gratias+


    So ... I find that attachment of yours quite interesting.  We were discussion the question of whether The Nine had incurred excommunication reserved to the Holy See for suing the Archbishop.  One "out" would be that it appears to require that a bishop have some title, "at least titular".  What do you see about this entry that appears contradicted by this certificate of consecration?

    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blefebvre.html

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre + R.I.P.
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 06:10:25 PM »
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  • So ... while catholic-hierarchy.org claims that +Lefebvre had resigned his titular See of Phrygia in 1970, evidently this was news to +Lefebvre, since this is in 1977 and he was still signing it as the Titular Archbishop.  Sure, Novus Ordo presbyters sell these sacred items all the time, and you can find them everywhere, but something that had been consecrated by the Archbishop when he was already a Traditionalist?  How did this get into the hands of some clown who turned it around and sold it at auction?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre + R.I.P.
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 06:15:38 PM »
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  • On a separate note ... this guy implies that he bought the stone at an auction.  How would this end up at an auction and sacrilegiously being sold?

    Yes, I know that Novus Ordo presbyters and overseers sell sacred objects all the time, but by 1977 the Archbishop would only have consecrated a stone for Traditional Catholics.  So then how did this get into the hands of some clown who sacriledgiously sold it at auction?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    So ... I find that attachment of yours quite interesting.  We were discussion the question of whether The Nine had incurred excommunication reserved to the Holy See for suing the Archbishop.  One "out" would be that it appears to require that a bishop have some title, "at least titular".  What do you see about this entry that appears contradicted by this certificate of consecration?

    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/bishop/blefebvre.html

    Also of interest is that +Lefebvre was the last one to have held this Titular See.  I wonder why it remained vacant after him.  Did he in fact resign it at all or is this some historical revisionism by the Conciliars?

    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/d3s31.html

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre + R.I.P.
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 06:42:39 PM »
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  • Interesting facts about Synnad, little town now called Suhut in West-Central Turkey (Asia Minor back then).  There's a musum there called "Ataturk's House", which served as the headquarters for that guy leading up to the "Great Offensive".  Prevost just scandalously honored Ataturk at his tomb, the latter having been a genocidal butcher behind the Armenian genocide of "Christians", including Catholics.  Among the notable early bishops of this See was St. Agapetus (not the one who was a pope), but considered a confessor and "wonder-worker".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synnada


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Marcel François Marie Joseph Lefebvre + R.I.P.
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 06:59:27 PM »
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  • I sent ChatGPT in search of the question regarding his alleged resignation, and ChatGPT indicates that the catholic-hierarchy.org citation was wrong, citing a letter written from an official Congregation in Rome, the Congregation of the Clergy, from Cardinal Wright, address to +Lefebvre in 1971, referring to him as the Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia.  It found other instances through the 1970s where +Lefebvre refers to himself as the Titular Archbishop, but by the 1980s he starts using the title "Bishop Emeritus of Tulle", though we're not sure why he switched.  But there's absolutely no proof that he resigned his Titular Archbishopric, and much evidence to the contrary.  Unforunately, that does pose a serious problem for The Nine, since Canon Law does in fact declare excommunicated, reserved to the Holy See, in a simple mode, anyone who were to take a Bishop, "even a Titular bishops", before lay court, per the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  Even if by some shenanigans Montini had stripped him of the title (thus far no evidence for this has been found), The Nine don't consider him a pope anyway, so even such a stripping would have been invalid ... having come from an Anti-Pope.


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Also of interest is that +Lefebvre was the last one to have held this Titular See.  I wonder why it remained vacant after him.  Did he in fact resign it at all or is this some historical revisionism by the Conciliars?

    https://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/d3s31.

    Sorry, I will add my thoughts later...so cold in Canada, my cell screenfreezing¥iles!

    http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Lefebvre-Mayer_Consecratio.html

    ...Ordained a Roman Catholic priest on 09/21/1929 at Lille, France, by Achille Liénart, Bishop of Lille, France. In 1931 he joined the Congregation of the Holy Ghost.
    Consecrated a Roman Catholic bishop on 09/18/1947 at Tourcoing, France, by Msgr. Achille Cardinal Liénart, Bishop of Lille, assisted by Msgr. Alfred Ancel, Titular Bishop of Myrina in Asia Minor and Auxiliary Bishop of Lyon, France, and by Msgr. Jean-Baptiste Fauret, C.S.Sp., Titular Bishop of Araxa.
    Msgr. Lefebvre was Titular Bishop of Antedone, 1947-1948, Titular Archbishop of Arcadiopolis in Europe, 1948-1955, Archbishop of Dakar, Senegal, 1955-1962, Bishop of Tulle, France, January 1962-August 1962, Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, 1962-1970. In 1970 he resigned his titular see and took the title "Archibishop-Bishop emeritus of Tulle." He was Superior General of the Congregation of the Holy Ghost (1962-68) and Superior General of the Sacerdotal Society of St. Pius X (1970-83).
    .

    • [size=+1]06/30/1988[/size] [size=+1]Bernard Fellay[/size][size=+1] (b. in 1958; still living)[/size].
      Ordained a priest for the Sacerdotal Society of St. Pius X on 06/29/1982 at Ecône, Switzerland, by Msgr. Marcel Lefebvre, retired Archbishop-Bishop of Tulle France.
      Consecrated a bishop on 06/30/1988 at Ecône, Switzerland, by Msgr. Marcel Lefebvre, retired Archbishop-Bishop of Tulle, France, assisted by Msgr.
      [/color]

    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Lefebvre-Mayer_Consecratio.html



    Boyle's wrong, merely parroting catholic-hierarchy.org.  As mentioned, Cardinal Write, Congregation of the Clergy, sent an official letter to Archbishop Lefebvre in 1971 addressing him as the Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, and +Lefebvre himself used the title through the 1970s, with this letter about the altar stone using the title in 1977.  YOU are the one who posted a picture of the certificate.  Until his death, everyone called him Archbishop Lefebvre, not Bishop Emeritus Lefebvre.

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Boyle's wrong, merely parroting catholic-hierarchy.org.  As mentioned, Cardinal Write, Congregation of the Clergy, sent an official letter to Archbishop Lefebvre in 1971 addressing him as the Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, and +Lefebvre himself used the title through the 1970s, with this letter about the altar stone using the title in 1977.  YOU are the one who posted a picture of the certificate.  Until his death, everyone called him Archbishop Lefebvre, not Bishop Emeritus Lefebvre.
    The 1977 Certificate of Consecration shows Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre as Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, a titular see that, while he never governed it, formally confirms his episcopal rank. As a validly consecrated bishop, he retained the full sacramental character and canonical protections of the episcopate. Under the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 2318 §1), any cleric who publicly attacks, incites attack against, or sues a bishop incurs latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See, and this applies regardless of whether the bishop’s title is residential, titular, or emeritus. Therefore, both the historical evidence and canon law demonstrate that Lefebvre’s episcopal status was fully intact, and no claim that a lack of a titular see could exempt The Nine from canonical penalty is valid.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    The 1977 Certificate of Consecration shows Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre as Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, a titular see that, while he never governed it, formally confirms his episcopal rank. As a validly consecrated bishop, he retained the full sacramental character and canonical protections of the episcopate. Under the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 2318 §1), any cleric who publicly attacks, incites attack against, or sues a bishop incurs latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See, and this applies regardless of whether the bishop’s title is residential, titular, or emeritus. Therefore, both the historical evidence and canon law demonstrate that Lefebvre’s episcopal status was fully intact, and no claim that a lack of a titular see could exempt The Nine from canonical penalty is valid.

    So, a blend of correct and incorrect here.  2318 refers to the Index.  You must be referring to 2341.  2341 refers not to attacks or inciting attacks, but specifically to taking a Church official to secular court.  So, apart from suing a very high ranking official, the section that's relevant is where you sue a bishop (even if merely Titular), and the penalty for a cleric is excommunication reserved to the Holy See "simpliciter" (the nuances of which vs. "speciali modo" aren't that important for our purposes).  But then you throw in the "emeritus" incorrectly.  There's no mention of "emeritus" incurring the excommunication in the 1917 code because it was in fact a Conciliar innovation, and since it was invented by Montini and The Nine did not recognize him as pope, and the argument is in fact, as per +Williamson, related to the "only Code of Canon Law they recognize" ... this renders any Montinian innovations entirely moot.  At that point, you'd also have to assess their status according to the 1983 Code of Canon Law.  So if "emeritus" is valid, then so is the 1983 Code, by which they are not excommunicated for these actions.  BUT ... judged in the light of both 1917 Code still being valid and the Conciliar papal claimants being illegitimate, +Lefebvre retained his titular title, and therefore the excommunication reserved to the Holy See would in fact have applied to their actions.  You are completely wrong that a lack of a Titular See would not exempt from the penalty, since it's stated quite explicitly in the Canon.  It's just that a claim that he lacked a Titular See doesn't fly.  Prior to Vatican II, every auxiliar bishop received one, and then once a bishop resigned from his Diocese, he took received one.  +Lefebvre was granted one because the Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers should has a certain amount jurisdiction similar to that of a personal prelature, but was not restricted to a locality per se.  Now, Montini could very well have stripped him of a Titular Title in 1976 when he suspended him, though there's no record of his having explicitly done so ... but, once again, in the paradigm of The Nine, anything Montini did was moot anyway.

    IF in fact the 1917 Code of Canon Law remains in force and the Conciliar papal claimants have been illegitimate Anti-Popes, +Lefebvre retained his Titular See until death, and they did in fact incur excommunication reserved to the Holy See by taking the Archbishop to court.

    Now, here's the tricky part for them.  Even IF the Conciliar papal claimants were legit, as was the 1983 Code, even though Wojtyla promulgated the 1983 Code in January 1983, he explicited stated that the 1917 Code remained in force until the 1983 Code took effect in late November of 1983.  But the legal proceedings by The Nine were initiated by the Summer of 1983.  So, Bishop Williamson was a bit off, since whether or not other people recognize, that Code is moot regardless, since it had not taken effect until November 27, 1983.

    Now, the one final condition condition in that Canon had to do with it only applying to matters related to the exercise of their office.  This piece must be researched, and I don't know the answer, but if interpreted strictly, establishing churches in the United States fell outside the specific duties of a Titular Archbishop of Phrygia, but then that expression could and most likely does, IMO, refer to any ecclesiastical activity ... as opposed to entirely personal matter.  So, for instance, if Archbishop Lefebvre had been driving a car and crashed into a cleric's car, the cleric would not incur the penalty if he took him too court to pay for damages to his vehicle, even though that would still be highly unbecomming and contrary to the spirit of the law.  But setting up chapels, missions, schools in the US did in fact pertain generally to ecclesiastical, rather than to personal, matters, and therefore would fall under the penalty of the Canon, especially if you believe that his duties as bishop required him to take these actions given a vacancy of the Holy See.

    So the window for an attempt to claim they were not excommunicated has shrunk to requiring a loose interpretation of the one qualifier in the Canon Law regarding the matters having to be related to the exercise of his office.

    Offline Twice dyed

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    Boyle's wrong, merely parroting catholic-hierarchy.org.  As mentioned, Cardinal Write, Congregation of the Clergy, sent an official letter to Archbishop Lefebvre in 1971 addressing him as the Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, and +Lefebvre himself used the title through the 1970s, with this letter about the altar stone using the title in 1977.  YOU are the one who posted a picture of the certificate.  Until his death, everyone called him Archbishop Lefebvre, not Bishop Emeritus
    http://www.archbishoplefebvre.com/in-his-own-words.html

    I am having awful time posting., so sorry, slow internet


    The address given by His Grace, the Most Reverend Marcel Lefebvre, Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia and Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X, on the occasion of the community celebration of his seventieth birthday, 29 November 1975, at the International Seminary of Saint Pius X, Ecône, Switzerland:


    "During the course of my life, I have had many consolations, in every position given to me, from young curate at Marais-de-Lomme in the Diocese of Lille, to the Apostolic Delegation of Dakar. I used to say when I was Apostolic Delegate that, from then on, I could only go downwards, I could go no higher; it was not possible...."
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    So, a blend of correct and incorrect here.  2318 refers to the Index.  You must be referring to 2341.  2341 refers not to attacks or inciting attacks, but specifically to taking a Church official to secular court.  So, apart from suing a very high ranking official, the section that's relevant is where you sue a bishop (even if merely Titular), and the penalty for a cleric is excommunication reserved to the Holy See "simpliciter" (the nuances of which vs. "speciali modo" aren't that important for our purposes).  But then you throw in the "emeritus" incorrectly.  There's no mention of "emeritus" incurring the excommunication in the 1917 code because it was in fact a Conciliar innovation, and since it was invented by Montini and The Nine did not recognize him as pope, and the argument is in fact, as per +Williamson, related to the "only Code of Canon Law they recognize" ... this renders any Montinian innovations entirely moot.  At that point, you'd also have to assess their status according to the 1983 Code of Canon Law.  So if "emeritus" is valid, then so is the 1983 Code, by which they are not excommunicated for these actions.  BUT ... judged in the light of both 1917 Code still being valid and the Conciliar papal claimants being illegitimate, +Lefebvre retained his titular title, and therefore the excommunication reserved to the Holy See would in fact have applied to their actions.  You are completely wrong that a lack of a Titular See would not exempt from the penalty, since it's stated quite explicitly in the Canon.  It's just that a claim that he lacked a Titular See doesn't fly.  Prior to Vatican II, every auxiliar bishop received one, and then once a bishop resigned from his Diocese, he took received one.  +Lefebvre was granted one because the Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers should has a certain amount jurisdiction similar to that of a personal prelature, but was not restricted to a locality per se.  Now, Montini could very well have stripped him of a Titular Title in 1976 when he suspended him, though there's no record of his having explicitly done so ... but, once again, in the paradigm of The Nine, anything Montini did was moot anyway.

    IF in fact the 1917 Code of Canon Law remains in force and the Conciliar papal claimants have been illegitimate Anti-Popes, +Lefebvre retained his Titular See until death, and they did in fact incur excommunication reserved to the Holy See by taking the Archbishop to court.

    Now, here's the tricky part for them.  Even IF the Conciliar papal claimants were legit, as was the 1983 Code, even though Wojtyla promulgated the 1983 Code in January 1983, he explicited stated that the 1917 Code remained in force until the 1983 Code took effect in late November of 1983.  But the legal proceedings by The Nine were initiated by the Summer of 1983.  So, Bishop Williamson was a bit off, since whether or not other people recognize, that Code is moot regardless, since it had not taken effect until November 27, 1983.

    Now, the one final condition condition in that Canon had to do with it only applying to matters related to the exercise of their office.  This piece must be researched, and I don't know the answer, but if interpreted strictly, establishing churches in the United States fell outside the specific duties of a Titular Archbishop of Phrygia, but then that expression could and most likely does, IMO, refer to any ecclesiastical activity ... as opposed to entirely personal matter.  So, for instance, if Archbishop Lefebvre had been driving a car and crashed into a cleric's car, the cleric would not incur the penalty if he took him too court to pay for damages to his vehicle, even though that would still be highly unbecomming and contrary to the spirit of the law.  But setting up chapels, missions, schools in the US did in fact pertain generally to ecclesiastical, rather than to personal, matters, and therefore would fall under the penalty of the Canon, especially if you believe that his duties as bishop required him to take these actions given a vacancy of the Holy See.

    So the window for an attempt to claim they were not excommunicated has shrunk to requiring a loose interpretation of the one qualifier in the Canon Law regarding the matters having to be related to the exercise of his office.
    I have corrected it to reflect the points below, including the proper canon number, the relevance of Lefebvre’s titular see, the timing of the 1917 Code, and the exercise of office nuance.


    The 1977 Certificate of Consecration shows Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre as Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, a titular see that, while he never governed it, formally confirms his episcopal rank. As a validly consecrated bishop, he retained the full sacramental character and canonical protections of the episcopate. Under the 1917 Code of Canon Law (Canon 2341 §1), any cleric who sues a bishop, residential or titular, in a secular court incurs latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See simpliciter, and the concept of “emeritus” is irrelevant under that Code. The 1917 Code was still in force in the summer of 1983, when The Nine initiated their lawsuit, before the 1983 Code took effect. Assuming the lawsuit pertained to actions within the scope of Lefebvre’s episcopal duties, such as establishing chapels, missions, or schools, Canon 2341 would fully apply. Therefore, both the historical evidence and canon law demonstrate that Lefebvre’s episcopal status was fully intact, and any claim that a lack of a titular see could exempt The Nine from canonical penalty is invalid.


    Offline Twice dyed

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    Boyle's wrong, merely parroting catholic-hierarchy.org.  As mentioned, Cardinal Write, Congregation of the Clergy, sent an official letter to Archbishop Lefebvre in 1971 addressing him as the Titular Archbishop of Synnada in Phrygia, and +Lefebvre himself used the title through the 1970s, with this letter about the altar stone using the title in 1977. ...


    So this Audio of Nov 11, 1975 in Montreal ( posted March 9, 2016) by Fsspx has this tiny write -up on the page, (my translation):
    ...then Archbishop -Bishop emeritus of Tulle, archbishop in partibus of Synnada in Phrygia...

    Sspx was using that term /Synnada regularly, from what I gather.

    Audio only, about 18 minutes short✝️
    Bonsoir !
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)